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[CronoDragoon]

To give another example to try and clarify my position, in an ideal world where digital sex scenes don't look ridiculous and BW could do whatever they wanted, I would have actually liked a sex scene between Shepard and Tali in Mass Effect, because I'm confident it would give me plenty of new information, not the least of which is what quarian physiology looks like, how they have sex, the problems that might arise in inter-species sex, etc etc.

But if it was just a scene of Tali riding Shepard for ten seconds then cut to after, that's fundamentally useless. And it's what the majority of TW2 sex scenes do.

[Monica83]

Am1 told right...
Have a clue is different from experiency.... And that is why i liked those scenes in tw2 it maded me feel more immersed in the setting..

Geralt personality is changed from the book since TW1 by the way this is not the goal of the topic...

[Am1vf]

@CronoDragoon
And it's a good point, but still the audience prefers to see what happens. It isn't exactly the same but kind of like the "show don't tell" of cinema? edit: nah, not relevant.

@Bionuts
Nothing is ever as pretty in life as it is portrayed in in fiction, and still it is somehow prettier because of it.

Modifié par Am1_vf, 23 juillet 2013 - 06:44 .

[Bfler]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Let's skip the semantic arguments and continue with the real argument, which is whether or not TW2 sex scenes have any purpose besides sexual arousal.

Cynthia, the sex slave of Eilhart in Vergen, is in reality a spy of Nilfgaard. So in that case the sex is an instrument to gain the confidence of Eilhart

Modifié par Bfler, 23 juillet 2013 - 06:47 .

[LorDC]

CronoDragoon wrote...

To give another example to try and clarify my position, in an ideal world where digital sex scenes don't look ridiculous and BW could do whatever they wanted, I would have actually liked a sex scene between Shepard and Tali in Mass Effect, because I'm confident it would give me plenty of new information, not the least of which is what quarian physiology looks like, how they have sex, the problems that might arise in inter-species sex, etc etc.

But if it was just a scene of Tali riding Shepard for ten seconds then cut to after, that's fundamentally useless. And it's what the majority of TW2 sex scenes do.

So, you basically say that nudity and sex scenes do not have any value themselves anf thus should always be somehow justifed? I think thats somewhat hypocritical. Sex is natural part of life in general and romance in particular, and showing it should not require any more justification then putting romance itself into the game.
In the end, value of any part of the game is determined by enjoyment it gives to players. I think most of players appreciate a short scene showing intimacy betwenn their characters. And if nudity is apropriate in such scene but not shown, it will only break immersion and detract from player experience.

Modifié par LorDC, 23 juillet 2013 - 06:54 .

[badboy64]

LorDC wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

To give another example to try and clarify my position, in an ideal world where digital sex scenes don't look ridiculous and BW could do whatever they wanted, I would have actually liked a sex scene between Shepard and Tali in Mass Effect, because I'm confident it would give me plenty of new information, not the least of which is what quarian physiology looks like, how they have sex, the problems that might arise in inter-species sex, etc etc.

But if it was just a scene of Tali riding Shepard for ten seconds then cut to after, that's fundamentally useless. And it's what the majority of TW2 sex scenes do.

So, you basically say that nudity and sex scenes do not have any value themselves anf thus should always be somehow justifed? I think thats somewhat hypocritical. Sex is natural part of life in general and romance in particular, and showing it should not require any more justification then putting romance itself into the game.
In the end, value of any part of the game is determined by enjoyment it gives to players. I think most of players appreciate a short scene showing intimacy betwenn their characters. And if nudity is apropriate in such scene but not shown, it will only break immersion and detract from player experience.

Well said.

[CronoDragoon]

LorDC wrote...
So, you basically say that nudity and sex scenes do not have any value themselves anf thus should always be somehow justifed?

I think that ANY scene needs to be justified by its relevance to the story. Sex scenes aren't exempted from this. If a scene isn't relevant to the progression of the story, the characters, or our understand of these than it needs to be cut. Writing 101.

Sex is natural part of life in general

So is pooping, but is it necessary to show this event as often as it happens in life? No? Why?

and romance in particular and showing it should not require any more justification then putting romance itself into the game.

Romance and sex aren't the same thing. For one, romantic scenes can have a larger purpose beyond arousal, namely a type of catharsis experienced by the player/viewer at seeing this development between two characters. Or alternatively, disgust if it's an ill-advised pairing. So in this sense I suppose a scene of Tali humping Shepard is better than TW2 scenes insofar as it's showing love between two characters in which the audience is invested.

In the end, value of any part of the game is determined by enjoyment it gives to players.

Sure. Thus is the value of porn also determined. And? If players just want a little sexual arousal mixed into their games they should say so.

I think most of players appreciate a short scene showing intimacy betwenn their characters. And if nudity is apropriate in such scene but not shown, it will only break immersion abd detract from player experience.

