135 réponses à ce sujet

[Xewaka]

tmp7704 wrote...
Why do you consider "graphics" to be clearly separate from art style, instead of being part of it? Again, keep on mind that some styles are recognized specifically by techniques used to create the image. I.e. what you refer to as "graphics" if i understand it right. If that's wrong, please explain.

In simple (and possibly inaccurate in several ways) terms:
Graphics are what the engine is capable of churning out.
Style (or aesthetics) is the signature of the piece, what makes it recognizable.Consider the distinction between Gothic architecture and Romanesque architecture: column shapes, window shapes, etc. Each is a different style of architecture, because of this signature parts that single them out.

Modifié par Xewaka, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:22 .

[tmp7704]

Pseudocognition wrote...

They're soooooooooooooooo different.

* Textures have "lineart" like the concept art. (a deliberate stylistic choice)

* Stylized faces.

* Idealized/heroic proportions.

* Chunky/pieced/"cartoony" hairstyles reflected in the game.

* Atmospheric perspective has identical effects on the landscape.

* Very similar lighting.

I'd say the "lineart" in the game textures is actually hand-made emulation of ambient shading at edges/folds etc. They are otherwise v.different from the concept art -- game textures come with plenty of microtextures for more 'realistic' appearance of materials, while the concept art style appears to avoid it. Oddly enough texturing approach taken by other games (like GTA4) comes closer to matching DA2 concept art appearance, than DA2 the game does.

Aerial perspective is similar but only for the far plane. Still, that's probably one aspect which i do find matching between these two pieces. (the other is mix of pastels and red, but the game isn't too consistent about it)

The idea of idealized proportions/"stylized" faces being part of DA2 style specifically is ... well, it'd be easier to accept if these wasn't shared with million other titles including DAO. But granted, that is something both concept art and the game graphics have in common. Just hardly with only each other.

[GodWood]

I have many issues with the DA2 art direction but my main one would have to be the costuming. The actual outfits of the characters themselves never seemed to follow any kind of logical or practical flow nor do they seem to reflect the setting around them.

E.g. Isabella's outfit is not practical for what she does nor did it look like it belonged in the DA setting.

Personally would have preferred something like this:



Fenris' was kind of this taken to an extreme where he had very silly and bizarre and design choices that not only didn't fit but were never even remotely hinted at as to why he has them. (fan theories do not count)

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

tmp7704 wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

They're soooooooooooooooo different.

* Textures have "lineart" like the concept art. (a deliberate stylistic choice)

* Stylized faces.

* Idealized/heroic proportions.

* Chunky/pieced/"cartoony" hairstyles reflected in the game.

* Atmospheric perspective has identical effects on the landscape.

* Very similar lighting.

I'd say the "lineart" in the game textures is actually hand-made emulation of ambient shading at edges/folds etc. They are otherwise v.different from the concept art -- game textures come with plenty of microtextures for more 'realistic' appearance of materials, while the concept art style appears to avoid it. Oddly enough texturing approach taken by other games (like GTA4) comes closer to matching DA2 concept art appearance, than DA2 the game does.

Aerial perspective is similar but only for the far plane. Still, that's probably one aspect which i do find matching between these two pieces. (the other is mix of pastels and red, but the game isn't too consistent about it)

The idea of idealized proportions/"stylized" faces being part of DA2 style specifically is ... well, it'd be easier to accept if these wasn't shared with million other titles including DAO. But granted, that is something both concept art and the game graphics have in common. Just hardly with only each other.

I disagree on the first point. If I were going to try and emulate occlusion I'd do it a lot more subtly and not paint it in a consistently dark line. Admittedly the use of "lineart" in the textures is inconsistent from character to character but you can attribute that to many things, rush & different artists being among the possible reasons.

As I said on the last page, concept art is not meant to represent 100% of the final product.* To boot, the image we're discussing in this thread was for a rough animatic. The concept does indicate material differences. Concept art tells the modeler what to do and not all modelers need their hands held. If it's a rough sketch but all signs point to "this is a fur collar" then the modeler/texturer is going to make it a fur collar based on the style of the art direction.

