312 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

In addition, I loathed Tallis even before the ending option was present. From her initial presentation at the thief ambush, the annoying personality and having her entire character crammed down my throat, it wasn't hard to dislike her.

I'll admit that her introduction was... too much. I expect Qunari to be badasses at killing people, but... I dunno. From the way it was done it just seemed like Bioware might've been trying too hard. She kills 8 people, while Hawke and company are just standing around while the damn Antivan Crows are poised to attempt to kill him/her.

Just seems like too much. I probably would've been fine had Hawke and company been shown to be fighting some Crows while Tallis is also fighting others -- the way Bioware did it -- and then we go into battle with Hawke's "Who the blazes is that?!" comment.

Wouldn't have been quite as much like Bioware was trying to make her so damn awesome.

Dave of Canada wrote...

There's a difference between hating the character and hating the quality of writing, no?

I should certainly hope so.

Foolsfolly wrote...

Stenishok's my new favorite word. And I think my next Skyrim character will be named Thedas Stenishok.

Stenishok is an awesome word. As is Aristen.

As for the comic, I'm not sure when the next issue's coming out. So far the only one released has been the first.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 septembre 2012 - 07:33 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Death wishes....

In ye good old days everyone was killable.

Since quests are often resolved by what amounts to indiscriminate killing - fantasy RPGs are based heavily around killing people because they have green skin and you don't - it's odd that we can't resolve other disputes through combat.

I still have fond memories of returning from Ice Island in TotSC and promptly killing Shandalar for having sent me there.  He was a threat to my character, and throughout the rest of the game the way my character had dealt with threats was to kill them, so attacking Shandalar was a seamless roleplaying event.

I still don't like plot armour.  I really don't.

[SgtElias]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I loathed Tallis even before the ending option was present. From her initial presentation at the thief ambush, the annoying personality and having her entire character crammed down my throat, it wasn't hard to dislike her.

Same. I have no interest in killing her, per se, but she's one of two companions (the other being Velanna) that I vehemently dislike. I hope she doesn't return.

That said, if she did, well . . . who knows? Maybe I'm being unfair, and I'll end up liking her by the end. I know in the past I've changed from strongly disliking characters only to enjoy them later (Morrigan), and hating characters I started out loving (Merrill).

[Blacklash93]

Milan92 wrote...

 People who always feel the need to kill a character are weird. 

Not liking a character because they're too prominent or trying hard to be likable quickly becomes hatedom here.

I mean look at Liara in Mass Effect. Sure she suffers from such issues, but in regards to even things like promotional material people will sqee with joy whenever something bad happens to her and whine whenever she is so much as slightly mentioned. The games got a little showy with her at times, but she wasn't THAT bad.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 20 septembre 2012 - 09:49 .

[Sylvanpyxie]

Never got the obsession with wanting to kill off characters you don't like.

Tallis, as a Character, I dislike because of what she did to me, The Player. Mark of the Assassin wasn't Dragon Age 2 DLC - It was Tallis DLC, driven purely by Tallis' intentions, Tallis' goals and Tallis' beliefs in the Qun. As a Player, I disagree with Tallis' beliefs, and the Qun in general, and I should have had the option to prevent Tallis from achieving her goal. It's infuriating that the choice to stop her was stripped away from me.

I understand that plot armour is technically a requirement for characters that may be planned for future content, but it's still irritating to have that choice stripped so completely away from me, especially in a situation such as this.

Of course, these are Player gripes and they're completely unrelated to reasons that Tallis, as a character, should be dead in my game. So I'll try to put aside my opinion as a Player, and instead give you my opinion as a Hawke.

As a Hawke - My opinion on Tallis' manipulation differs with each character, but a lot of them have the kind of personality and beliefs that would leave them utterly disgusted by the fact that Tallis used them in such a manner to further the ultimate goal, and power, of the Qun. (Especially the Hawke that ended up with PTSD as a direct result of the Qunari Invasion in Kirkwall)

Athena Hawke, a level headed character with a diplomatic nature and a good heart, she cares deeply about her sister, Bethany (A Mage), and because of her deep love of Bethany, Athena is a firm believer is Mage freedom.

