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[Nightwriter]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Yes. Gimme. I would so love it if their games started treating me like an adult again. Not that I really deserve to be called an adult. But still. Adult love scenes. Gimme.

Because nudity adds maturity. Yes.

Frankly, the way BioWare did it -- yes. I think maturity in games is not just about mature content, but mature usage of that content -- knowing when it is appropriate and tasteful. BioWare knew. Love scenes like ME1's were mature in all the best senses of that word.

If you think maturity is just content that puts a nudity flag on the game, there isn't much I can say to dissuade you. I just disagree.

A love scene in a BioWare game stands as the culmination or cornerstone of a serious relationship and is intended to express romantic intimacy. Nudity or partial nudity is appropriate here. When clothes are awkwardly forced into scenes such as this, I do feel like censorship is horning in where it doesn't belong.

[MerinTB]

o Ventus wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Yeah, if you haven't seen the homophobic rationalizations for the Asari before me stating it now, you're either new-ish to Mass Effect discussions or have a  selective memory.

1. I love how those are the 2 extremes in apparently bound to. You couldn't have been more arbitrary if you tried.

I'm sorry, English is only my first language of which I have a degree in.  You'll have to try to write clearer for me to understand your point here.

You are being sarcastic about liking ... two extremes (BioWare shutting down discussion of homosexuality in Star Wars, and a BioWare Community manager saying "there is no homosexuality in Star Wars" AND Mass Effect's MC, prior to ME3, being straight with rationalizations from head of ME and head of BioWare) are my being arbitrary.

No, I am failing to parse your paragraph.  Those were both examples of BioWare NOT choosing to fight for homosexuality inclusion.  I don't see the extremes there.

If, somehow, you mean the rating reasoning and the set character reasoning being two arbitrary extremes (?), those are right in that (and many other) articles about BioWare's rationalization at the time.

I can certainly try to be far more arbitrary than giving direct evidence of what my point was, that is absolutely positive.

You could also try writing sentences that make some sort of sense.

o Ventus wrote...
2. Rationalizations? For what? The very first words first words spoken in the second paragraph in the codex entry about the asari are "an all female species..."

Rationalization as to why there was no homosexuality in ME prior to 3.  It's not my argument that "the asari don't count because they are a mono-gendered, or essentially genderless, race, therefore they are not homosexual and females mating with them are not homosexual" -- that is an absolute crap argument.

But it was a very, very prominent argument used by many people, usually those either trying to assuade homophobes or by homophobes for why the asari didn't bother them.

Take five minutes and google it.

Modifié par MerinTB, 02 août 2013 - 05:21 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

o Ventus wrote...

1. I love how those are the 2 extremes in apparently bound to. You couldn't have been more arbitrary if you tried.

Merin is accurately describing the developers' justifications for the lack of homosexual romance options in ME2.  There weren't any in ME, and people wanted some, so they asked on the BioBoards.  And BioWare said, no, there's no homosexuality in these games.  And players pointed out the Asari, which the developers then denied had any gender.

The game does say they are all-female, yes.  BioWare explicitly denied this later, however, when trying to defend their no-gay-romances stance.

Sadly, the old BioBoards are no more, so we can't cite the developer posts directly.

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

1. I love how those are the 2 extremes in apparently bound to. You couldn't have been more arbitrary if you tried.

Merin is accurately describing the developers' justifications for the lack of homosexual romance options in ME2.  There weren't any in ME, and people wanted some, so they asked on the BioBoards.  And BioWare said, no, there's no homosexuality in these games.  And players pointed out the Asari, which the developers then denied had any gender.

The game does say they are all-female, yes.  BioWare explicitly denied this later, however, when trying to defend their no-gay-romances stance.

Sadly, the old BioBoards are no more, so we can't cite the developer posts directly.

And Google cache failed me, at least for the time I spent trying to find proof of those discussions.  So I backed off my "BioWare said" assertions.  But thanks for backing me up. (And helping me further cement that I wasn't conflating the Star Wars and ME things. (I could not care less about Star Wars.))

Modifié par MerinTB, 02 août 2013 - 05:33 .