*Something that IS meant to guide the artists towards a certain level of quality/fidelity/style is called a "Target Render" and I'm not sure I've seen any of those. They're not a requirement, either, I'd just wager most people like to have a unified vision of what they're aiming for.

The stylized faces are in the specific style of the artists that work on DA. It's a style unique to them. Converting it to 3D results in what we see in DA2.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:39 .

[DaJe]

The art design of Origins, while generic fantasy, did fit the game better. It had more contrast and actual dark and moody areas (like andrastes temple) with a gritty, mature feel to it and the ocasional view you could really apreciate. Not great, but not out of place either.

DA2 was an absolute disaster though. It seriously looked to me like a game that was released a decade too late. Apart from the very obvious technical shortcomings the style doesn't fit the franchise as I see it at all.
DA2 demonstrates that you can't just slap on "stylized" visuals and suddenly give the game a more unique identity. There are many factors that have to play together.

DA2 just ended up looking so incredibly bland, lifeless, brown, fake. Everything was evenly lit, the environments empty, characters looked like plastic and so did their equipment, oversized breasts everywhere.
It could not establish a real stmosphere in my opinion, probably to a great part because it was internally inconsistent. Environments look like paper, characters like plastic...meh.
I remember when seeing the first screenshots of DA2 I thought that this was some pre alpha material, without the lighting system in place or something like that. And if you compare the darkspawn directly, the new versions look not the least bit intimidating.

Style needs to be done right, which is something Blizzard is usually good at.
WarCraft 3 looks and feels right not matter when you play it. It will never seem outdated because it just looks the way it is supposed to. Bioware surely tried to go for something like that, but i must honestly say, it failed. DA2 is tasteless and doesn't appear to have any specific visual goal other than being bland. Atleast Mass Effect has it's own great identy and doesn't look like every other UE game.
Frostbite will offer a new start.

Modifié par DaJe, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:44 .

[Rawgrim]

Worcraft doesn`t look right at all. It looks like a cartoon.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

DaJe wrote...
DA2 just ended up looking so incredibly bland, lifeless, brown, fake. Everything was evenly lit, the environments empty, characters looked like plastic and so did their equipment, oversized breasts everywhere.
I remember when seeing the first screenshots of DA2 I thought that this was some pre alpha material, without the lighting system in place or something like that.

This is all an engine issue, and will no longer be a problem with Frostbite 2... breasts nonwithstanding.

[DaJe]

Rawgrim wrote...

Worcraft doesn`t look right at all. It looks like a cartoon.

And it stays true to that all the way. All fits together, which makes it work when you actually play it for some time.

[upsettingshorts]

GodWood wrote...

E.g. Isabella's outfit is not practical for what she does nor did it look like it belonged in the DA setting.

Oh good, something I am comfortable talking about, that's better.

Isabela and practical do not mix.  Isabela does not care about practicality one wit, and doesn't plan ahead.  She is spontaneous, a force of hedonistic nature.  Reasonable is not part of her character, so putting her in a practical outfit might serve say... player verisimilitude (which is what I assume your motivation for posting is), but it would detract from characterization by introducing inconsistency.

This is not something DA2 just... does randomly, either.  Sure, Isabela got a completely impractical outfit.  But Merrill dressed much the same way as her Dalish peers did, and Aveline - probably the best direct contrast to Isabela - is always in practical outfits.

I'm not sure I follow how it doesn't fit into the setting though, it's not as if DA:O lacked impractical, revealing light cloth and leather outfits. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:54 .

[berelinde]

I'm kinda curious what breasts have to do with atmosphere, but I will admit that I would have liked a bit more clutter on the DA2 set. I'm not complaining. OK, that's a lie. I missed the random bits of junk in the corners that DA:O had. I wasn't a fan of the DA2 interior walls that all looked like corrugated cardboard. That said, I did like the figure modeling better in DA2 (apart from the darkspawn). The torsos, particularly in the shoulder region, had much better anatomy, and I liked how the male faces looked more like real faces.

