327 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

Samzo77 wrote...

- if it is the chantry, the current divine is known to be a bit of a wild card, and the Templars have been known to act without her approval. No reason she wouldn't be Mage friendly, or find it pleasingly ironic to put a Mage in charge.

That would actually be really cool. Without knowing anything about her I already visualize her as pompous and dignified(being both Orlesian and used to having people do what she says). It would totally be awesome if she was instead a normalish person with a streak of rebelliousness and love for irony.

Modifié par Vandicus, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:28 .

[LobselVith8]

Vandicus wrote...

They already have a mecca, Tevinter.

Considering Tevinter enslaves mages and non-mages alike, you're wrong.

Vandicus wrote...

If you're looking to create a utopia rather than a mage dominant society, why specifically exclude people who don't possess magic?

Why exclude an anti-mage religious organization and its members? The Chantry put mages under their heel for almost a millennia, and vilified them to the point where innocent mages were killed by anti-mage hysteria.

Vandicus wrote...

Also this "my people" talk sort've smacks of the same reasoning that people use to justify going after elves or mages. Identifying an entire organization/belief system/group of people based on the actions of a few and procceeding to generalize those actions seems a bit extreme. 

The plight of the elves, and forcing mages into servitude to the Chantry, is going to make certain individuals care about "their people."

[Samzo77]

Vandicus wrote...

Samzo77 wrote...

- if it is the chantry, the current divine is known to be a bit of a wild card, and the Templars have been known to act without her approval. No reason she wouldn't be Mage friendly, or find it pleasingly ironic to put a Mage in charge.

That would actually be really cool. Without knowing anything about her I already visualize her as pompous and dignified(being both Orlesian and used to having people do what she says). It would totally be awesome if she was instead a normalish person with a streak of rebelliousness and love for irony.

If I'm not mistaken, the current divine is the woman who helps Leliana in the Leliana's Song DLC for origins. You also see her a bit in Asunder, the book, and it's implied that she is friendly to Wynne.

[General User]

Samzo77 wrote...

- the inquisition is commissioned by some group other than the chantry. A nation, collection of nations, the wardens, wealthy businessmen, etc.

That would be very interesting.  You're absolutely right.  There no way to tell who or what this inquisition will be targeting, or for who.

Perhaps the Crowned Heads of Thedas are using the weakness of the Chantry to declare their relgious independence from Val Royeaux ala Henry VIII and they need an iquisitor to purge dangerous elements from the land, Templar and mage alike.

Or 1001 other things really.

- if it is the chantry, the current divine is known to be a bit of a wild card, and the Templars have been known to act without her approval. No reason she wouldn't be Mage friendly, or find it pleasingly ironic to put a Mage in charge.

Well... the Templars left the Chantry at the end of DA2  They are no longer seeking the Divine's approval for anything.  I'm just sayin'.

Plus, Justinia has indeed shown herself to be "mage-friendly", her position of compromise and reform is really in everyone's best interests.

- as I've seen suggested already, there could be a class-based origins story, allowing your Mage to be discovered and deemed trustworthy.

Ideally no one would be appointed as an inquisitor unless those appointing them consider them trustworthy.  Again, I'm just sayin'.

There are lots of ways for this to work, you just have to trust the writers to come up with something good. Considering they've been working on this game for 18 months already, and have a late 2013 target date, I think they will have sufficient time to set it up in a way that answers the questions and alleviates the fears.

Aye, very much so.  There are oh, so many ways an inquisitor or an inquisition could be worked into a story I agree that it's a bit silly to get worked up about it for the time being.

Besides, no matter what, I'm sure there will be plenty of chance for the player to express both pro and anti Chantry/Templar/mage sentiments.

[TEWR]

Olmert wrote...

Thank you for pointing this out.  I see many posters misstating the actual words from Corypheus. He does not use the word "already".  He says that the City "was black when we got there".

It was supposed to be Golden! It was supposed to be ours!

The light. We sought... the golden light. But it was black, corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?

That seems to indicate that it was never truly golden, and only appeared such.

And given how the Chantry dogma states that when the Magisters trespassed in the City, it was blackened after the Maker spoke to them in a booming voice -- "Marvel at perfection, for it is fleeting" -- and Corypheus says nothing about hearing any voice nor even seeing something so perfect on the inside as it appeared on the outside, then.... well...

I'm left to believe it was never Golden.

And to confirm it, the dialog of the conversation with Anders suggests that he knew Corypheus had verified the Chantry's version of this event.