The Qunari, the society that Tallis is a part of, believe that mages should not only be contained, but their powers should be exploited for warfare. As far as Athena is concerned, mages of the Qun are abused, demoralized and exploited simply for being born with magical power and, beause of her devotion to mages and freedom in general, she would never allow Tallis to escape with the intelligence that she did, even if that meant potentially killing her.

She had no personal gripe against Tallis, even liked her before she discovered her allegiance to the Qun, but she would never have allowed Tallis to walk away with that much power. She would never risk that kind of knowledge ending up with the Qunari, even if it meant killing a potentially innocent thrall like Tallis.

As for why a new protagonist could ever possibly want to kill her? Personally speaking - My protagonist will likely be a Mage in Dragon Age 3, and Tallis serves the Qun - A society that openly abuses Mages and exploits their powers to full effect in times of conflict and war. Not really hard to believe that a free mage would feel extremely hostile towards someone that serves the Qun, and possibly want their head on a pike.

While this post is entirely my opinion on Tallis and I don't claim to speak for everyone - There are quite a number of reasons that Players might want Tallis dead. There are also a lot of reasons Hawkes, and future protagonists, might want her dead.

It's all quite justifiable, and I find it relatively insulting that people seem to believe it is all based solely around hatred for the character, or her voice actress.

Setting aside my gripes with the Mark of the Assassin DLC - I rather like Tallis as a character, and, if she had been introduced in any manner that didn't involve totally screwing me over and giving vital intelligence to the world's most oppressive super power, I would have very much liked to get to know her more.

Unfortunately, the state of the DLC itself, and Tallis' involvement in it, made it quite impossible for me, personally, to enjoy Tallis as a character.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 20 septembre 2012 - 11:07 .

[Shadow Fox]

Anarya wrote...

I don't really see why an option to kill Tallis is necessary. Just tell her to gtfo and be done with it. That said, I'd prefer not to have her return as a companion. I don't hate her, I'd just rather have that slot go to a different character.

If they force Tallis on you in DA3 forget it could have playable races and everthing else I want but if I have to put up with her again I'm not buying period.*yes that's how much I hate her*

[Lithuasil]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

snip
 ...while Tallis isn't a Mary Sue -- something she's slapped with too often -- I found that the very ending of the DLC made her close to being one.

Excuse me, but how is she not, even up to that point?

From her very first introduction, she's shown to be absurdly skilled in combat, all while being the special "I'm really a priest so it's ok" woman in arms under the qun. Her introductory scene is significantly longer then any of the other characters', and taken right out of the worst kind of anime, in terms of defying physics and reason.

She's also apparently the hottest person walking around in thedas. Upon talking with (fem)hawke, every person you meet immediately inquires who your "wonderfully beautiful and charming" companion was. The only person in the entire dlc who doesn't immediately falls in love with her is treated as despicable and blind because of that, because clearly, a deep seated, wholly irrational racism is the only possible explanation why someone would even consider looking at other women when tallis is in the country. Worse yet, if you openly flirt with Tallis, right infront of your LI, rather then getting jealous they actually straightup admit how hot tallis looks (atleast Merill of all people did), proving that the power of love is nothing, next to the "awesomeness" of a writer being enarmored with a character beyond all that is holy.

That you as the player are forced into the backseat, and unable to call her out on her insane troll logic, or butcher her as she desrves makes the failure in the writing so much more worse - but quite honestly, way before that she was a character that bad fanfictionwriters would have been ashamed off.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

meh Tallis is about a hundred times better than Anders.

[TEWR]

Lithuasil wrote...

Her introductory scene is significantly longer then any of the other characters', and taken right out of the worst kind of anime, in terms of defying physics and reason.

I said above that I consider it too much.

It however, does not defy physics or reason and is not anime. To label it such is just trying to make anime a meaningless buzzword, which suffice to say really irritates me.

It's realistic.

