327 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

Olmert wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So, Olmert: why would it be negative if the Chantry wasn't involved with the Inquisition?

Because I personally believe that an "Inquisition", historically (both Earth and Thedas) and in other lore like WH40K, has been organized as an arm of a religion.  It's implicit in the baggage that most here agree attaches to the name.  I think it would be cowardly of BW to run from the implications of this term after they chose it knowing, and counting upon, what those implications are.

I disagree. I actually think clashing with the implications of such would be quite interesting, even possibly naming that as a direct reaction against the Inquisition of the past; basically, taking the name and idea, but this time doing it properly by not being so monomaniacal. Also, in Thedas' own history, the Inquisition has never been tied to a religious body.

I really like that idea. A lot. 

[LobselVith8]

IanPolaris wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Most people != all people

The protagonist is a unique individual. Why can't s/he buck the trend?

This is a rhetorical question.

In DAO you could.  If you were a human noble, you could explicitly be an Athiest.  Morrigan was also an explicit athiest.

-Polaris

Aveline can be argued to be an atheist, given her dialogue about the Maker. The Warden could also tell Leliana that Andraste was merely a woman, in direct contradiction to Andrastian faith, after the Urn of Sacred Ashes; the Surana Warden can talk about the Maker as a human god, rather than one he believes in, and mention that Andrastian faith culminated in the fall of the Dales (in dialogue with the Chantry sister in Ostagar, who sees you as a "heathen" afterwards). He can even tell Velanna that Andraste used their ancestors, when looking at a statute of Andraste.

[TEWR]

brushyourteeth wrote...

You can see as time goes on, particularly in the Legacy DLC, how he really wants the Chantry's version of the whole Black City debacle to be incorrect so that his radical actions against them can feel validated. As if proving they're wrong on one point will support mage freedom. He seems genuinely broken to hear that they may have been right about the creation of the darkspawn.

Anders also says he does believe the entire story when you give him the Tevinter Chantry amulet, which contradicts what he says in Legacy where he says it's all a big lie.

Could just be the crazy in him, but I doubt Bioware did that intentionally. I think they just did it because they wanted to, not realizing that they had already written Anders to be a believer in the Black City thing.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 septembre 2012 - 10:18 .

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...



I find the Chantry of Andraste to be a repugnant organization. We see how mages like Keili and Bethany have been adversely affected by the religious teachings of the Chantry. Alistair seemed to have disdain for how the Chantry treated its templars. I still recall Wynne making it clear in the City of Amaranthine that she didn't advocate for the Circles of Magi to break free from the Chantry because the Chantry would rather kill all the mages than see them free.

SPOILER




Which seems in contrast from which Justinia is doing. She helped the mages escape from the Lord Seeker in Asunder.
I'm pretty neutral about the Chantry, the templars and the mages, but I think that those three groups there are good people and bad people.

Modifié par hhh89, 20 septembre 2012 - 10:27 .

[LobselVith8]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I'd be willing to be that there are a lot of mages who like what Andraste stood for but are fed up with the post-Andraste Chantry's teachings on magic and the modern treatment of mages. Anders, I think, is really one of them.

You can see as time goes on, particularly in the Legacy DLC, how he really wants the Chantry's version of the whole Black City debacle to be incorrect so that his radical actions against them can feel validated. As if proving they're wrong on one point will support mage freedom. He seems genuinely broken to hear that they may have been right about the creation of the darkspawn.

Which contradicts what Anders said in Act II's Tevinter Chantry Amulet and in Awakening, where he says he believes in the Chantry's version of the fall of the Golden City. Ironically, Legacy proves the Chantry version to be wrong, despite the writers' attempts to force Anders to espouse pro-Chantry dialogue that contradicts his past dialogue and characterization.

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

You can see as time goes on, particularly in the Legacy DLC, how he really wants the Chantry's version of the whole Black City debacle to be incorrect so that his radical actions against them can feel validated. As if proving they're wrong on one point will support mage freedom. He seems genuinely broken to hear that they may have been right about the creation of the darkspawn.

Anders also says he does believe the entire story when you give him the Tevinter Chantry amulet, which contradicts what he says in Legacy where he says it's all a big lie.