Corypheus doesn't verify the Chantry's version of the event. The timeline is off, Corypheus' own statements say nothing about his drinking buddies and himself tainting the Halls of Creation, and Anders contradicts what he said in Act 2 when he's given the Tevinter Chantry Amulet.

Anders believes the story one minute, doesn't the next, then believes it again once he finds out that Corypheus was an ancient Magister that invaded the "Golden" City, the Halls of Creation.

That's the only thing the Chantry got definitively right. That the Magisters did, in fact, step foot into the City.

The Chantry religion is not 100% factual on what they preach. Their religion has only a grain of truth amidst a sea of lies, exaggeration, and stories.

LobselVith8 wrote...

If I was a mage protagonist, I don't think I'd side with Divine Justina V. I'd want to create a mecca for mages, not capitulate to the organization that oppressed my people for almost a thousand years. I don't see a reason to work with Cassandra, either; different goals and all.

Divine Justinia V is about the closest thing that you can get to a mecca for Mages. She is the voice of the Chantry. If she's willing to work with the Mages, then the populus will flock to her, more so with the chaos the New Inquisition will create from a lack of lyrium and, if the Mages are smart, having them do beneficial things with their magic.

And if the Mages offer her their support/protection against the Rogue Templars -- the New Inquisition -- that want to assassinate her, then that will increase their positive perception in the eyes of the public. That they would, through all of this, protect her would garner them more support from the public -- leading to the Templars losing support and the arguments for Mage reforms being strengthened -- and lead to more and more reasons for Mages to have families, homes outside of the Circle, and whatnot.

Within reason, anyway. No restrictions in place is a bad move.

Right now, this is about geopolitics, racial politics, and the like. If you want to create a world where Mages can live freely -- or at least have limited freedom -- amongst the common man, the Divine is assuredly the best chance of that while also minimizing casualties. If the Mages are willing to keep a calm and level head while also arguing for what they want -- saying the war can't go on, but neither will they return to what they endured -- then that will further increase perception of magic and mages being a good thing.

Especially with Ferelden being increasingly pro-mage, Gregoir being a fair-minded man, and my belief that Justinia V will establish Ferelden as her new HQ instead of Orlais, due to the turmoil that is going on both politically there and religiously.

The Circles are necessary, in the sense of the education they teach Mages. The Templars are necessary, in the sense that someone must be willing to protect Mage and Mundane alike and for when Abominations/Malicious Maleficarum roam the country and create havoc.

Samzo77 wrote...

you just have to trust the writers to come up with something good.

I don't.

It can be done. Hell, I could come up with a myriad of ways a Mage could be viably recruited into the Seekers of Truth -- now rechristened the Inquisition, assuming that's actually who the Inquisition is -- without possibly encroaching upon the player's possible beliefs/desires but I don't see Bioware as being able to do it.

Not after DAII and... unfortunately... MotA.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 septembre 2012 - 03:16 .

[General User]

Samzo77 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Samzo77 wrote...

- if it is the chantry, the current divine is known to be a bit of a wild card, and the Templars have been known to act without her approval. No reason she wouldn't be Mage friendly, or find it pleasingly ironic to put a Mage in charge.

That would actually be really cool. Without knowing anything about her I already visualize her as pompous and dignified(being both Orlesian and used to having people do what she says). It would totally be awesome if she was instead a normalish person with a streak of rebelliousness and love for irony.

If I'm not mistaken, the current divine is the woman who helps Leliana in the Leliana's Song DLC for origins. You also see her a bit in Asunder, the book, and it's implied that she is friendly to Wynne.

That's her.  JTITD,  here's a link to Divine Justinia's codex entry from DA2 for anyone who may be interested.

[Ravenmyste]

i get the feeling when we play as are mages in da3, we will get more hateful npcs/mobs on us and trying to cause are game play to be hectic and scary with how everything is how it is now

Modifié par Ravenmyste, 21 septembre 2012 - 03:26 .

[ElitePinecone]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, when I say the Seekers of Truth, I mean more Cassandra's faction as opposed to Lamberts. But I do think that if they are the Cassandra faction of Seekers, that doesn't automatically make them pro-Chantry. You could be an Elven protagonist who's anti-Chantry but pro-Elves and sees the Chantry conflict as the best way to help the Elves.

It's all a matter of how Bioware goes about it. If we're forced to be Andrastians that actually want to help Divine Justinia V for no reason other then "I'm Andrastian", then it's bad.

Speculation, but I have a feeling this is how they'll go about it. We'll be helping Leliana/Cassandra in order to "save the world", it's tacitly 'helping' the Chantry but indirectly and incidentally, especially if the Chantry as an organisation is compromised by the start of the game. The focus is on Cassandra/Leliana's resources and contacts, not their religious affiliation. Unless, I suppose, the player character does actually (choose to?) use faith as a motivating factor.

