50 réponses à ce sujet

[Emzamination]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Valuing beauty over functionality and practicality is the very definition of vanity.

No, that's called taking some pride in how one presents themselves in society. One would think that the smith of high quality armor would of spared no expense making it exceptional in both stats and design, not make the wearer look like a fool.

[Wulfram]

Better looking clothes for Mages and Rogues I can get behind. I think warriors should wear armour. Though I couldn't actually oppose some sort of cosmetic thing that allowed them to wear clothes in single player game I suspect.

And I hope there continues to be full plate armour that isn't form fitting.

[Fast Jimmy]

Emzamination wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Valuing beauty over functionality and practicality is the very definition of vanity.

No, that's called taking some pride in how one presents themselves in society. One would think that the smith of high quality armor would of spared no expense making it exceptional in both stats and design, not make the wearer look like a fool.

A smith would have made armor that kept the person alive. 

Do you see police Kevlar vests with Armani embroidery? Do you see armored SUVs with spoilers or flame decals?

No. Because when you are making equipment designed to keep the user alive, you give them the best protection possible, period. You don't add flair or design, as it detracts from the final product and does nothing to improve the survival of the end user. 

[shepard1038]

@Fast Jimmy

Master Wade would disagree with you.

[Fast Jimmy]

shepard1038 wrote...

@Fast Jimmy

Master Wade would disagree with you.

Armor that is beautiful because of its fine craftsmanship and not because of gaudy/cosmetic enhancements is different than being able to wear a prom dress in combat.

[Emzamination]

Brodoteau wrote...

Really, your going to come after me over a fashion toggle?  Your going
to imply that I have poor business sense and say I have inane logic
because of this?  Here I thought we were having a civil disagreement. 

No I'm not going after you because I want more fashionable clothing or at all for that matter. I implied you had inane business sense, because you spouted inane business sense. and I was quite civilized on the matter.

But for fun, let's look at my logical flaws:  I never said that Bioware shouldn't listen to their customers

Brodoteau wrote...

My bigger point was that no matter what they do people will complain. So it's not worth their time and effort.

No you just said bioware shouldn't do anything when their customers complain about a product because it's not worth their time and effort. That doesn't sound like the equivalent of not listening to you?

But it is debatable whether or not this a "real problem" that is causing them to lose business.  Or should they react to every change/complaint  that has ever been suggested on BSN?  Man, by that track record, they really have bad business sense too!  Where are my griffons!   Bioware, you need to go back to business school!   You don't understand the basic ideas of business!  

Real problems like good fashion are subjective.

Don't move the goal post, No one is asking bioware to react to every complaint, let's focus on this one.

I'm quite content with suggesting things and happily letting bioware handle the economical ramifications of said suggestion, don't know why you can't.

 

All of your arguments assume there is a problem.  Which I dispute (sorry I guess I'm not suppose to disagree on this idea). 

Right, we're all assuming we think some of the clothing/armor in dragon age was hideous, good to know we can't form a personal opinion by our lonesome. Also feel free to disagree all you want, just recognize as it stands atm, your view point is in the minority opinion.


 

I also mentioned that many people liked the pants suit (which you convieniently forget to mention as you criticize my ideas).  Your idea that Bioware's "fashions" are "not up to par" is disputable but you can go ahead and complain all you want.  I am simply disagreeing with your point of view (sorry again) since I don't think Bioware does a bad job of a) providing a variety of clothing to wear and  providing good looking armors.

You forgot to mention that the suit on femhawke was a reused model of male hawkes suit, so much for variety, eh? also why apologize for disagreeing with me? feel free.

Look, I don't want to get into an argument about whether or not my
fashion sense sucks in comparison to yours.  It probably does.  But just
because there are two threads in BSN on this topic, that hardly
represents the vast gaming majority that bought this game -- who (since I
can generalize without proof too) probably don't care about this topic
or think it is worth the topic.

No, you can't generalize without proof. All you can do is give your own personal opinion on the matter and link to the opinions of others who share your same like mindedness. Attempting to impose your unsupported view point on the topic is a ridiculous way to argue.