Could just be the crazy in him, but I doubt Bioware did that intentionally. I think they just did it because they wanted to, not realizing that they had already written Anders to be a believer in the Black City thing.

Indeed in both DAA and DA2 (main game) Anders is a devout Andrastian.  He hates the Chantry but genuinely worships Andraste and most definately believes in the story of the black city (and tells you so when you give him the Tevinter Amulet as you say).  He also thinks that mages have been blamed enough for the actions of a few magisters (and I agree with him at least in that).  I think the legacy scene was just one more way to kick it to players in DA2 that sided with mages.  My biased but very real reaction to the Legacy scene.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ironically, Legacy proves the Chantry version to be wrong, despite the writers' attempts to force Anders to espouse pro-Chantry dialogue that contradicts his past dialogue and characterization.

Well, not totally wrong. They got some of the core bits down, though they were wrong about the when, the why, the what happened afterwards, and whatnot.

Really, the only thing they got right was that the Magisters did invade the "Golden" City. Everything else, wrong. Even the idea that the city was tainted by the Magisters' hand is wrong, hence my putting Golden in quotations.

And for all the talk of Corypheus being the first Darkspawn -- or one of them, anyway -- he's only the first Awakened Darkspawn, much like the Architect. Who by the Architect's own words are unable to hear the Call of the Old Gods or seek them out.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 septembre 2012 - 10:31 .

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ironically, Legacy proves the Chantry version to be wrong, despite the writers' attempts to force Anders to espouse pro-Chantry dialogue that contradicts his past dialogue and characterization.

Well, not totally wrong. They got some of the core bits down, though they were wrong about the when, the why, the what happened afterwards, and whatnot.

Considering the Tevinter Magisters didn't make the City black, they probably weren't the first darkspawn if the City was already Black, and entirely different types of darkspawn are initially encountered in dwarven historical accounts, I don't see why the writers had Anders saying that the Chantry was right. It's absurd!

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Really, the only thing they got right was that the Magisters did invade the "Golden" City. Everything else, wrong.

Exactly!

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Even for all the talk of Corypheus being the first Darkspawn -- or one of them, anyway -- he's only the first Awakened Darkspawn, much like the Architect. Who by the Architect's own words are unable to hear the Call of the Old Gods or seek them out.

Corypheus may not even be one of the first awakened darkspawn, if intelligent people were in the Golden/Black City before the Magisters were.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Corypheus may not even be one of the first awakened darkspawn, if intelligent people were in the Golden/Black City before the Magisters were.

I've posited before that the Primeval Thaig Dwarven Mages were the ones who originally invaded the Golden City, given how there is substantial evidence to show that the Dwarves and the Darkspawn are very much linked together in more then just a "bitter enemies" type of way.

Hell, maybe the City was never Golden. Maybe it was a prison meant to hold the Taint, and the Maker only made it seem Golden from the outside and talked about how it was his grand home. Given how Malvernis is the Taint incarnate -- which points to the Taint being an actual intelligent virus -- I wonder...

But I think I'm going too far off the rails now. Time to get back to how a Mage could be part of the Inquisition.

Yeah, I can only see that happening if it's the Seekers of Truth operating under a new title, and even then, I'd have to be able to express a lot of distrust towards working with them. Or be able to do things that might help my own character further his own agenda.

I doubt the Chantry will be able to be destroyed, but the protagonist certainly shouldn't be so happy-go-lucky about the prospect of working with the Chantry, especially if he/she is a Mage.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 septembre 2012 - 10:45 .

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yeah, I can only see that happening if it's the Seekers of Truth operating under a new title, and even then, I'd have to be able to express a lot of distrust towards working with them. Or be able to do things that might help my own character further his own agenda.

I doubt the Chantry will be able to be destroyed, but the protagonist certainly shouldn't be so happy-go-lucky about the prospect of working with the Chantry, especially if he/she is a Mage.

I don't have any interest in being railroaded into a pro-Chantry protagonist. Frankly, I dislike the institution. I hated how Hawke was forced to be religiously Andrastian as it is, and I don't find it interesting to be a member of the proto-templars (even if it is their newest incarnation).