In other words, good with the bad. As with all things. And let's face it. I don't play video games solely for the aesthetics. If I did, I'd learn how to work 3D modeling software instead.

I'm curious to see how the game will look with the new engine. If it brings back the clutter, I'll be a happy camper, but I won't cry if it doesn't. There are more important things in a video game.

Modifié par berelinde, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:56 .

[upsettingshorts]

berelinde wrote...

I'm kinda curious what breasts have to do with atmosphere

There was a study published on this subject some years ago, if you're curious:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/27702297

[Rawgrim]

DaJe wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Worcraft doesn`t look right at all. It looks like a cartoon.

And it stays true to that all the way. All fits together, which makes it work when you actually play it for some time.

Ok, fair enough.

[berelinde]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

berelinde wrote...

I'm kinda curious what breasts have to do with atmosphere

There was a study published on this subject some years ago, if you're curious:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/27702297

Hmm. It might be better if I didn't open that link at work, but I'm going to assume that it has something to do with demographics? Not *my* demographic, but a demographic, nonetheless.

[tmp7704]

Pseudocognition wrote...

I disagree on the first point. If I were going to try and emulate occlusion I'd do it a lot more subtly and not paint it in a consistently dark line. Admittedly the use of "lineart" in the textures is inconsistent from character to character but you can attribute that to many things, rush & different artists being among the possible reasons.

I'm absolutely willing to accept you'd personally go about doing the occlusion differently; but at the same time we can easily chalk that up to difference in preferences between individual artists?   i.e. the fact you'd have done it differently doesn't mean the person who did that drawing wasn't doing occlusion in less subtle manner than you'd do it. I say it especially because if there's one thing that's quite consistent in DA graphics... they are anything but subtle in their approach. So crude take at occlusion actually fits this overall tendency pretty well, imo.

On the subject of texture detail, i think i view it differently -- the presence of detail or lack thereof in the concept isn't to me matter of "hand holding for the modeler" but establishing specific, overall feel of the visuals that should be the ultimate goal. Although i can agree you might want to limit that to 'target renders' ... but with a corollary this very distinction lends some validity to the view that the exact style of concept art and of resulting game can easily wind up quite different -- because the game/'target renders' can include aspects which the concept art may omit. It'll then boil down to whether you focus on similarities or differences between the pieces.

Modifié par tmp7704, 20 septembre 2012 - 01:13 .

[upsettingshorts]

berelinde wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

berelinde wrote...

I'm kinda curious what breasts have to do with atmosphere

There was a study published on this subject some years ago, if you're curious:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/27702297

Hmm. It might be better if I didn't open that link at work, but I'm going to assume that it has something to do with demographics? Not *my* demographic, but a demographic, nonetheless.

It got a fair amount of press.  Basically, a guy who owned an island invited a dozen or so well-endowed ladies to his property and filmed them as they engaged in volleyball and other activities.  It was a bit unapologetically voyeuristic in that respect, but peer reviews were surprisingly positive, if conclusions were somewhat mixed.

There was a follow up study, as well.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 septembre 2012 - 01:13 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

berelinde wrote...

I'm kinda curious what breasts have to do with atmosphere

There was a study published on this subject some years ago, if you're curious:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/27702297

Hmm. It might be better if I didn't open that link at work, but I'm going to assume that it has something to do with demographics? Not *my* demographic, but a demographic, nonetheless.

It got a fair amount of press.  Basically, a guy who owned an island invited a dozen or so well-endowed ladies to his property and filmed them as they engaged in volleyball and other activities.  It was a bit unapologetically voyeuristic in that respect, but peer reviews were surprisingly positive, if conclusions were somewhat mixed.

There was a follow up follow up study, as well.

I heard they were actually quite good at volleyball.

[berelinde]

^^Yeah, not my demographic. Anyway, this seems to be a discussion about arty things, and not being an artist, I'd better duck out and let them get on with it.

[Clover Rider]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

berelinde wrote...