Listen, you want your toggle, have your toggle, advocate for your toggle!  I'll join the voices that say:  Please give Emzamination the toggle!  

Attempting to patronize the oppositions opinion... really? and here I thought you were trying to be civil?

I just don't think your arguments are very strong, I don' t think it is necessary and I don't think it greatly would add to the game.  But I will happily concede defeat (you won an internet argument!) and be off to try to sell snow to Inuit -- that seems like a good business deal right?    

Calling this a argument is rather insulting to the term, especially considering the oppositions failure to not only bow out with some diginity but patronize me as well. tho just the same.

Modifié par Emzamination, 28 janvier 2013 - 09:40 .

[Yumichika]

Well a berurier/chevalier have wear armor for sure or some pieces of it, but a thief with armor or an assassin with armor does not make sens.
Why those can't just wear normal or great looking outfit... i'm yet not talking of bardes and mages.
somebody said he/she can understand that mages from the circle wear robes but why all the other always wear it ? why do they not have shirt and pants or noble clothes ?

Plus if u notice the specialization we have things like : dexterity, ruse, magics etc and those are very far from strenght. Bows and arrows does not need u to wear helmets and armors. An assassin need it speed same for a thief...

And those design are just matter of imagination!

[Das Tentakel]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Valuing beauty over functionality and practicality is the very definition of vanity.

No, that's called taking some pride in how one presents themselves in society. One would think that the smith of high quality armor would of spared no expense making it exceptional in both stats and design, not make the wearer look like a fool.

A smith would have made armor that kept the person alive. 

Do you see police Kevlar vests with Armani embroidery? Do you see armored SUVs with spoilers or flame decals?

No. Because when you are making equipment designed to keep the user alive, you give them the best protection possible, period. You don't add flair or design, as it detracts from the final product and does nothing to improve the survival of the end user. 

Ugh, talk about ugly armour design by and for idiots...

@Fast Jimmy: In olden times, if you had the money, you got armour that looked nice and IS functional. The two were and are not mutually exclusive. Modern military equipment is a bad comparison, as they are mass-produced and intended to provide maximum protection given specific considerations of cost and functionality. There's also a concern with uniformity and a degree of camouflage.

But that's very much the modern era. While functionality was important, there was more than ample room for aesthetics, right up until the not so distant past.

www.youtube.com/watch

[Knight of Dane]

Yay, I have been suggesting Vanity slots for a time myself, glad to see it have more support.

It's in Dragon Age: Legends, why not Inqusition?

[Emzamination]

Das Tentakel wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Valuing beauty over functionality and practicality is the very definition of vanity.

No, that's called taking some pride in how one presents themselves in society. One would think that the smith of high quality armor would of spared no expense making it exceptional in both stats and design, not make the wearer look like a fool.

A smith would have made armor that kept the person alive. 

Do you see police Kevlar vests with Armani embroidery? Do you see armored SUVs with spoilers or flame decals?

No. Because when you are making equipment designed to keep the user alive, you give them the best protection possible, period. You don't add flair or design, as it detracts from the final product and does nothing to improve the survival of the end user. 

Ugh, talk about ugly armour design by and for idiots...

@Fast Jimmy: In olden times, if you had the money, you got armour that looked nice and IS functional. The two were and are not mutually exclusive. Modern military equipment is a bad comparison, as they are mass-produced and intended to provide maximum protection given specific considerations of cost and functionality. There's also a concern with uniformity and a degree of camouflage.

But that's very much the modern era. While functionality was important, there was more than ample room for aesthetics, right up until the not so distant past.

www.youtube.com/watch

^ This

[Fast Jimmy]

Das Tentakel wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Valuing beauty over functionality and practicality is the very definition of vanity.

No, that's called taking some pride in how one presents themselves in society. One would think that the smith of high quality armor would of spared no expense making it exceptional in both stats and design, not make the wearer look like a fool.

A smith would have made armor that kept the person alive. 

Do you see police Kevlar vests with Armani embroidery? Do you see armored SUVs with spoilers or flame decals?

No. Because when you are making equipment designed to keep the user alive, you give them the best protection possible, period. You don't add flair or design, as it detracts from the final product and does nothing to improve the survival of the end user. 

