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[Blastback]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Doubtful. The Arishok was a good character reminiscent of Loghain -- more Well-Intentioned Extremist and either Anti-Villain/Anti-Hero IMO for the both of them, though I may be using the latter terms wrong -- but then Bioware made Act 3 fall apart by poorly designing it.

A fact they have, thankfully, admitted.

The Arishok wasn't perfectly executed IMO, but he was done well enough. There were only a few minor things I would've changed about him, like having him meet with Meredith a few times and discussing certain things.

But otherwise? Good character.

I doubt we'll get another Arishok/Loghain ever again.

How come?

[EssEeeEcks]

Logain I think would be getting to the point where the taint completely wrecks the body. Arishok could reappear if he isn't dead.

[Mr.House]

Hopefully. Loghain and Arishok where great villains(though they did have some issues)

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Dasher1010 wrote...

A villain who drives the plot and stands in the way of the player and gives the quest meaning? That's what DAIII needs. Period.

Just because it worked for Origins doesn't mean it will work for DA3.

[drake heath]

I'd like a villain that's introduced at the beginning and isn't killed halfway through the game.

I don't even consider DA2 as having a main villian.

Modifié par drake heath, 17 septembre 2012 - 09:53 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Too video gam- wait wrong forum.

[Cobra5]

Good villains is something sorely lacking from western RPGs. The best stories are the ones that are personal- its not a an army or a threat you are working to stop, its a person, directly opposed to you.

Consider Baldur's Gate for example... thrown around on these forums and in the gaming community in general as extremely high caliber storytelling games... You have Sarevok in the first one and (especially) Jon Irenicus in the second one. Irenicus especially is the perfect example of how its "done right". He's so much stronger then you, and he's clearly evil but not just for evil's sake. And you are tied up with him whether you want to be or not. He took your soul- its personal. He's a step ahead of you constantly but not always out of reach- but even if you catch him, you're not quite sure how you'd stop him, as strong as he is...

Saren was the last great bad guy Bioware did. Loghain was cool but you met him like, twice, and other then his initial back stab he didn't actually do anything. He was ultimately just a stepping stone on your way to fight the darkspawn, more of a chore then a real villain.

Saren was well done, but didn't have as much presence as he needed to. He never really bothered you past the first hour or so of the game, and then again at the very end. But you did hear about him a lot, and that was good enough. Moreover, he had two very important qualities in a villain: He was like the main character but "better" (At least at first) and he actually had a reason to be evil.

In the first, he's basically a more experienced Shepard. He was a spectre first, he had done a bunch of crazy missions like Shepard has/is going to. He seems potentially stronger then Shepard but still on the same level. On the second, he did think what he was doing was the right thing, that joining the reapers was the only alternative to total annihilation... so even if he is evil, you have a reason to stand up and say why you're good.

The other two mass effects totally lacked villains. It seemed like they were grooming up harbringer to be a villain, who all of the sudden disappeared for some reason. I'm not sure he would've been a good choice anyway... he was a nice voice to argue with, and yeah, Shepard killed sovereign but... he wasn't really an antagonist, which is the important part. He had no reason to be evil, to the players knowledge, other then he's a big mean space squid and what else do those do. But moreover, he wasn't "Shepard but evil". Yeah, you had Kai Leng, but he was a better idea then execution. He was just someone's lackey, not really a villain in his own right. He felt more like one of those bumbling goons on kids shows that follow around the big badguy so the good guys have someone to beat up.

Beyond that, Bioware's method seems to be "a giant force is destroying the world, cut off the head!" Its not good enough. A giant faceless army or the threat of total annihilation isn't a good badguy. The darkspawn, the collectors, and the reapers all suffered from this. They're plot elements, not antagonists.

And I know its a different fan base, but you can see it really well in a lot of Japanese gaming. Link and Gannon/Gannondorf, Cloud and Sephiroth, Snake and Ocelot/Liquid (or Solidus or Volgin), so on... hell, even Mario and Bowser... the main character is defined by their antagonist and both characters are stronger because of it.