[o Ventus]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Merin is accurately describing the developers' justifications for the lack of homosexual romance options in ME2.  There weren't any in ME, and people wanted some, so they asked on the BioBoards.  And BioWare said, no, there's no homosexuality in these games.  And players pointed out the Asari, which the developers then denied had any gender.

The game does say they are all-female, yes.  BioWare explicitly denied this later, however, when trying to defend their no-gay-romances stance.

Sadly, the old BioBoards are no more, so we can't cite the developer posts directly.

The devs have also amply proven to be factually wrong with their statements. Take a look at, well, any of the statements made before ME3's release.

I'm more willing to take the word of something that has remained consistent for 6 years than 1 misplaced developer comment, when if what they said was true, all they would need to do is re-record the codex entry for ME2.

[MerinTB]

o Ventus wrote...
The devs have also amply proven to be factually wrong with their statements. Take a look at, well, any of the statements made before ME3's release.

I'm more willing to take the word of something that has remained consistent for 6 years than 1 misplaced developer comment, when if what they said was true, all they would need to do is re-record the codex entry for ME2.

Special pleading.

[o Ventus]

MerinTB wrote...

Special pleading.

Except it's not. I didn't ignore any counter evidence, it's just that the counter evidence rules itself irrelevant when it's been contradicted 3 times across 3 games and by later dev statements.

Believe it or not, developers CAN be wrong about their own game. It's happened before.

[LadyRaena13]

Ok people talking about "no homosexuality" in ME2...are you talking about JUST male and male? Because if I remember correctly FemShep could sleep with Kelly Chambers.

****As a side note my preference for nudity in the game is no do a simple fade to black at the makeout scene BECAUSE, it isn't fair that if they do nudity it will only be girls baring their bodies and not the guys too. SO for fairness it's easier and less controversial to fade to black.

[Iakus]

 Over and over it seems people think there can be only two possibilities:

Underwear shots
or 
The Witcher.

Seriously, what's wrong with a simple fade-to-black?  Believe it or not, there are R rated moves and TV-MA programs that don't have nudity.  People sleep together.  It's made abundantly clear that they do so.  And it's handled in a mature manner, But wihtout a "money shot"

Shocking, I know.

Nudity doesn't make romance any more mature, and I daresay there's a very real risk of making it less mature.  ME1 is about as far as I'd dare push it.

::insert violence but no sex=hypocrisy comment here::

Ah, glad you mentioned that, good sir or madam!

Yeah, the blood and gore in Dragon Age is rather over the top and silly.  I keep Persistent Gore off as a matter of course, and still find it to be at a rather silly extreme.  Blood=/=maturity any more than sex does.

So yes, underwear in the shower is silly.  underwear sex scenes are silly.  But full-on nudity is uneccessary and frankly I think would drag down the game, quality-wise.  Just do fade-to-black, strategically placed blankets, ro whatever, and let our imaginations fill in the blanks.  

We can probably come up with better stuff than the game's budget (and rating) would be able to handle anyway 

[Iakus]

EntropicAngel wrote...

My gosh, you should come over to this side more often, we might agree more.

I probably will, once there's more to talk about 

[LadyRaena13]

iakus wrote...

 Over and over it seems people think there can be only two possibilities:

Underwear shots
or 
The Witcher.

Seriously, what's wrong with a simple fade-to-black?  Believe it or not, there are R rated moves and TV-MA programs that don't have nudity.  People sleep together.  It's made abundantly clear that they do so.  And it's handled in a mature manner, But wihtout a "money shot"

Shocking, I know.

Nudity doesn't make romance any more mature, and I daresay there's a very real risk of making it less mature.  ME1 is about as far as I'd dare push it.

::insert violence but no sex=hypocrisy comment here::

Ah, glad you mentioned that, good sir or madam!

Yeah, the blood and gore in Dragon Age is rather over the top and silly.  I keep Persistent Gore off as a matter of course, and still find it to be at a rather silly extreme.  Blood=/=maturity any more than sex does.

So yes, underwear in the shower is silly.  underwear sex scenes are silly.  But full-on nudity is uneccessary and frankly I think would drag down the game, quality-wise.  Just do fade-to-black, strategically placed blankets, ro whatever, and let our imaginations fill in the blanks.  