[Reznore57]

We will have to see what inquisition really means in the DA universe.

The word inquisition has so much negativity IRL and has a lot of history attached to it...

But in Thedas , the truth is well , witches *do * exist.And i suppose after the Imperium crumbled , mages might have been a real threat.
Let's not forget they ruled almost all of Thedas , and lost everything.
My guess is , most of them were not happy and for a time "let's rebuild the imperium" was a very catchy idea.
It's not the same mages we face in modern Thedas , those people lived many years with the idea that their power give them any right.(the history of Kirkwall , the Bone Pit and so many things prove that the Imperium was really cruel)

My guess is at the time the Inquisition was " justified" , probably motivated by revenge and to protect themselves.

Now we will have to see why a new inquisition is needed , seems (from the survey) the chantry is falling to pieces , the mages and templars run amok.
And things are far from peaceful.

And the word Inquisition kinda mean to look for something (and not torture for the lols in the name of whatever) , I think DA 3 will be more about investigate than butcher witches .(Ok we're going to butcher tons of people , but i'm sure not just mages ^^)

[brushyourteeth]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

You can see as time goes on, particularly in the Legacy DLC, how he really wants the Chantry's version of the whole Black City debacle to be incorrect so that his radical actions against them can feel validated. As if proving they're wrong on one point will support mage freedom. He seems genuinely broken to hear that they may have been right about the creation of the darkspawn.

Anders also says he does believe the entire story when you give him the Tevinter Chantry amulet, which contradicts what he says in Legacy where he says it's all a big lie.

Could just be the crazy in him, but I doubt Bioware did that intentionally. I think they just did it because they wanted to, not realizing that they had already written Anders to be a believer in the Black City thing.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Which contradicts what Anders said in Act II's Tevinter Chantry Amulet and in Awakening, where he says he believes in the Chantry's version of the fall of the Golden City. Ironically, Legacy proves the Chantry version to be wrong, despite the writers' attempts to force Anders to espouse pro-Chantry dialogue that contradicts his past dialogue and characterization.

Yeah, what I meant to say (but didn't really emphasize well) is that you can see a progression in Anders' views all the way from DA:A right up to Legacy (which I always play near the end, so it's easy for me to assume that he's changed his mind since the Tevinter Chantry Amulet scene, though I realize now that's not the same for everybody).

The situation with Corypheus does prove that some parts of the Chantry story aren't lies, though.
1. There were magisters who intended to take over a Golden City in the Fade
2. The Old Gods lead them to do it
3. It did cause their corruption and the creation of the darkspawn

Unconfirmed:
- existence of the Maker
- status of the Black City before the magisters got there

I'd argue that it's not a for sure thing that the City was black already. When the magisters experienced it, it had already been blackened. Maybe their presence worked really quickly to blacken it? If you can see the Black City from every location in the Fade today and those magisters were magic-users (they were), then either they were able to see a Golden City in the Fade and be tempted by it, or the Black City moved in the Fade after they were cast down as a reminder. We have lore (even though it's from the Chantry) to support the first part, but the second is just a guess.

I'd wager it's not well worth debating until we know something more. Chantry-lovers will argue it *must* be true because Andraste said so, while Chantry haters will argue it *must* be false because the Chantry is evil and everything about it is wrong. Both points of view are kinda silly.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 20 septembre 2012 - 10:54 .

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't have any interest in being railroaded into a pro-Chantry protagonist. Frankly, I dislike the institution. I hated how Hawke was forced to be religiously Andrastian as it is, and I don't find it interesting to be a member of the proto-templars (even if it is their newest incarnation).

Well, when I say the Seekers of Truth, I mean more Cassandra's faction as opposed to Lamberts. But I do think that if they are the Cassandra faction of Seekers, that doesn't automatically make them pro-Chantry. You could be an Elven protagonist who's anti-Chantry but pro-Elves and sees the Chantry conflict as the best way to help the Elves.

Basically, you could become Shartan again.

It's all a matter of how Bioware goes about it. If we're forced to be Andrastians that actually want to help Divine Justinia V for no reason other then "I'm Andrastian", then it's bad.