TL;DR Stopping the world from being destroyed (or whatever) is ok, but not great. You need to stop someone from destroying the world... that's a lot more engaging.

Modifié par Cobra5, 17 septembre 2012 - 10:00 .

[DanIsNotVegan]

One of the best villains for me was Saren Arterius in Mass Effect. The first half of the game just made you hate him, even though you knew very little about his reasons and as the game moved along you started to get to know him. In the end as you understood his reasoning you still hated his goal, but you understood him and that made the whole thing work very well.
I think DA:O did a great job at implementing Loghain as the bad guy, without being the antagonist, which made the story that more surprising the further you got.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Cobra5 wrote...
Irenicus especially is the perfect example of how its "done right". He's so much stronger then you, and he's clearly evil but not just for evil's sake. And you are tied up with him whether you want to be or not. He took your soul- its personal. He's a step ahead of you constantly but not always out of reach- but even if you catch him, you're not quite sure how you'd stop him, as strong as he is...

This.  Irenicus was pants-crappingly terrifying, and it made the scramble to rescue Imoen and restore your sould in BG2 so much more intense.  Even when I was mucking about doing sidequests, in the back of my head there was always that voice that wondered if I could actually beat him.  Compare that to ME2, where I honestly forgot about the Collectors for hours at a time.

[Blastback]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Cobra5 wrote...
Irenicus especially is the perfect example of how its "done right". He's so much stronger then you, and he's clearly evil but not just for evil's sake. And you are tied up with him whether you want to be or not. He took your soul- its personal. He's a step ahead of you constantly but not always out of reach- but even if you catch him, you're not quite sure how you'd stop him, as strong as he is...

This.  Irenicus was pants-crappingly terrifying, and it made the scramble to rescue Imoen and restore your sould in BG2 so much more intense.  Even when I was mucking about doing sidequests, in the back of my head there was always that voice that wondered if I could actually beat him.  Compare that to ME2, where I honestly forgot about the Collectors for hours at a time.

Thirded. And yeah, I always felt overwhelmed by him.  It made beating him feels so much sweeter. 

[Mr.House]

Cobra5 wrote...

Good villains is something sorely lacking from western RPGs. The best stories are the ones that are personal- its not a an army or a threat you are working to stop, its a person, directly opposed to you.

Consider Baldur's Gate for example... thrown around on these forums and in the gaming community in general as extremely high caliber storytelling games... You have Sarevok in the first one and (especially) Jon Irenicus in the second one. Irenicus especially is the perfect example of how its "done right". He's so much stronger then you, and he's clearly evil but not just for evil's sake. And you are tied up with him whether you want to be or not. He took your soul- its personal. He's a step ahead of you constantly but not always out of reach- but even if you catch him, you're not quite sure how you'd stop him, as strong as he is...

Saren was the last great bad guy Bioware did. Loghain was cool but you met him like, twice, and other then his initial back stab he didn't actually do anything. He was ultimately just a stepping stone on your way to fight the darkspawn, more of a chore then a real villain.

Saren was well done, but didn't have as much presence as he needed to. He never really bothered you past the first hour or so of the game, and then again at the very end. But you did hear about him a lot, and that was good enough. Moreover, he had two very important qualities in a villain: He was like the main character but "better" (At least at first) and he actually had a reason to be evil.

In the first, he's basically a more experienced Shepard. He was a spectre first, he had done a bunch of crazy missions like Shepard has/is going to. He seems potentially stronger then Shepard but still on the same level. On the second, he did think what he was doing was the right thing, that joining the reapers was the only alternative to total annihilation... so even if he is evil, you have a reason to stand up and say why you're good.

The other two mass effects totally lacked villains. It seemed like they were grooming up harbringer to be a villain, who all of the sudden disappeared for some reason. I'm not sure he would've been a good choice anyway... he was a nice voice to argue with, and yeah, Shepard killed sovereign but... he wasn't really an antagonist, which is the important part. He had no reason to be evil, to the players knowledge, other then he's a big mean space squid and what else do those do. But moreover, he wasn't "Shepard but evil". Yeah, you had Kai Leng, but he was a better idea then execution. He was just someone's lackey, not really a villain in his own right. He felt more like one of those bumbling goons on kids shows that follow around the big badguy so the good guys have someone to beat up.