We can probably come up with better stuff than the game's budget (and rating) would be able to handle anyway 

Bras in sex scenes are not silly and happen IRL more than you think. A lot of women I know personally cannot go too long without a bra on.  They have natural chests and don't have the money feel the desire to pay gravity to stop working. In anycase they sometime keep their bras on...obviously the undies in the shower and then in the hot tub was silly. BUT bras while having sex not so much. I Like the fade to black, I have an imagination I can fill in the blanks if I wanted to, I stress that it's easier and cheaper to do fade to black.

[devSin]

The team doesn't seem interested in nudity.

DA2's approach was fine by me, for the most part (some of the sequences were a bit better than others, but I don't think any were bad).

o Ventus wrote...

The devs have also amply proven to be factually wrong with their statements. Take a look at, well, any of the statements made before ME3's release.

I'm more willing to take the word of something that has remained consistent for 6 years than 1 misplaced developer comment, when if what they said was true, all they would need to do is re-record the codex entry for ME2.

What are you even arguing about? It was an excuse.

Nobody at BioWare actually thought the asari weren't female. It was simply their justification for not having any male same-sex content.

Shepard was a "predefined character", and Liara wasn't a woman.

Modifié par devSin, 02 août 2013 - 07:04 .

[o Ventus]

iakus wrote...

Seriously, what's wrong with a simple fade-to-black?  Believe it or not, there are R rated moves and TV-MA programs that don't have nudity.  People sleep together.  It's made abundantly clear that they do so.  And it's handled in a mature manner, But wihtout a "money shot"

There's nothing inherently wrong with a fade-to-black, but they are notoriously hard to pull off.

Subpar fades are worse than gratuitous nudity or a prudish lack of nudity. It comes off as wanting to be mature, but just looks stupid. There also bad fades that are simply rushed and unsatisfying. Case in point: the fade-to-black during the Miranda romance scene in vanilla ME3. Of course, that particular fade-to-black is only exacerbated by the lack of a followup (unlike the other romances) and Shepard teleporting and being locked out of the room.

[Iakus]

LadyRaena13 wrote...

Bras in sex scenes are not silly and happen IRL more than you think. A lot of women I know personally cannot go too long without a bra on.  They have natural chests and don't have the money feel the desire to pay gravity to stop working. In anycase they sometime keep their bras on...obviously the undies in the shower and then in the hot tub was silly. BUT bras while having sex not so much. I Like the fade to black, I have an imagination I can fill in the blanks if I wanted to, I stress that it's easier and cheaper to do fade to black.

Well, that was more in relation to the DAO scenes, where all the underwear of both parties was still clearly being worn 

Modifié par iakus, 02 août 2013 - 07:06 .

[esper]

iakus wrote...

LadyRaena13 wrote...

Bras in sex scenes are not silly and happen IRL more than you think. A lot of women I know personally cannot go too long without a bra on.  They have natural chests and don't have the money feel the desire to pay gravity to stop working. In anycase they sometime keep their bras on...obviously the undies in the shower and then in the hot tub was silly. BUT bras while having sex not so much. I Like the fade to black, I have an imagination I can fill in the blanks if I wanted to, I stress that it's easier and cheaper to do fade to black.

Well, that was more in relation to the DAO scenes, where all the underwear of both parties was still clearly being worn 

Do not forget Morrigan putting underwear on to have sex.

Anyway as long as it is not da:o's style I am fine with anything from fade to black to taste full cutting to shadowed sillouttes.

[o Ventus]

devSin wrote...

What are you even arguing about? It was an excuse.

It's a poor excuse that is factually wrong.

Nobody at BioWare actually thought the asari weren't female. It was simply their justification for not having any male same-sex content.

See #1. If we really want to dig, they invalidated themselves by initially having M/M and F/F romances in ME1, before cutting them.

Shepard was a "predefined character", and Liara wasn't a woman.

And both of these statements are false.

[devSin]

We agree. It was an invalid excuse when they made it, and it's just as invalid today.

Literally nobody is arguing otherwise.

[o Ventus]

devSin wrote...

We agree. It was an invalid excuse when they made it, and it's just as invalid today.

Literally nobody is arguing otherwise.