It's too much, but it's realistic. Too much in the sense that it just tries too hard to say "LOL she's so awesome", while Hawke is a bystander to the events until she says "Join in on the fun!"

Lithuasil wrote...

She's also apparently the hottest person walking around in thedas. Upon talking with (fem)hawke, every person you meet immediately inquires who your "wonderfully beautiful and charming" companion was. The only person in the entire dlc who doesn't immediately falls in love with her is treated as despicable and blind because of that, because clearly, a deep seated, wholly irrational racism is the only possible explanation why someone would even consider looking at other women when tallis is in the country.

I've never gotten that.

Then again, MotA corrupted my first DAII save, so I tend to not play DAII -- even for the companions, which was one of my few reasons for replaying DAII -- and am thus unfamiliar with much about the companion interactions with her.

Lithuasil wrote...

Worse yet, if you openly flirt with Tallis, right infront of your LI, rather then getting jealous they actually straightup admit how hot tallis looks (atleast Merill of all people did), proving that the power of love is nothing, next to the "awesomeness" of a writer being enarmored with a character beyond all that is holy.

Isabela gets jealous if you flirt with her as a Female Hawke. Not sure what Anders or Fenris do. I found Merrill's idea of "jealousy" kinda cute, actually. Felt very in-character.

Actually, Merrill's seemed to be less "OMG SHE IS HOT" and more "Oh so you find her attractive, do you?" -- meaning that she's a bit irritated by your flirting with her. Perhaps the accent just threw you off.

Though I do wish they'd show more philosophical Merrill and historical Merrill and less cute Merrill. I love cute Merrill, but I also greatly admire her philosophical/historical/intellectual side and want to see more of that.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 septembre 2012 - 11:07 .

[syllogi]

This thread is reminding me how sad it is that MotA was the last DA2 DLC. Please, devs, if you have any plans for "fluff" celebrity DLC ever again, could you schedule it for release *after* the important, player-centric DLC that ties up loose ends?

[Lithuasil]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


It however, does not defy physics or reason and is not anime. To label it such is just trying to make anime a meaningless buzzword, which suffice to say really irritates me.

It's realistic.

It's been a while (thank god), but I seem to quite clearly recall her parrying an arrow midair with a dagger and directing it into the throat of another antivan crow in an almost 90 degree angle. 
Explain to me, how you would even alter a projectiles trajectory like that, while maintaining terminal velocity. Then explain to me how someone is so absurdly perceptive, agile and fast, as to pull that off right in the flow of battle.

[Rawgrim]

Lithuasil wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


It however, does not defy physics or reason and is not anime. To label it such is just trying to make anime a meaningless buzzword, which suffice to say really irritates me.

It's realistic.

It's been a while (thank god), but I seem to quite clearly recall her parrying an arrow midair with a dagger and directing it into the throat of another antivan crow in an almost 90 degree angle. 
Explain to me, how you would even alter a projectiles trajectory like that, while maintaining terminal velocity. Then explain to me how someone is so absurdly perceptive, agile and fast, as to pull that off right in the flow of battle.

She also did a 50+ foot jump backwards through the air, right before the end battle. How this is not a Mary Sue character, I have no idea. It certainly defied physics.

[TEWR]

Lithuasil wrote...

It's been a while (thank god), but I seem to quite clearly recall her parrying an arrow midair with a dagger and directing it into the throat of another antivan crow in an almost 90 degree angle. 

Then you recall incorrectly.

She parries sword strikes and daggers, while dodging heavy weapons like Mauls. She uses the body of one wounded Crow to take the force of an arrow that's fired at her, while she then throws a dagger at the archer that fired.

Rawgrim wrote...

She also did a 50+ foot jump backwards through the air, right before the end battle. How this is not a Mary Sue character, I have no idea

That happened later on and is irrelevant to her introduction, which is what I'm currently addressing.

And if I can't say "Bloody Varric" to that instance, then Bioware I am disappoint.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 septembre 2012 - 11:14 .