Beyond that, Bioware's method seems to be "a giant force is destroying the world, cut off the head!" Its not good enough. A giant faceless army or the threat of total annihilation isn't a good badguy. The darkspawn, the collectors, and the reapers all suffered from this. They're plot elements, not antagonists.

And I know its a different fan base, but you can see it really well in a lot of Japanese gaming. Link and Gannon/Gannondorf, Cloud and Sephiroth, Snake and Ocelot/Liquid (or Solidus or Volgin), so on... hell, even Mario and Bowser... the main character is defined by their antagonist and both characters are stronger because of it.

TL;DR Stopping the world from being destroyed (or whatever) is ok, but not great. You need to stop someone from destroying the world... that's a lot more engaging.

Agreeded. I still find Jon Irenicus to be Biowares best villian and one of the best villians in gaming.

[hexaligned]

Blastback wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Cobra5 wrote...
Irenicus especially is the perfect example of how its "done right". He's so much stronger then you, and he's clearly evil but not just for evil's sake. And you are tied up with him whether you want to be or not. He took your soul- its personal. He's a step ahead of you constantly but not always out of reach- but even if you catch him, you're not quite sure how you'd stop him, as strong as he is...

This.  Irenicus was pants-crappingly terrifying, and it made the scramble to rescue Imoen and restore your sould in BG2 so much more intense.  Even when I was mucking about doing sidequests, in the back of my head there was always that voice that wondered if I could actually beat him.  Compare that to ME2, where I honestly forgot about the Collectors for hours at a time.

Thirded. And yeah, I always felt overwhelmed by him.  It made beating him feels so much sweeter. 

It helps that he has some of the best Rants by a video game villian ever as well.
"Life... is strength. That is not to be contested; it seems logical
enough. You live; you affect your world. But is it what you want? You
are... different inside. This woman lives and has strength of a sort.
She lost her parents to plague, her husband to war, but she persevered.
Her farm prospered, her children are well-fed, and her name respected
throughout her land. She lived as she thought she should. And now she is
dead."  *EXPLODES RANDOM PEASANT WOMAN*

[Blastback]

relhart wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Cobra5 wrote...
Irenicus especially is the perfect example of how its "done right". He's so much stronger then you, and he's clearly evil but not just for evil's sake. And you are tied up with him whether you want to be or not. He took your soul- its personal. He's a step ahead of you constantly but not always out of reach- but even if you catch him, you're not quite sure how you'd stop him, as strong as he is...

This.  Irenicus was pants-crappingly terrifying, and it made the scramble to rescue Imoen and restore your sould in BG2 so much more intense.  Even when I was mucking about doing sidequests, in the back of my head there was always that voice that wondered if I could actually beat him.  Compare that to ME2, where I honestly forgot about the Collectors for hours at a time.

Thirded. And yeah, I always felt overwhelmed by him.  It made beating him feels so much sweeter. 

It helps that he has some of the best Rants by a video game villian ever as well.
"Life... is strength. That is not to be contested; it seems logical
enough. You live; you affect your world. But is it what you want? You
are... different inside. This woman lives and has strength of a sort.
She lost her parents to plague, her husband to war, but she persevered.
Her farm prospered, her children are well-fed, and her name respected
throughout her land. She lived as she thought she should. And now she is
dead."  *EXPLODES RANDOM PEASANT WOMAN*

SPOILER ALERT!!!

Well to be fair that wasn't really him..

[Sable Rhapsody]

relhart wrote...
It helps that he has some of the best Rants by a video game villian ever as well.

IMO Master Li edges him out just slightly.  Though he isn't as ranty or as angry.  I want a villain as scary smart as Master Li again.

[EssEeeEcks]

Caesar was a pretty great villain.

[BioFan (Official)]

I liked how Logain was a very deep character. Maybe the Orlaisian civil war will bring a character like that into the mix.

[TEWR]

Blastback wrote...

How come?

How come we won't get another one? Based upon how they handled Orsino and Meredith in DAII, I don't hold much hope.