The "asari are women" thing started as a side comment. I have no idea why it grew. The main point was "there's no homosexuality in ME (before ME3)", which is also blatantly wrong.

[Fraq Hound]

esper wrote...

Do not forget Morrigan putting underwear on to have sex.

Anyway as long as it is not da:o's style I am fine with anything from fade to black to taste full cutting to shadowed sillouttes.

How do you feel about the love scene between Leonidas and his wife (Gerard Butler and Lena Headey) in the movie 300?

It's about 10-15 seconds long, titilating but not gratuitous and full of emotion.

It was very tastefully done IMO and much better then Bioware's usual fade to black scenes. I'm not saying the fade to black scenes can't be as good; Just saying that nothing we've seen so far has even come close.

Shadowed Sillouttes doesn't sound very compelling.

What does everyone else think of that scene?

[devSin]

o Ventus wrote...

The "asari are women" thing started as a side comment. I have no idea why it grew. The main point was "there's no homosexuality in ME (before ME3)", which is also blatantly wrong.

The clear statement was that BioWare has tried to imply there was no homosexuality (by saying that the things in ME that were gay—Liara having sex with female Shepard—weren't actually gay, because Liara wasn't female).

Nobody here actually believes that, but BioWare really did try to justify it that way. I'm still not sure what you're trying to argue.

Modifié par devSin, 02 août 2013 - 08:01 .

[esper]

Fraq Hound wrote...

esper wrote...

Do not forget Morrigan putting underwear on to have sex.

Anyway as long as it is not da:o's style I am fine with anything from fade to black to taste full cutting to shadowed sillouttes.

How do you feel about the love scene between Leonidas and his wife (Gerard Butler and Lena Headey) in the movie 300?

It's about 10-15 seconds long, titilating but not gratuitous and full of emotion.

It was very tastefully done IMO and much better then Bioware's usual fade to black scenes. I'm not saying the fade to black scenes can't be as good; Just saying that nothing we've seen so far has even come close.

Shadowed Sillouttes doesn't sound very compelling.

What does everyone else think of that scene?

I never seen the scene I felt asleep doing 300. So historically boring and my class room was so well half lit and warm that I just went ZZZZ.

That being said, it sound fine. I am honestly more interested in the chemestry between the two characters than in being titelated, but as long as it is not something you curl your toes seeing I am fine wiht it.

I think that da2 and all three Me's were fine. It showed the intimacy which is most important. Da:o were just silly.

[MerinTB]

devSin wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
The "asari are women" thing started as a side comment. I have no idea why it grew. The main point was "there's no homosexuality in ME (before ME3)", which is also blatantly wrong.

The clear statement was that BioWare has tried to imply there was no homosexuality (by saying that the things in ME that were gay—Liara having sex with female Shepard—weren't actually gay, because Liara wasn't female).

Nobody here actually believes that, but BioWare really did try to justify it that way. I'm still not sure what you're trying to argue.

He saw what he believed (right or wrong, not judging here) was homosexuality included in ME.   He though that I, personally, was saying that homosexuality wasn't in ME and told me that I must have played a different game.

I corrected him on what I meant.  He wouldn't admit he had been mistaken, and moved the goal posts.

He's arguing so he can't be wrong.

[o Ventus]

MerinTB wrote...

He saw what he believed (right or wrong, not judging here) was homosexuality included in ME.   He though that I, personally, was saying that homosexuality wasn't in ME and told me that I must have played a different game.

I corrected him on what I meant.  He wouldn't admit he had been mistaken, and moved the goal posts.

He's arguing so he can't be wrong.

This is what you said, word for word:

They pick their battles.  ME for two games claimed, quite loudly, that there was no homosexuality in the ME universe (Asari not really having a gender being their "reasoning" why females with Asari didn't count.)

"For two games" implies that the games themselves proclaim that there is no homosexuality in the in-game universe. This is what I was arguing against. If you were talking about Bioware, you didn't make it clear.

[devSin]

Yeah, he was talking about BioWare, in their bumbling attempts to justify having no male same-sex representation.

But it's par for the course with that team, it seems. These are the same people who bragged about asking the male actors' permission before even considering it for ME3.

Modifié par devSin, 02 août 2013 - 08:31 .