It might be more of an 'allies out of necessity' thing, though obviously we don't know how they're going to write it. Given the huge consequences of what seems to happen at the start, the issue of who is organising a response seems a bit trivial - I'd imagine the focus would be "omgwtfbbq halp". 

(Also, just because there were questions about it, the marketing survey did mention the player would be leading the Inquisition as 'the Inquisitor', from its foundation, after a big event that wipes out the Chantry's leadership)

[Vandicus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

They already have a mecca, Tevinter.

Considering Tevinter enslaves mages and non-mages alike, you're wrong.

Vandicus wrote...

If you're looking to create a utopia rather than a mage dominant society, why specifically exclude people who don't possess magic?

Why exclude an anti-mage religious organization and its members? The Chantry put mages under their heel for almost a millennia, and vilified them to the point where innocent mages were killed by anti-mage hysteria.

Vandicus wrote...

Also this "my people" talk sort've smacks of the same reasoning that people use to justify going after elves or mages. Identifying an entire organization/belief system/group of people based on the actions of a few and procceeding to generalize those actions seems a bit extreme. 

The plight of the elves, and forcing mages into servitude to the Chantry, is going to make certain individuals care about "their people."

Lobsel I'm merely addressing your idea of a mage mecca. Specifically the "mage" part. Your statement suggests exclusion of all non-mages. The Chantry does not encompass all non-mages. Also the Chantry prevented the wholesale slaughter of mages as will occur now that there is war rather than tenuous peace. Plan A. for the average member of the populace, regardless of Chantry input would be to kill the mages(due to the crimes of a few people who are mages rather than the group as a whole). The Chantry's existence prevents this and the Circle system reduces the chances of possession(its still a violation of human rights but is arguably better than the alternative). The Chantry does not opress mages for giggles or without any reason. Anyways, my question was simply about why you stated a mage mecca. Not a mecca where everyone of all races and beliefs can live in harmony without opressing each other, but specifically a mage one. That smacks of the same attitude as would be opressors. I would merely like clarification on this point. 

The things that mages do are going to make certain individuals care about "their people" aka non mages. The focus on, "these people are my people because they are like me in way X" is how divides like humans vs elves and mages vs nonmages come into being. Perpetuating that does not help.

[Zoe]

I hope it is not true that the only option is to work for or lead the Inquisition. It was bad enough that Shepard was forced to work for Cerberus, which I didn’t like at all for paragon Shepard, now my mage might be forced to be part of the Inquisition!

I was hoping that for DA3 they would give players more choices, and if there were sides, they would let us pick which to join and have the world react to that. I am waiting to hear official info about this, though, before I make my decision about whether to get the game or not.

[Vandicus]

Keriana wrote...

I hope it is not true that the only option is to work for or lead the Inquisition. It was bad enough that Shepard was forced to work for Cerberus, which I didn’t like at all for paragon Shepard, now my mage might be forced to be part of the Inquisition!

I was hoping that for DA3 they would give players more choices, and if there were sides, they would let us pick which to join and have the world react to that. I am waiting to hear official info about this, though, before I make my decision about whether to get the game or not.

Having to work with Cerberus did stink, although I enjoyed being able to question Cerberus's methods straight to the boss.

Hopefully the Inquisition is a more neutral organization shaped by the PC's actions. People shouldn't be stressing out about the Chantry affiliation till we know more. Lots of organizations, including the Grey Wardens(official religion of the organization is Andrastian), are affiliated with the Chantry in Thedas. So many of these affiliations are trivial or superficial. Hopefully the Inquisition's is similar, or the affiliation is non intrusive. 

[Xilizhra]

Lobsel I'm merely addressing your idea of a mage mecca. Specifically the "mage" part. Your statement suggests exclusion of all non-mages. The Chantry does not encompass all non-mages. Also the Chantry prevented the wholesale slaughter of mages as will occur now that there is war rather than tenuous peace. Plan A. for the average member of the populace, regardless of Chantry input would be to kill the mages(due to the crimes of a few people who are mages rather than the group as a whole). The Chantry's existence prevents this and the Circle system reduces the chances of possession(its still a violation of human rights but is arguably better than the alternative). The Chantry does not opress mages for giggles or without any reason. Anyways, my question was simply about why you stated a mage mecca. Not a mecca where everyone of all races and beliefs can live in harmony without opressing each other, but specifically a mage one. That smacks of the same attitude as would be opressors. I would merely like clarification on this point.