Ugh, talk about ugly armour design by and for idiots...

@Fast Jimmy: In olden times, if you had the money, you got armour that looked nice and IS functional. The two were and are not mutually exclusive. Modern military equipment is a bad comparison, as they are mass-produced and intended to provide maximum protection given specific considerations of cost and functionality. There's also a concern with uniformity and a degree of camouflage.

But that's very much the modern era. While functionality was important, there was more than ample room for aesthetics, right up until the not so distant past.

www.youtube.com/watch

I wouldn't have a problem with it if these vanity armors cost an insane amount of more money than "normal" armor. Just like they would if you went to a smith and made such a request.

Also... nice looking armor is not what people are advocating in this thread. They are advocating dresses and shirts and pants to work as effectively as plate mail armor. 

Nice armor is realistic and possible. Putting a prom dress on your tank and taking them into battle and not be penalized is so far removed from any reality that it can be called nothing more than vanity.

[Emzamination]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I wouldn't have a problem with it if these vanity armors cost an insane amount of more money than "normal" armor. Just like they would if you went to a smith and made such a request.

Also... nice looking armor is not what people are advocating in this thread. They are advocating dresses and shirts and pants to work as effectively as plate mail armor. 

Nice armor is realistic and possible. Putting a prom dress on your tank and taking them into battle and not be penalized is so far removed from any reality that it can be called nothing more than vanity.

Not as far removed as you might think, jimmy. The perfect world mmo, battle of the immortals utilizes a fashion slot, that covers your current armor with fashionable clothing at no penalty cost.

[Das Tentakel]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Valuing beauty over functionality and practicality is the very definition of vanity.

No, that's called taking some pride in how one presents themselves in society. One would think that the smith of high quality armor would of spared no expense making it exceptional in both stats and design, not make the wearer look like a fool.

A smith would have made armor that kept the person alive. 

Do you see police Kevlar vests with Armani embroidery? Do you see armored SUVs with spoilers or flame decals?

No. Because when you are making equipment designed to keep the user alive, you give them the best protection possible, period. You don't add flair or design, as it detracts from the final product and does nothing to improve the survival of the end user. 

Ugh, talk about ugly armour design by and for idiots...

@Fast Jimmy: In olden times, if you had the money, you got armour that looked nice and IS functional. The two were and are not mutually exclusive. Modern military equipment is a bad comparison, as they are mass-produced and intended to provide maximum protection given specific considerations of cost and functionality. There's also a concern with uniformity and a degree of camouflage.

But that's very much the modern era. While functionality was important, there was more than ample room for aesthetics, right up until the not so distant past.

www.youtube.com/watch

I wouldn't have a problem with it if these vanity armors cost an insane amount of more money than "normal" armor. Just like they would if you went to a smith and made such a request.

Also... nice looking armor is not what people are advocating in this thread. They are advocating dresses and shirts and pants to work as effectively as plate mail armor. 

Nice armor is realistic and possible. Putting a prom dress on your tank and taking them into battle and not be penalized is so far removed from any reality that it can be called nothing more than vanity.

Well, you had me with ' You don't add flair or design, as it detracts from the final product and does nothing to improve the survival of the end user' . But fair enough.

Personally, I don't mind disconnecting the actual armour somebody wears and what he/she is wearing. It's not in MY game, it's in THEIR game. And should I see screenshots of long-legged blondes with skimpy lamellar monokini armour...sigh. But I occasionally see them anyway because for some reason 75% of mods consist of that kind of stuff.

Basically, though, I get the feeling that people are saying that DA armour (and clothing) mostly suck in an aesthetic sense and that's why they want the choice to 'overlay'  them with nicer-looking (from their POV) stuff. With which I have to agree, some of the better-looking armours and clothes notwithstanding.
A fashion slot or whatever is not my preferred solution (it's fighting but not solving a symptom), but barring good taste and design on the part of DA's art team (<_<) , why not?


I was there in WOW, and saw how the strength of the armour and clothing designers failed...the horror, oh, the aesthetic horror 

Edit:
Talking about aesthetic horror, did somebody mention Perfect World? Oh sweet Mithras, nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! 