I'm kinda curious what breasts have to do with atmosphere

There was a study published on this subject some years ago, if you're curious:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/27702297

Hmm. It might be better if I didn't open that link at work, but I'm going to assume that it has something to do with demographics? Not *my* demographic, but a demographic, nonetheless.

It got a fair amount of press.  Basically, a guy who owned an island invited a dozen or so well-endowed ladies to his property and filmed them as they engaged in volleyball and other activities.  It was a bit unapologetically voyeuristic in that respect, but peer reviews were surprisingly positive, if conclusions were somewhat mixed.

There was a follow up follow up study, as well.

I heard they were actually quite good at volleyball.

Better than you would think.

Also all the ladies knew martial arts for some reason, true story.

Modifié par Some Geth, 20 septembre 2012 - 01:17 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

tmp7704 wrote...
On the subject of texture detail, i think i view it differently -- the presence of detail or lack thereof in the concept isn't to me matter of "hand holding for the modeler" but establishing specific, overall feel of the visuals that should be the ultimate goal.

Well, as someone who does art for video games, I can tell you that every piece of concept art need not reflect EVERY detail of how the game ought to look. It's pretty hard to draw things exactly how you'd like them to appear on screen.

tmp7704 wrote...
Although[/i] i can agree you might want to limit that to 'target renders' ...but with a corollary this very distinction lends some validity to the view that the exact style of concept art and of resulting game can easily wind up quite different -- because the game/'target renders' can include aspects which the concept art may omit.

Slight differences, simplifications, and omissions do not mean that art is not part of a unified style. Concept art is like, artists talking to each other with shorthand. They're all talking about the same thing, so some things don't need to be fully explained. You only need to say "this object is shiny" once and everyone understands that it's shiny, you don't need to reestablish its shininess every time it comes up.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 20 septembre 2012 - 01:34 .

[Xewaka]

Some Geth wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

berelinde wrote...
I'm kinda curious what breasts have to do with atmosphere

There was a study published on this subject some years ago, if you're curious:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/27702297

Hmm. It might be better if I didn't open that link at work, but I'm going to assume that it has something to do with demographics? Not *my* demographic, but a demographic, nonetheless.

It got a fair amount of press.  Basically, a guy who owned an island invited a dozen or so well-endowed ladies to his property and filmed them as they engaged in volleyball and other activities.  It was a bit unapologetically voyeuristic in that respect, but peer reviews were surprisingly positive, if conclusions were somewhat mixed.
There was a follow up follow up study, as well.

I heard they were actually quite good at volleyball.

Better than you would think.
Also all the ladies knew martial arts for some reason, true story.

Ah, yes. Curiously enough, the main demographic interested in the documentary was not the expected 15-to-40 male population, but that bracket female population, due to the documentary serving in several ways as a bikini model pass.

Modifié par Xewaka, 20 septembre 2012 - 08:25 .

[Yrkoon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GodWood wrote...

E.g. Isabella's outfit is not practical for what she does nor did it look like it belonged in the DA setting.

Oh good, something I am comfortable talking about, that's better.

Isabela and practical do not mix.  Isabela does not care about practicality one wit, and doesn't plan ahead. 

Your point may be valid but, ironically, this isn't true.

In Legacy, Isabella states the reason why she doesn't wear pants.  And, shockingly, it's a practical reason.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

GodWood wrote...

I have many issues with the DA2 art direction but my main one would have to be the costuming. The actual outfits of the characters themselves never seemed to follow any kind of logical or practical flow nor do they seem to reflect the setting around them.

E.g. Isabella's outfit is not practical for what she does nor did it look like it belonged in the DA setting.

Personally would have preferred something like this:



Fenris' was kind of this taken to an extreme where he had very silly and bizarre and design choices that not only didn't fit but were never even remotely hinted at as to why he has them. (fan theories do not count)

That looks awesome. Not sexy enough for EA, though.

[Kail Ashton]

So the darker look of origins but the improved overall visuals of DA2

Soooooooo basicly just model it after the character art of the dragon age series, well with the new engine there's little doubt of a visual oberhaul (again) hopefully they can either find a happy middle ground or do something better then both games (which wouldn't be difficult at all frankly)