[Rawgrim]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

It's been a while (thank god), but I seem to quite clearly recall her parrying an arrow midair with a dagger and directing it into the throat of another antivan crow in an almost 90 degree angle. 

Then you recall incorrectly.

She parries sword strikes and daggers, while dodging heavy weapons like Mauls. She uses the body of one wounded Crow to take the force of an arrow that's fired at her, while she then throws a dagger at the archer that fired.

Rawgrim wrote...

She also did a 50+ foot jump backwards through the air, right before the end battle. How this is not a Mary Sue character, I have no idea

That happened later on and is irrelevant to her introduction, which is what I'm currently addressing.

And if I can't say "Bloody Varric" to that instance, then Bioware I am disappoint.

I know it happens later. Was just tossing in an observation.

[Lithuasil]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Then you recall incorrectly.

She parries sword strikes and daggers, while dodging heavy weapons like Mauls. She uses the body of one wounded Crow to take the force of an arrow that's fired at her, while she then throws a dagger at the archer that fired.

True actually, I misremebered the arrow parrying - she just stabs and archer and singlehandedly directs his dieing body in such a way that he sends an arrow flying precisely in the throat of one of his comrades.
You and I seem to have quite different definitions of the word "realistic".

Regardless of whether she bends reality to an acceptable degree or not though - compare her introduction to the introductions of ALL other companions. At worst, we saw Fenris kill one guy, with the suggestion that he might have faced a few others. Usually, we see maybe a fight against one or two guys, or shooting a thief or even piece of paper. Tallis has a full two minutes of her butchering a dozen supposedly highly skilled assassins, without breaking a sweat and while putting the cirque du soleil to shame. (And enjoying the hell out of it, just to make her token pacifism so much more genuine).
So yeah - the point stands.

[The Hierophant]

Rawgrim wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

It's been a while (thank god), but I seem to quite clearly recall her parrying an arrow midair with a dagger and directing it into the throat of another antivan crow in an almost 90 degree angle. 

Then you recall incorrectly.

She parries sword strikes and daggers, while dodging heavy weapons like Mauls. She uses the body of one wounded Crow to take the force of an arrow that's fired at her, while she then throws a dagger at the archer that fired.

Rawgrim wrote...

She also did a 50+ foot jump backwards through the air, right before the end battle. How this is not a Mary Sue character, I have no idea

That happened later on and is irrelevant to her introduction, which is what I'm currently addressing.

And if I can't say "Bloody Varric" to that instance, then Bioware I am disappoint.

I know it happens later. Was just tossing in an observation.

Pfft...i saw the videos(didn't download MOTA) of Tallis dealing with her martial prowess, and all i have to say is... Kalam Mekhar or Apsalar solos.

[TEWR]

Lithuasil wrote...

Tallis has a full two minutes of her butchering a dozen supposedly highly skilled assassins, without breaking a sweat and while putting the cirque du soleil to shame. (And enjoying the hell out of it, just to make her token pacifism so much more genuine).
So yeah - the point stands.

And yeah, I've addressed that twice already. Three times counting this. So...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'll admit that her introduction was... too much. I expect Qunari to be badasses at killing people, but... I dunno. From the way it was done it just seemed like Bioware might've been trying too hard. She kills 8 people, while Hawke and company are just standing around while the damn Antivan Crows are poised to attempt to kill him/her.

Just seems like too much. I probably would've been fine had Hawke and company been shown to be fighting some Crows while Tallis is also fighting others -- the way Bioware did it -- and then we go into battle with Hawke's "Who the blazes is that?!" comment.

Wouldn't have been quite as much like Bioware was trying to make her so damn awesome.

Lithuasil wrote...

True actually, I misremebered the arrow parrying - she just stabs and archer and singlehandedly directs his dieing body in such a way that he sends an arrow flying precisely in the throat of one of his comrades.
You and I seem to have quite different definitions of the word "realistic".

No, she doesn't. She stabs a melee fighter, and when an archer is about to fire at her -- something she notices -- she directs his body to take the blow, and then throws one of her daggers at the archer, to which it lands in the throat of said archer.