See, this is why we can't have nice things...

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 28 janvier 2013 - 10:23 .

[Fast Jimmy]

What modders do with their time is their business. What Bioware does with their time becomes my business as a paying customer.

Also everyone, please, if you want your argument to be taken seriously in a discussion on game design, do NOT bring an MMO into the discussion. More often then not, they are the lamest form of gaming in the RPG genre, bar none and only serve as time wasters and money grubbing.

In my humblest opinions, of course.

[Emzamination]

Nvm, this'll only drag us off topic

Modifié par Emzamination, 28 janvier 2013 - 10:42 .

[Knight of Dane]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

What modders do with their time is their business. What Bioware does with their time becomes my business as a paying customer.

Also everyone, please, if you want your argument to be taken seriously in a discussion on game design, do NOT bring an MMO into the discussion. More often then not, they are the lamest form of gaming in the RPG genre, bar none and only serve as time wasters and money grubbing.

In my humblest opinions, of course.

Just thought I'd comment on this even if it is slightly off topic.

Overall I agree with you, we share a opinion.
But your second comment is stupid, and by this I mean no personal offense.

At least what I have been taught studying games design is that nothing is outside consideration when you design games, not mmo's; not anything.
Actually you shouldn't exclude anything if you want to be taken seriously in these kinds of discussions.
Which is a bit sad actually, since I like your own threads and have gained some respect for your other arguments in those.
Saying something is "lame" is childish.

Nothing should be stated too lame to escape design; because it's still a matter of preference and not fact.
As you so state yourself at the end of your post.

Please don't call others' arguments invalid because they are "lame," if you want people to keep taking you seriously.

/Back OT

[kalasaurus]

Emzamination wrote...

No no, this is a very valid topic to bring up. I myself have been a very vocal advocator on these forums, concerning better fashion in Da3. It too bothered me that morrigan & Isabella outshone my character, by having sexier clothing.

I used to sometimes find myself, in both games, using weaker armor, simply because the more high quality armor, looked atrocious. I'm getting better with not doing that, in subsequent play-throughs, because it hinders me, but still, a girl likes to look pretty.

I know what you mean.  I'm replaying DA: O, and I always have my Warrior (and Arcane Warrior) female Wardens wear Splintmail because it's the only armor that's flattering and form fitting.  There's better armor, but I like looking pretty while kicking butt.

In DA2 my mage wears Neophyte robes until I unlock the Champion robes.  I'm so turned off by the Warrior armor that I don't even play that class- just the rogue and mage.  It's entirely cosmetic, but I'm going to be staring at this character the whole game and I want them to look good (and I only play as women).

Merrill's outfit with the scarf is cute, practical and feminine.  Outfits like hers would be nice for the female PC.

[Brodoteau]

Emzamination wrote...

*words*

Sigh, you could have just ignored me and continued your other feuds you know, but you had to make a show of it.  Sigh, just when I thought I was out...

Look I'm going to ignore the mischaracterizations of what I said, my (obviously failed) attempts at sarcasm, your cherry-picking of points and your snide remarks about my dignity.   Whatever floats your boat.  As I said, I have no interest in prolonging the argument with you.  Overall, we'll have to agree to disagree, or not, that's up to you.

So I only have four things to add to the overall conversation:  
1.  The OP and the other fashion advocates obviously think this is something worth Bioware's time and effort.  That's admirable.  I do not because, in this case, Bioware cannot win.  As I said earlier, it's not worth their time and effort because they will always produce hideous armor to someone.  So the game designers cannot entertain every idea, like has been said, then why do they have to entertain this one?  Why is this one worth their time?   

2.  I think it is a tad insulting to the graphic designers that people believe Bioware is making ugly armor on purpose.  Like the darkspawn redesign, the new elves and a host of other aesthetic choices, the person that designed the armors probably thinks they look awesome (and we also don't know the constraints that they had when designing them).  It's their game and I respect the reasons why they made the clothing/armor as they did.      