By intimacy I assume you mean physical intimacy, because there's nothing psychologically intimate about the scenes I'm talking about.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 23 juillet 2013 - 07:03 .

[Am1vf]

CronoDragoon wrote...
(...)

and romance in particular and showing it should not require any more justification then putting romance itself into the game.

Romance and sex aren't the same thing. For one, romantic scenes can have a larger purpose beyond arousal, namely a type of catharsis experienced by the player/viewer at seeing this development between two characters. Or alternatively, disgust if it's an ill-advised pairing. So in this sense I suppose a scene of Tali humping Shepard is better than TW2 scenes insofar as it's showing love between two characters in which the audience is invested.
(...)

True. The two scenes with Jack in ME2 were better than any in TW2, despite them having their clothes on, because it showed very different attitudes and emotional states. But it would have been better without the clothes.

[Monica83]

i wonder why people complain nudity only in videogames.... but not in cinema or tv series...
Like if people never watched some late night movies

Ps. I also wonder why put something full of joy like make sex and pooping in the same line....

Modifié par Monica83, 23 juillet 2013 - 07:19 .

[Maria Caliban]

CronoDragoon wrote...

In reply to Degs, like I said, it didn't offend me. I'm just calling BS on the whole "TW2 sex scenes represent the game's maturity." They are juvenile scenes made for horny dudes (or gals) much like the cards in TW1.

And I'm going to call BS on the whole "TW2's sex scenes are juvenile."

Sometimes scenes are placed into a story just to make you laugh. Sometimes scenes are added to make you cry or be afraid. There are entire genres built around evoking specific responses - comedy and horror.

Sometimes scenes are added just to possibly arouse the reader/player/viewer. There's nothing inherently juvenile in appealing to the libido.

The real problem with the rose garden sex scene was that it was intended to be the emotional payoff for a purely optional romance with a woman who's literally an inanimate object for 2/3rds of the game.

[Am1vf]

 The problem with porn is that, as an industry, disregards storytelling and any short of meaningful message. I think it could be vastly improved if they tried to do something interesting and also get some respectability, but the thing is that they don't.

[LorDC]

CronoDragoon wrote...
I think that ANY scene needs to be justified by its relevance to the story. Sex scenes aren't exempted from this. If a scene isn't relevant to the progression of the story, the characters, or our understand of these than it needs to be cut. Writing 101.

So, all mabari scenes in DAO should be cut? They don't have any relevance to the story.

So is pooping, but is it necessary to show this event as often as it happens in life? No? Why?

Pooping is boring and repulsive to see for most people. It won't andd any fun to the game.

Romance and sex aren't the same thing. For one, romantic scenes can have a larger purpose beyond arousal, namely a type of catharsis experienced by the player/viewer at seeing this development between two characters. Or alternatively, disgust if it's an ill-advised pairing. So in this sense I suppose a scene of Tali humping Shepard is better than TW2 scenes insofar as it's showing love between two characters in which the audience is invested.

I didn't say that romance and sex are same. I said that one is part of the other. You know, when people love each other they will have sex. And if they don't have it and don't have good reasons for it, I have a bad news for them. Sexual scene at the very least show that that characters became close enough to have sex.

Sure. Thus is the value of porn also determined. And? If players just want a little sexual arousal mixed into their games they should say so.

Showing sex scenes has nothing to do with sexual arousal. It may bring joy of finally seeing your characters together or sense of achievement that your hero banged another chick.

By intimacy I assume you mean physical intimacy, because there's nothing psychologically intimate about the scenes I'm talking about.

Yep, right on that one.

[CronoDragoon]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Sometimes scenes are added just to possibly arouse the reader/player/viewer. There's nothing inherently juvenile in appealing to the libido.

If you have no other purpose than to appeal to the libido, then yeah actually, that's pretty immature. Why is the fact that it happens an argument against it being juvenile?

[SlottsMachine]

Wasting resources of some cheap T/A is just, I don't know.

[Am1vf]

Pooping was represented in a Metal Gear Solid... well I only know it was in the trailer, don't know if it's in the actual game.

And, btw, sex scenes can be repulsive to some people (don't ask me why though).

[Monica83]

Maria Caliban wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

In reply to Degs, like I said, it didn't offend me. I'm just calling BS on the whole "TW2 sex scenes represent the game's maturity." They are juvenile scenes made for horny dudes (or gals) much like the cards in TW1.

And I'm going to call BS on the whole "TW2's sex scenes are juvenile."

Sometimes scenes are placed into a story just to make you laugh. Sometimes scenes are added to make you cry or be afraid. There are entire genres built around evoking specific responses - comedy and horror.

Sometimes scenes are added just to possibly arouse the reader/player/viewer. There's nothing inherently juvenile in appealing to the libido.

The real problem with the rose garden sex scene was that it was intended to be the emotional payoff for a purely optional romance with a woman who's literally an inanimate object for 2/3rds of the game.