She doesn't manipulate an archer to fire an arrow into another archer.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 septembre 2012 - 11:40 .

[Crowlover]

I rather like Tallis as a character and I find her to be an interesting collection of contradictions. She the only Qunari we've seen that is willing to express a range of emotions beyond stern authority, anger, and grudging respect (Although I wonder if that's just how Kossith are generally). I also find it interesting she admits that she lacks the certainty of most Qunari, even though she 'knows it is there'. I suspect she looks to the Qun as a balm for the wounds and scars she has suffered in her past (she seems to hint at that a lot in the DLC), but also struggles to excuse the Qun's short comings.

It is a shame the player wasn't allowed to force the issue about the list in the DLC, but the fact that we can not makes me suspect it is going to up in the future, and quite possibly in DA 3. So who know, maybe the OP will get their wish...then again she could also become a companion.

[Realmzmaster]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Tallis has a full two minutes of her butchering a dozen supposedly highly skilled assassins, without breaking a sweat and while putting the cirque du soleil to shame. (And enjoying the hell out of it, just to make her token pacifism so much more genuine).
So yeah - the point stands.

And yeah, I've addressed that twice already. Three times counting this. So...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'll admit that her introduction was... too much. I expect Qunari to be badasses at killing people, but... I dunno. From the way it was done it just seemed like Bioware might've been trying too hard. She kills 8 people, while Hawke and company are just standing around while the damn Antivan Crows are poised to attempt to kill him/her.

Just seems like too much. I probably would've been fine had Hawke and company been shown to be fighting some Crows while Tallis is also fighting others -- the way Bioware did it -- and then we go into battle with Hawke's "Who the blazes is that?!" comment.

Wouldn't have been quite as much like Bioware was trying to make her so damn awesome.

Lithuasil wrote...

True actually, I misremebered the arrow parrying - she just stabs and archer and singlehandedly directs his dieing body in such a way that he sends an arrow flying precisely in the throat of one of his comrades.
You and I seem to have quite different definitions of the word "realistic".

No, she doesn't. She stabs a melee fighter, and when an archer is about to fire at her -- something she notices -- she directs his body to take the blow, and then throws one of her daggers at the archer, to which it lands in the throat of said archer.

She doesn't manipulate an archer to fire an arrow into another archer.

You are correct The Ethereal Writer Redux. Tallis does not redirect an arrow. I just finished playing MoTA again. Tallis uses the body of a crow she has just killed to take the arrow that is fired. She then throws one of her daggers into the other enemy's throat. The dagger can be clearly seen embedded in the throat.

Fenris also kills several slavers you simply do not get to see it.,. The captain of the slavers calls out to the other slavers to come into the clearing after Hawke and Co. had dealt with the one's in the clearing. One of the slavers comes out dripping blood saying Captain and falls dead. Fenris comes out and states all your men are dead. So Fenris killed all the other men who were not in the clearing. He tells the captain to run back to his master. The Captain still tries to capture Fenris and is met with a hand through the chest.

Isabela also has no problem handling three men at once and could have easily killed all three. Realistic? If I wanted realistic I would not be playing Fantasy games. 

As I have stated before on these forums How much realism do you want in your fantasy games? That will vary depending on the person. I would suggest Mount and Blade for something close to true realism.

[Lithuasil]

Realmzmaster wrote...
Realistic? If I wanted realistic I would not be playing Fantasy games. 

As I have stated before on these forums How much realism do you want in your fantasy games? That will vary depending on the person. I would suggest Mount and Blade for something close to true realism.

While M&B actually has it's flaws in that department - I don't actually want "perfectly realistic" in every game (having it in one or two would be nice though). What I want, is for a game to be straight with me, and play by the rules it sets for itself.
If a game like say, BlazBlue tells me "This is Jin. Jin can pull surfboards made from ice, right out of thin air and run people over with it" I'm fine with that, and I can accept that these are the rules the world works on.
Now if a game like Dragon Age tells me (or atleast very strongly suggests in word and motion picture) that the world, magic aside, does actually run on the same laws (be it of physics, emotions or swordplay) as our world does, I expect the game to stick to that. And if those rules of "realism" that the game accepted to be judged by are broken, my suspension of disbilief is taking cracks.