If we can have a reprise of what our Wardens may have done, then that's another thing. Meaning how Xanthos Aeducan gave the Dwarves the aid of a human nation, their own Mages, and Bhelen as king in the fight against the Darkspawn.

That said, I'm still eternally pissed off at how Bioware failed to make Dwarf Nobles become King of Orzammar, as the entire society/history/lore says such a thing should be possible and there's nothing saying it shouldn't be.

[Olmerto]

brushyourteeth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Which contradicts what Anders said in Act II's Tevinter Chantry Amulet and in Awakening, where he says he believes in the Chantry's version of the fall of the Golden City. Ironically, Legacy proves the Chantry version to be wrong, despite the writers' attempts to force Anders to espouse pro-Chantry dialogue that contradicts his past dialogue and characterization.

Yeah, what I meant to say (but didn't really emphasize well) is that you can see a progression in Anders' views all the way from DA:A right up to Legacy (which I always play near the end, so it's easy for me to assume that he's changed his mind since the Tevinter Chantry Amulet scene, though I realize now that's not the same for everybody).

The situation with Corypheus does prove that some parts of the Chantry story aren't lies, though.
1. There were magisters who intended to take over a Golden City in the Fade
2. The Old Gods lead them to do it
3. It did cause their corruption and the creation of the darkspawn

Unconfirmed:
- existence of the Maker
- status of the Black City before the magisters got there

I'd argue that it's not a for sure thing that the City was black already. When the magisters experienced it, it had already been blackened. Maybe their presence worked really quickly to blacken it? If you can see the Black City from every location in the Fade today and those magisters were magic-users (they were), then either they were able to see a Golden City in the Fade and be tempted by it, or the Black City moved in the Fade after they were cast down as a reminder. We have lore (even though it's from the Chantry) to support the first part, but the second is just a guess.

I'd wager it's not well worth debating until we know something more. Chantry-lovers will argue it *must* be true because Andraste said so, while Chantry haters will argue it *must* be false because the Chantry is evil and everything about it is wrong. Both points of view are kinda silly.

Thank you for pointing this out.  I see many posters misstating the actual words from Corypheus. He does not use the word "already".  He says that the City "was black when we got there".  That hardly means that it was already black before the magisters tried to travel there, much less that the magisters didn't cause it.  In addition to the instantaneous blackening of the City as you note, it could have turned black when the pathway they used to travel there was connected to the City.  Something about a portal between two different planes of existence.  Who knows? 

We also know it was "gold" (or appeared to be) because Corypheus stated that they "sought the golden light".  Apparently, last they knew before they arrived, it was a place exuding a golden light.  That offers no evidence that the magisters didn't blacken the golden city; it seems like they probably did.  They just didn't know they did, as one can imagine.

And to confirm it, the dialog of the conversation with Anders suggests that he knew Corypheus had verified the Chantry's version of this event.

[LolaLei]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Olmert wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So, Olmert: why would it be negative if the Chantry wasn't involved with the Inquisition?

Because I personally believe that an "Inquisition", historically (both Earth and Thedas) and in other lore like WH40K, has been organized as an arm of a religion.  It's implicit in the baggage that most here agree attaches to the name.  I think it would be cowardly of BW to run from the implications of this term after they chose it knowing, and counting upon, what those implications are.

I disagree. I actually think clashing with the implications of such would be quite interesting, even possibly naming that as a direct reaction against the Inquisition of the past; basically, taking the name and idea, but this time doing it properly by not being so monomaniacal. Also, in Thedas' own history, the Inquisition has never been tied to a religious body.

I really like that idea. A lot. 

+1

[LobselVith8]

Olmert wrote...

Thank you for pointing this out.  I see many posters misstating the actual words from Corypheus. He does not use the word "already".  He says that the City "was black when we got there".  That hardly means that it was already black before the magisters tried to travel there, much less that the magisters didn't cause it.

If it was already Black when they got there, then I don't see room for interpretation. They went there because Dumat lead them there.

Olmert wrote...

In addition to the instantaneous blackening of the City as you note, it could have turned black when the pathway they used to travel there was connected to the City.  Something about a portal between two different planes of existence.  Who knows?