The fact that a system is better than total anarchy doesn't make the Chantry's solution good, worthwhile, or worthy of any kind of protection. A better solution can and will be found. The Chantry believing that it has a good cause doesn't make that cause or solution a good one.

As for the mecca thing? It's a mecca that includes mages, hence is a mecca for mages. It doesn't have to exclude anyone else.

[Vandicus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lobsel I'm merely addressing your idea of a mage mecca. Specifically the "mage" part. Your statement suggests exclusion of all non-mages. The Chantry does not encompass all non-mages. Also the Chantry prevented the wholesale slaughter of mages as will occur now that there is war rather than tenuous peace. Plan A. for the average member of the populace, regardless of Chantry input would be to kill the mages(due to the crimes of a few people who are mages rather than the group as a whole). The Chantry's existence prevents this and the Circle system reduces the chances of possession(its still a violation of human rights but is arguably better than the alternative). The Chantry does not opress mages for giggles or without any reason. Anyways, my question was simply about why you stated a mage mecca. Not a mecca where everyone of all races and beliefs can live in harmony without opressing each other, but specifically a mage one. That smacks of the same attitude as would be opressors. I would merely like clarification on this point.

The fact that a system is better than total anarchy doesn't make the Chantry's solution good, worthwhile, or worthy of any kind of protection. A better solution can and will be found. The Chantry believing that it has a good cause doesn't make that cause or solution a good one.

As for the mecca thing? It's a mecca that includes mages, hence is a mecca for mages. It doesn't have to exclude anyone else.

True, I agree. Not trying to say the system is perfect, or even good. In fact I feel its really shoddily implemented. The point there was the Chantry as an organization is not opressing mages for the evulz.

As for the mecca thing, his statements imply exclusivity when combined with the statement of "my people". I'm just asking for clarification. While I appreciate that you attempted to provide some, I would prefer clarification from Lobsel.

[IanPolaris]

The Grey Wardens are NOT affiliated with the Chantry. The Grey Wardens predate the Chantry and are their own law. The Grey Wardens may have been on friendly terms with the early Orlesian Empire but that doesn't make them affiliated with the Chantry...and you can be a Grey Warden in good standing without being Andrastian at all (and many Dalish have to name one example).

-Polaris

[esper]

hhh89 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...


I think I understand what you're saying, and I definitely respect your preference as a gamer. Though I'm not sure what that actually had to do with my post. 

And there's a very strong chance that you just won't get your wish. Most people we meet in Thedas worship Andraste. You're inevitably going to be in a situation where you can't be a jerk to every single one of them.

Chantry =/=Andraste. I don't know esper's opinion about Andraste (which could be the same she has for the Chantry) being an Andrastian doesn't mean being pro-Chantry. I believe Anders is Andrastian, for example.

I have no opinion on Andraste. I mean I rather doubt that she actually spoke to the Maker, but what she actiually was is impossible to know.

I find the Chantry's official version of the Andrastian faith unsetteling, because the whole abusive parent thing the Maker has going for the world in their version. I also worry for the fact that it most be spread to all four corner of the world and for the fact that it is mixed with the Orlesian Goverment and Orlais is an empire with expanding dreams.

I have nothing against the common human/city elf Andrastian. They are allowed to their faith, it is not my problem nor my busniness. Its the organisation I have a problem with.

[ElitePinecone]

Keriana wrote...

I hope it is not true that the only option is to work for or lead the Inquisition. It was bad enough that Shepard was forced to work for Cerberus, which I didn’t like at all for paragon Shepard, now my mage might be forced to be part of the Inquisition!

I was hoping that for DA3 they would give players more choices, and if there were sides, they would let us pick which to join and have the world react to that. I am waiting to hear official info about this, though, before I make my decision about whether to get the game or not.

People are assuming that the Inquisition is a violent campaign of persecution backed by religious zealots and targeted towards mages.

We have no evidence that any of those things are the case.

What we do know is that it's formed directly in response to an unseen force spreading chaos in Thedas, contains a Tevinter magister, an elven rogue and a Qunari mercenary and that people associated with it (Cassandra, say) are strongly aligned with the moderate wing of the Chantry, in direct opposition to Lambert's Seekers.

What we do know is that the blurb explicitly states players have choices about how they go about the Inquisition - by violence or intrigue, diplomacy or politics, and they decide how it proceeds. They are, in effect, vital in the Inquisition's formation. 

What we also know is that this Inquisition is something new, confronting an evil supernatural-Veil-thing that threatens everyone, and it occurs right after a peace conference is torn to pieces. Someone behind the scenes has an interest in ensuring the conflicts in Thedas aren't solved, and the Inquisitor's job is to put everything back together.