Yes i agree with that... the romance with Triss should be handled better.... Wow it's an event.... me and maria agree on something

[LorDC]

Am1_vf wrote...
The problem with porn is that, as an industry, disregards storytelling and any short of meaningful message. I think it could be vastly improved if they tried to do something interesting and also get some respectability, but the thing is that they don't.

Problem with pornography is that it has to deal physical arousal which distracts from all other aspects of the story. When people want to get off, story will on distract them from having release, and when they want to read story, their arousal will distract them from storyline.

[Maria Caliban]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Sometimes scenes are added just to possibly arouse the reader/player/viewer. There's nothing inherently juvenile in appealing to the libido.

If you have no other purpose than to appeal to the libido, then yeah actually, that's pretty immature. Why is the fact that it happens an argument against it being juvenile?

Okay, are you saying that a scene created to make the audience laugh or cry or jump in fright is also juvenile?

If not, why is arousal the only juvenile emotional reaction?

[CronoDragoon]

LorDC wrote...
So, all mabari scenes in DAO should be cut? They don't have any relevance to the story.

They have relevance to the mabari, which is in fact a character in the story. Do you know more about how mabari behave than you would have without those scenes? (If you say no then on this point we'll have to agree to disagree)

Pooping is boring and repulsive to see for most people. It won't andd any fun to the game.

So we've established that something being "a natural part of life" isn't a compelling argument.

I didn't say that romance and sex are same. I said that one is part of the other. You know, when people love each other they will have sex. And if they don't have it and don't have good reasons for it, I have a bad news for them. Sexual scene at the very least show that that characters became close enough to have sex.

The reason why I said they aren't the same is that you are giving me reasons to include sex scenes as part of the evolution of a romance, to which I have not objected.

Showing sex scenes has nothing to do with sexual arousal. It may bring joy of finally seeing your characters together

That's pretty much what I said above.

or sense of achievement that your hero banged another chick.

Well.........I SUPPOSE that is indeed a non-sexual reason for including the scene.

[CronoDragoon]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Okay, are you saying that a scene created to make the audience laugh or cry or jump in fright is also juvenile?

If not, why is arousal the only juvenile emotional reaction?

Depends. I find the Three Stooges/Tom & Jerry  juvenile because I find physical comedy juvenile, while others types of comedy are not. That doesn't mean I don't indulge in juvenile entertainment. I love Ace Ventura. But I'm not going to say that Ace Ventura is thoughtful or tasteful storytelling.

My favorite type of comedy is character comedy, whereby a scene evokes laughter because the audience knows the character and is either amused by their conforming to character traits or acting against type. In this sense comedy is produced by well-developed characters and the writers subverting expectations of those characters.

In essence, this comes back - again - to purpose. Why are TW2's creators trying to appeal to libido by showing Geralt having sex with nameless random prostitutes?

[Am1vf]

LorDC wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...
The problem with porn is that, as an industry, disregards storytelling and any short of meaningful message. I think it could be vastly improved if they tried to do something interesting and also get some respectability, but the thing is that they don't.

Problem with pornography is that it has to deal physical arousal which distracts from all other aspects of the story. When people want to get off, story will on distract them from having release, and when they want to read story, their arousal will distract them from storyline.

I disagree.

[Monica83]

If something are able to make me feel a sensation and this argument is not just valid only for sex scene but also for every other sides of the story or envirovment is a feature.....

[LorDC]

CronoDragoon wrote...
They have relevance to the mabari, which is in fact a character in the story. Do you know more about how mabari behave than you would have without those scenes? (If you say no then on this point we'll have to agree to disagree)

I agree, that those scenes give us some information about mabari, but they weren't put there for the purpose of giving this information and people enjoy them not because of it.

So we've established that something being "a natural part of life" isn't a compelling argument.

An argument I never made. I only said that sex does not require any more justification than any other thing.

I think our disagreement is about what makes a scene worth putting in game(or any other entrtainmetn media for that matter). You(as yout arguments imply) judge it by plot relevance, I judge it by amount of fun it gives to the player.

[LorDC]

Am1_vf wrote...

LorDC wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...
The problem with porn is that, as an industry, disregards storytelling and any short of meaningful message. I think it could be vastly improved if they tried to do something interesting and also get some respectability, but the thing is that they don't.

Problem with pornography is that it has to deal physical arousal which distracts from all other aspects of the story. When people want to get off, story will on distract them from having release, and when they want to read story, their arousal will distract them from storyline.

I disagree.

Then give me a list of novels/movies/whatever that strike a good balance between two. I honestly would REALLY love to see them.

[Maria Caliban]

Geralt doesn't have sex with nameless, random prostitutes in TW2. Are you confusing it with TW1?

You have yet to explain how evoking desire is inherently juvenile while evoking laughter isn't. But now you've added 'physical comedy is inherently juvenile' to the pile without explaining why.