Or the Chantry could be wrong; considering the first darkspawn seen (according to dwarven records) weren't even human based, it's a possibility. Corypheus makes it clear he's angry because "it was supposed to be golden!" Ergo, it wasn't Golden when they arrived.

Olmert wrote...

We also know it was "gold" (or appeared to be) because Corypheus stated that they "sought the golden light".  Apparently, last they knew before they arrived, it was a place exuding a golden light.  That offers no evidence that the magisters didn't blacken the golden city; it seems like they probably did.  They just didn't know they did, as one can imagine.

It seems their right because Corypheus gives a completely different account than the Chantry does, to the point of excluding any mention of the Maker?

Olmert wrote...

And to confirm it, the dialog of the conversation with Anders suggests that he knew Corypheus had verified the Chantry's version of this event.

All Anders knows is that Corypheus is possibly a Magister; aside from the fact that Anders contradicts his own past statements and behavior in Legacy, Corypheus giving a different scenario than the Chantry's version doesn't prove the Chantry right.

[Olmerto]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Olmert wrote...

Thank you for pointing this out.  I see many posters misstating the actual words from Corypheus. He does not use the word "already".  He says that the City "was black when we got there".  That hardly means that it was already black before the magisters tried to travel there, much less that the magisters didn't cause it.

If it was already Black when they got there, then I don't see room for interpretation. They went there because Dumat lead them there.

You misread what I wrote. Corypheus did NOT use the word "already".  He said the City "was black when they got there".  That doesn't mean it was black BEFORE they arrived.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Olmert wrote...

In addition to the instantaneous blackening of the City as you note, it could have turned black when the pathway they used to travel there was connected to the City.  Something about a portal between two different planes of existence.  Who knows?

Or the Chantry could be wrong; considering the first darkspawn seen (according to dwarven records) weren't even human based, it's a possibility. Corypheus makes it clear he's angry because "it was supposed to be golden!" Ergo, it wasn't Golden when they arrived.

1. The Chantry still could be wrong on some things, but they're NOT WRONG that the City was gold, then the magisters travelled there and it was then black.
2.  It's irrelevant whether first Darkspawn were human.  Corypheus was corrupted as we could see, and the Chantry account of how Darkspawn originated doesn't depend on the race of the first Darkspawn.
3.  You just ignored the evidence I presented:  By Corypheus's own words, they were travelling to the golden light.  Ergo, when they departed for the golden city, it was still golden.  Otherwise they wouldn't have gone.  It was only black when they arrived.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Olmert wrote...

We also know it was "gold" (or appeared to be) because Corypheus stated that they "sought the golden light".  Apparently, last they knew before they arrived, it was a place exuding a golden light.  That offers no evidence that the magisters didn't blacken the golden city; it seems like they probably did.  They just didn't know they did, as one can imagine.

It seems their right because Corypheus gives a completely different account than the Chantry does, to the point of excluding any mention of the Maker?

No, it doesn't differ materially from the Chantry account.  But I agree with you that Corypheus gave no evidence of the Maker.  He only gave credibility to the account that the magisters attempted to travel to the golden city and it turned black.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Olmert wrote...

And to confirm it, the dialog of the conversation with Anders suggests that he knew Corypheus had verified the Chantry's version of this event.

All Anders knows is that Corypheus is possibly a Magister; aside from the fact that Anders contradicts his own past statements and behavior in Legacy, Corypheus giving a different scenario than the Chantry's version doesn't prove the Chantry right.

First, Corypheus didn't give a different account from the Chantry; to the extent he spoke he confirmed the expedition to the golden city.  As for Anders, Legacy came after DA2 so I take that as BW's latest word, and the fact that it purportedly changed Anders's view of the Chantry account event shows what Corypheus's dissembling was meant to convey.

In any event, it's you who are asserting that Corypheus disproved the Chantry account.  Therefore you must completely negate ANY interpretation of Corypheus's statements that would be consistent with the Chantry.  You haven't done that. 

Modifié par Olmert, 21 septembre 2012 - 01:52 .

[LobselVith8]

Olmert wrote...