3.  Look if Bioware designs armor to suit the male characer model first and then applies that to the female character model; they must have a reason.  Maybe its because more people play males over females and that's where they have to put their priorities first.  Maybe its because Bioware's lead designer specilaized in men's fashions in art school.  Maybe its because the video game industry is sexist.   I dunno.  Do we know?  Maybe it would be more productive for people to ask Bioware why they do this than badgering people who think the armor is fine to defend the lack of "female-specific" armor. 

4.  The look of something should serve the greater storyline.  I believe the clothes and armor's first purpose should be this as well.  Aesthetic choices, like Anders switching outfits in DA2, mean things and serve the overall storytelling in a visual medium.  Too much variety and choice, therefore, I believe would hamper the ability of Bioware to use aesthetics as a way to tell this story.  If you're a Grey Warden, you should be wearing Grey Wardern armor, even if you think its hideous -- because that's the storyline.  Just like if you are member of the police force, you wear their uniform.  I'm the type of guy that keeps Shepherd in his N7 armor for as long as possible... until functonality makes it silly that he wouldn't have changed armor.  Maybe that's not your fashion preference... but I would rather that fashion preferences reflect the storyline rather than some personal desire to look pretty. 

 

[Orian Tabris]

krul2k wrote...



thats my newest rogue, i dont want to "prom dress" or "barbie" up my female characters i just want them to look good, an look the part in my eyes (opinion), none of which is available with the armor or clothing available to me without mods, and as emza linked earlier some of the armor design is totally ludicrous (again opinion) and mostly for the main part horrible.

Amazing wat a modder can do with the same armor type

While taste is purely based on opinion, the ironic thing about your post, is that you say some of the linked armour design is totally ludicrous and horrible, but the picture you've provided - of your own modded character - is, as a whole, itself ludicrous and horrible (especially in addition to your Hawke's modded face).

Also, what looks to be Bethany and protective clothing that she's wearing, is the same: ludicrous and horrible. She and it don't even look the part of a mage in apparel (rather, the part of a warrior/knight in a strangely designed, unfinished piece of warrior/knight's armour) in appearance.

Your Hawke in this picture, looks the part of some (albeit, evil) warrior who had no stealthy actions in mind, when she chose to wear the set of armour.

I am ignoring the weapons Hawke and Bethany are wearing, in the above 3 paragraphs, as they haven't been modded.

Modifié par Orian Tabris, 29 janvier 2013 - 01:14 .

[hanshotfirs]

MichaelStuart wrote...

I support this idea, for the same reason I paint walls.
I get bored at looking at the same thing.

Amen!

[Emzamination]

GlassElephant wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

No no, this is a very valid topic to bring up. I myself have been a very vocal advocator on these forums, concerning better fashion in Da3. It too bothered me that morrigan & Isabella outshone my character, by having sexier clothing.

I used to sometimes find myself, in both games, using weaker armor, simply because the more high quality armor, looked atrocious. I'm getting better with not doing that, in subsequent play-throughs, because it hinders me, but still, a girl likes to look pretty.

I know what you mean.  I'm replaying DA: O, and I always have my Warrior (and Arcane Warrior) female Wardens wear Splintmail because it's the only armor that's flattering and form fitting.  There's better armor, but I like looking pretty while kicking butt.

In DA2 my mage wears Neophyte robes until I unlock the Champion robes.  I'm so turned off by the Warrior armor that I don't even play that class- just the rogue and mage.  It's entirely cosmetic, but I'm going to be staring at this character the whole game and I want them to look good (and I only play as women).

Merrill's outfit with the scarf is cute, practical and feminine.  Outfits like hers would be nice for the female PC.

Indeed, I too find myself playing the rogue and mage more often than not, because it seems more love and finesse went into the craftsmanship design. Tho if I do play warrior, I usually only stick to the Armor of Divine will or Ceremonial Armor, as I find it complements the physique quite nicely.

It's simply dreadful how bioware attempts to bait us into wearing monstrosities, with superior stats. Oh and the casual wear... I adored femhawkes homeware, it was sexy, conservative and elegant, but those bright multicolored quilts they called dresses in origins... we shan't even speak of those crimes against sanity.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Some of the rogue and mage outfits available to Hawke in DA2 were pretty sexy.