(You do make an important point though - yes, Fenris killed a bunch of dudes. He did so offscreen, and afterwards apologized to hawke, because he would not have succeeded without help. Tallis on the other hand puts on her show right infront of everyone (while control is wrestled away from the player), only to immediately mock hawke for being forced to be awestruck. Because DA2 was about Hawke, but MotA was about Tallis) 

[LobselVith8]

David Gaider wrote...

I wouldn't worry about it. Chances are pretty slim that I'd put a character in the game solely because some psychopath on the forums demanded they be there in order to be murdered. Chances are far better, in fact, that such advocacy would entice me to include them and make them unkillable.

Actually, that's a lie. It wouldn't sway me, regardless. It's amusing they seem to think it might, however.

It doesn't take a psychopath to hate the Qunari and want to oppose them, even if it means killing the Qunari to protect the rest of Thedas from their tyranny. Not everyone is a fan of the passive approach; some people still wonder why Hawke did nothing about Tallis in MoTA, since the story (once again) railroaded the protagonist.

[Crowlover]

Lithuasil wrote...

Now if a game like Dragon Age tells me (or atleast very strongly suggests in word and motion picture) that the world, magic aside, does actually run on the same laws (be it of physics, emotions or swordplay) as our world does, I expect the game to stick to that. And if those rules of "realism" that the game accepted to be judged by are broken, my suspension of disbilief is taking cracks.

I'm not sure you can really say that though. Consider the rogue backstab ability, it literally transports the rogue from a enemies from front to their back in a sudden flash of smoke, and there is no indication its magical ability. Same thing with a warrior's Scythe ability, which seems to give them more charging power than a freight train (turning weak enemies into literal piles of gore). With those types of abilites is it really that "unrealistic" that Tallis can perform her arieal acrobatic nonsence in cut scenes?

[Rawgrim]

Crowlover wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Now if a game like Dragon Age tells me (or atleast very strongly suggests in word and motion picture) that the world, magic aside, does actually run on the same laws (be it of physics, emotions or swordplay) as our world does, I expect the game to stick to that. And if those rules of "realism" that the game accepted to be judged by are broken, my suspension of disbilief is taking cracks.

I'm not sure you can really say that though. Consider the rogue backstab ability, it literally transports the rogue from a enemies from front to their back in a sudden flash of smoke, and there is no indication its magical ability. Same thing with a warrior's Scythe ability, which seems to give them more charging power than a freight train (turning weak enemies into literal piles of gore). With those types of abilites is it really that "unrealistic" that Tallis can perform her arieal acrobatic nonsence in cut scenes?

The DA2 combat messed up immersion, yes. But Talis made matters alot worse with he backflip. Why sneak through a whole castle to get to a balcony, when she can clearly just jump right up onto it?

[Crowlover]

Rawgrim wrote...

Crowlover wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Now if a game like Dragon Age tells me (or atleast very strongly suggests in word and motion picture) that the world, magic aside, does actually run on the same laws (be it of physics, emotions or swordplay) as our world does, I expect the game to stick to that. And if those rules of "realism" that the game accepted to be judged by are broken, my suspension of disbilief is taking cracks.

I'm not sure you can really say that though. Consider the rogue backstab ability, it literally transports the rogue from a enemies from front to their back in a sudden flash of smoke, and there is no indication its magical ability. Same thing with a warrior's Scythe ability, which seems to give them more charging power than a freight train (turning weak enemies into literal piles of gore). With those types of abilites is it really that "unrealistic" that Tallis can perform her arieal acrobatic nonsence in cut scenes?

The DA2 combat messed up immersion, yes. But Talis made matters alot worse with he backflip. Why sneak through a whole castle to get to a balcony, when she can clearly just jump right up onto it?

She was wait for the ability to cooldown from before?