You misread what I wrote. Corypheus did NOT use the word "already".  He said the City "was black when they got there".  That doesn't mean it was black BEFORE they arrived.

"It was supposed to be golden!" Corypheus says about the Black City.

Olmert wrote...

1. The Chantry still could be wrong on some things, but they're NOT WRONG that the City was gold, then the magisters travelled there and it was then black.
2.  It's irrelevant whether first Darkspawn were human.  Corypheus was corrupted as we could see, and the Chantry account of how Darkspawn originated doesn't depend on the race of the first Darkspawn.
3.  You just ignored the evidence I presented:  By Corypeus's own words, they were travelling to the golden light.  Ergo, when they departed for the golden city, it was still golden.  Otherwise they wouldn't have gone.  It was only black when they arrived.

1. No, there's no evidence that the Magisters turned it black, especially when Corypheus rants that it was black when they got there.
2. If the first darkspawn weren't human, it disproves the Chantry's claim that the Magisters were the first.
3. Corypheus says he sought the Light. He was going where Dumat told him to go.

Olmert wrote...

No, it doesn't differ materially from the Chantry account.  But I agree with you that Corypheus gave no evidence of the Maker.  He only gave credibility to the account that the magisters attempted travel to the golden city and found it black.

He gave no such account. He never said they saw the Golden City.

Olmert wrote...

First, Corypheus didn't give a different account from the Chantry; to the extent he spoke he confirmed the expedition to the golden city.  As for Anders, Legacy came after DA2 so I take that as BW's latest word, and the fact that it purportedly changed Anders's view of the Chantry account event shows what Corypheus's dissembling was meant to convey.

If Anders isn't making any sense, that doesn't make him right. Since Corypheus contradicts the Chantry version, it means he's wrong.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 septembre 2012 - 01:55 .

[Olmerto]

lol I can see you aren't going to be convinced, so I will have to leave it at that.  Others can make up their own mind based on what they've experienced and heard in the game.

[brushyourteeth]

Good points, all.
I think it's also worth noting that it's an insult to the intelligence of the magisters to assume that they, being mages and very familiar with the Fade, would have intentionally traveled to that Black City which is visible there all the time and somehow be surprised that it was black when they got there.

.... yeah, that just doesn't make any sense.

In fact, the codex entry on The_Fade says
"The study of the Fade is as old as humankind. For so long as men have dreamed, we have walked its twisting paths, sometimes catching a glimpse of the city at its heart. Always as close as our own thoughts, but impossibly separated from our world."

I don't know about you, but that strongly implies to me that the magisters should have known what they were getting themselves into. Or that the Maker is a big jerk and cloaked the Black City in goldenness just to be a troll.

But that doesn't mean I'm saying that the Chantry is right about everything. Just that their story may be based on some credible information.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:01 .

[BlazingSpeed]

Huntress wrote...

berelinde wrote...

 Historically, the Inquisition hunted mages, "heretics," and evidently anybody else with funny little ways. From the sound of the Codex entry, it sounded like a bunch of Andrastian witch hunters. After the signing of the Navarran Accord, they became the Templar Order. A mage protagonist in this role is... problematical, to say the least.

Since the idea was first raised, I have been plastering the forums with how little the idea of role-playing a canonically zealous protagonist appeals to me. I thought I was safe. I didn't think they would actually do it. Since their inception, BioWare has made games where some elements of the protagonist were defined (necessary, or the game would be impossible to write), but they have never made a game that told the player what his or her character actually believed. Bhaalspawn, hero of Neverwinter, Kalach-Cha (arguably not BW, but they have a forum for NWN2 here, so whatev), the Warden, Hawke, all of those characters had a pre-determined background, but that background made NO assumptions about the character's motivations or beliefs. Now, we're offered an Inquisitor protagonist. I do not want to have to role-play a character where the religious and political agendas are already part of the character's backstory. Considering the lore associations, I did not want to play this even with non-mage PCs. I'm not into that whole anti-hero thing, thanks.

Fortunately, I have a way of registering my lack of enthusiasm for this. Unless the protagonist is forced to join against values that s/he is given the opportunity to state openly and often ("You do realize that I vehemently oppose everything you stand for, your grace? Why would you want me to join when I would much rather see you lying in a pool of your own blood?"), there is no way I am buying this game. Probably not even then, if it's handled as clumsily as Best Served Cold and Orsino's endgame for the mage-siding Hawke.