[TEWR]

ElitePinecone wrote...

What we also know is that this Inquisition is something new, confronting an evil supernatural-Veil-thing that threatens everyone

Oh God...

[ElitePinecone]

^ Well, maybe.

But that behind the scenes manipulator does use proxies in the real world of politics and war, so (I think) a large part of the game seems to be dealing with very real crises: the Orlesian civil war, the Chantry's split, the conflict with the mages, Ferelden tensions... as well as spelunking to find sekrits in ruins and caves and such, it looks like. There's a lot of room for storytelling that deals with the politics of Thedas, personal conflicts (the magister wants to break down Tevinter's system of mage-aristocracy, the Qunari has unfinished business with his people) and lore/history/exploration.

We don't know much but I like the sound of it.

[TEWR]

I want Bioware to be more political. But if I find out they resorted to an evil-supernatural-Veil-like distortion that's causing all of this chaos, I'll be pissed.

And by causing, I mean controlling. As in there's no free will whatsoever. Anything anyone does is just because someone's being manipulated by something else.

If the Veil crisis is just "We're thinning the Veil too damn much!", then that I can get behind.

[terdferguson123]

My guess is that the "Inquisition" is not going to be a group that you as a player start off in,but may join via choice at some point or they will become the enemy again dependent on choice. If you read Asunder, the Templar's and Seekers have basically broken off from the chantry as a means to keep order despite doing against the chantry's will. My point is, I think that the group that the Templars/Seekers form will be called the Inquisition, and they will basically just be making mage's lives a living a hell. Whether or not the player joins them or they are the enemy would be up to choice.

[ElitePinecone]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I want Bioware to be more political. But if I find out they resorted to an evil-supernatural-Veil-like distortion that's causing all of this chaos, I'll be pissed.

And by causing, I mean controlling. As in there's no free will whatsoever. Anything anyone does is just because someone's being manipulated by something else.

If the Veil crisis is just "We're thinning the Veil too damn much!", then that I can get behind.

Hm, I agree that actual mind control would be a fairly strange plot path - it was bad enough with Merideth in DA2 and the artifact everyone forgot about until it turned her into an irrational bouncing grasshopper-Templar. 

But I think (from the way it's worded) that this manipulation is way more nuanced, it's about someone or something saying the right things to the right people to push factions and leaders towards conflict. Sure, the mages and Templars might be coerced into fighting - but they both claim legitimate greivances and conflicts, and there's a strong element of human drama and politics there. Ditto with Ferelden-Orlais tensions, an Orlesian civil war, etc. Even if at the very top there's deception going on, they're already primed for conflict. A subtle force could influence events with the power of persuasion, rather than outright mind control. 

It's worth pointing out that whatever this force is doesn't have direct control over whoever tried to make peace at a conference in Orlais (we know the Chantry leadership was there, and I'm assuming also the mages). because the conference was clearly intending to negotiate peace when it was attacked and destroyed. The unseen manipulator would hardly wipe out that conference if it could actually control its leaders.

(One of the potential names was The Breach, which does seem ominous) 

[TEWR]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Hm, I agree that actual mind control would be a fairly strange plot path - it was bad enough with Merideth in DA2 and the artifact everyone forgot about until it turned her into an irrational bouncing grasshopper-Templar.

Conceptually, the lyrium idol could've worked in regards to Meredith -- and was indeed necessary, from a literary perspective IMO -- had things been done differently and more appropriately.

But as is? Definitely not implemented very well.

ElitePinecone wrote...

But I think (from the way it's worded) that this manipulation is way more nuanced

I should hope so. The worldstate right now is very much capable of providing such a thing. A very multilayered, down-to-earth, nuanced, and very intricate conflict that aptly brings Thedas into a World War.

Also, do you happen to have a link for where you found out all of this?

[byzantine horse]

Maybe they will take a note out of The Witcher 2 and have branching story, allowing you to truly pick sides: Fight the inquisition because they commit evil things in their crusade against evil, or join them for the greater good, with huge differentiation between them.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Filament wrote...
DA2 felt insufficient not just because it had supernatural elements, but because the elements felt like crutches rather than, um, big, muscular legs. Yeah, that analogy totally worked.

Hey, Meredith's legs were pretty manly 

But I agree.  I might not be the biggest fan of George R.R. Martin's writing as of late, but he employs the supernatural well.  It's an element to his stories, and an important one, but it's not the only one.  There's much more driving the plot and complicating events than than magic or Others or dragons.