They could've easily given those two characters characterization and made Meredith a third Loghain-esque character whilst still keeping the lyrium idol -- in such a way that it wouldn't detract from her character, but added to it IMO -- but they didn't.

They've acknowledged that Act 3 was a failure in writing, design, and whatnot which is all well and good.... but I don't see them actually going the distance with making more characters like Loghain and the Arishok as opposed to just shoehorning in characters that have no semblance of a persona and are little more then data constructs.

[TEWR]

Ericander77 wrote...

I liked how Logain was a very deep character. Maybe the Orlaisian civil war will bring a character like that into the mix.

I'd like to see the Orlesian Civil War succeed -- but with Empress Celene still alive somewhere, or being held captive by Gaspard so she can be his secret bride -- so that we can see the Orlesians invade Ferelden again.

Then, we can witness the glorious majesty that is Loghain Mac Tir flipping a table in anger at this revelation, punching a few chevaliers in the face, and riding an ebony mare in the rain to Ferelden's defense.

Bonus points if he's doing it in slow-mo. Further bonus points if he grew a badass mustache like Stroud or a badass beard like Duncan.

[Dave of Canada]

I'd like to see Gaspard and Celene having elements of Loghain, rather than having just one "Loghain" character. 

[rpgfan321]

I thought Loghain was a great antagonist and enemy. I wouldn't call him a villain though.
But yeah, DA3 needs an antagonist worthy of the time I'll spend.

We need someone who will add, if not drive, the gray morality in the game.

[b09boy]

Loghain was a great character, and a solid rival, but I would certainly hesitate to call him a villain. He was basically spending the game doing the same thing the Warden was, collecting allies to fight the darkspawn, and every so often you'd clash with this or that emissary he sent out.

Irenicus is one of those rare villains that don't come about very often. That sort of intense antagonist which isn't handled in the cliche manner of destroying your village, killing your father and raping your mother yet still makes you both hate and fear him. That sort of villain won't be replicated with ease, and really, shouldn't be. Neither Origins nor DA2 would have been served well with his type (DA2 needed fleshing out of characters in general, and motivation for remaining in the city, not so much a strong antagonist). For DA3, with multiple civil wars brewing, that sort of villain doesn't have much a place either. Flemeth, or another manipulative god character, are the only ones which might have a chance to approach that level of villainy, but even then she's sort of had her claws removed as we the player have already defeated her.

Personally, I'd like to see a story where we end up tracking Flemeth, Morrigan, Hawke and the Warden culminating in a sort of epic confrontation between titanic heroes and grand manipulators. A battle in which our new character might not even be of level to approach so much as influence in some way.

[Direwolf0294]

Please no. DA3 could do without a guy who randomly betrays his people and turns evil for no reason when an undead army from hell is marching on his lands. Loghain had no motivation for his actions other than being a douche. I expect the characters in DA3 to have a little more depth than that.

Edit:

That's not to say there shouldn't be some sort of rival character for the PC who fills a role similar to Loghain, just that they should actually be a well written character who has a reason for doing what they're doing.

Modifié par Direwolf0294, 19 septembre 2012 - 06:36 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

b09boy wrote...
Flemeth, or another manipulative god character, are the only ones which might have a chance to approach that level of villainy, but even then she's sort of had her claws removed as we the player have already defeated her.

Yeah, but she got better.  It's always scarier when, as a gamer, you meet a villain you can't just kill in the traditional sense.  It's what made the Reapers so scary until they got deballed at the end of ME3.

Personally, I've found BioWare's recent villains a bit lackluster, and I really liked DA2's approach.  Nobody's the good guy, nobody's the bad guy (even the Arishok and Meredith had some decent points), and you have to decide based on your own judgment.

[PsychoBlonde]

Dasher1010 wrote...

A villain who drives the plot and stands in the way of the player and gives the quest meaning? That's what DAIII needs. Period.

I'm not sure like Loghain exactly, but this would be an awesome time to introduce some kind of dark shadowy master manipulator antagonist you have to root out.  That's what Inquisitions are FOR.  ROOTING.