My concern is that given the player outcry over apparent choices that have no real consequences, the solution was to take away the choices.

Since 2005, I have spent over $700 on BioWare games. I include duplicate copies I bought to replace worn-out or misplaced disks, but not copies I bought to give away as gifts. I am not narcissistic enough to think that anyone will miss me, but ultimately, the company may miss my money.

I am with you, I don't think it will really matters to this point but, heck I m not going down quietly.
Someone has to come out and start making  sense of all this mess.

Yep, when I first choose a human noble and after I read some of the books about the Chantry and the Mages I told Mother Malol and that Chantry Priest at Ostagar to shut it I even told the Traquil at Ostagar that magical Lobotomies were just plain awful (and now thanks to the discoveries in Asunder there is an alternative...).

I'm still waiting for a proper human Apostate mage origin although an origin similar to the DA:O ones where you spent some time at home before Duncan appeared and spirited you away (except for the dwarven noble origin...).

"Let them hunt and dread finding me"

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't have any interest in being railroaded into a pro-Chantry protagonist. Frankly, I dislike the institution. I hated how Hawke was forced to be religiously Andrastian as it is, and I don't find it interesting to be a member of the proto-templars (even if it is their newest incarnation).

Well, when I say the Seekers of Truth, I mean more Cassandra's faction as opposed to Lamberts. But I do think that if they are the Cassandra faction of Seekers, that doesn't automatically make them pro-Chantry. You could be an Elven protagonist who's anti-Chantry but pro-Elves and sees the Chantry conflict as the best way to help the Elves.

Basically, you could become Shartan again.

It's all a matter of how Bioware goes about it. If we're forced to be Andrastians that actually want to help Divine Justinia V for no reason other then "I'm Andrastian", then it's bad.

If we can have a reprise of what our Wardens may have done, then that's another thing. Meaning how Xanthos Aeducan gave the Dwarves the aid of a human nation, their own Mages, and Bhelen as king in the fight against the Darkspawn.

That said, I'm still eternally pissed off at how Bioware failed to make Dwarf Nobles become King of Orzammar, as the entire society/history/lore says such a thing should be possible and there's nothing saying it shouldn't be.

If I was a mage protagonist, I don't think I'd side with Divine Justina V. I'd want to create a mecca for mages, not capitulate to the organization that oppressed my people for almost a thousand years. I don't see a reason to work with Cassandra, either; different goals and all.


And Bioware's recton of the Magi Origin means my Surana Warden was stabbed in the back after saving the world. As Fiona said, "F**k the Divine." The Chantry isn't worth saving.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:19 .

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...


If I was a mage protagonist, I don't think I'd side with Divine Justina V. I'd want to create a mecca for mages, not capitulate to the organization that oppressed my people for almost a thousand years. I don't see a reason to work with Cassandra, either; different goals and all.

They already have a mecca, Tevinter.

If you're looking to create a utopia rather than a mage dominant society, why specifically exclude people who don't possess magic?

Also this "my people" talk sort've smacks of the same reasoning that people use to justify going after elves or mages. Identifying an entire organization/belief system/group of people based on the actions of a few and procceeding to generalize those actions seems a bit extreme. 

[Samzo77]

I can think of a couple ways the Inquisitor could be a Mage without presupposing the PCs belief system:
- the inquisition is commissioned by some group other than the chantry. A nation, collection of nations, the wardens, wealthy businessmen, etc.
- if it is the chantry, the current divine is known to be a bit of a wild card, and the Templars have been known to act without her approval. No reason she wouldn't be Mage friendly, or find it pleasingly ironic to put a Mage in charge.
- as I've seen suggested already, there could be a class-based origins story, allowing your Mage to be discovered and deemed trustworthy.

There are lots of ways for this to work, you just have to trust the writers to come up with something good. Considering they've been working on this game for 18 months already, and have a late 2013 target date, I think they will have sufficient time to set it up in a way that answers the questions and alleviates the fears.