327 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Honestly, with the disproportionate number of people on this forum who are Anti-Templar, I figure Pro-Chantry and Pro-Templar fans such as myself have much more to worry about when it comes to having choice taken away from one's hands.

signed, a disgruntled Cerberus fan.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 septembre 2012 - 10:56 .

[Renmiri1]

Shutting the war down without resolving the underlying issues that brought all things to a crisis will be useless.

Circle of Magi has to end. Templar abuse has to end. Blood mage violence has to end.

[berelinde]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Again, it's one thing to say "Please let's not have to be devoutly Andrastian!" and another to list five reasons why we obviously will be. That's silly - the game was announced yesterday.

Anybody expressing that view in this thread has been instantly attacked. Listing reasons is an attempt to explain the basis for the concern in respectful manner. As you say, the game was just announced. There is time for BioWare to address the concerns of fans on a variety of subjects. That doesn't mean we should wait until the last possible moment to let them know what those concerns are.

[Morroian]

Wulfram wrote...

We're speaking english, and words carry baggage.  If Bioware are not deliberately invoking the real world connotations of the word then they're idiots.

Of course they are but it seems to me from the information available so far that they will be twisting it, deliberately so.

berelinde wrote...
I would rather let knowledge of the game convince me to buy it than speculations from people who don't know any more about it than I do. 

But you aren't, you're doing exactly the same thing you accuse others of doing, just in the opposite direction. 

Modifié par Morroian, 18 septembre 2012 - 11:04 .

[Calians]

MisterJB wrote...

Honestly, with the disproportionate number of people on this forum who are Anti-Templar, I figure Pro-Chantry and Pro-Templar fans such as myself have much more to worry about when it comes to having choice taken away from one's hands.

signed, a disgruntled Cerberus fan.

I know right? I'm Pro-Templar and Pro-Chantry(I'm a DA2 male-mage). Infact I think Chantry is a good "order" if I can call it that. In DA2 she tries her best to keep the peace and keep templars and mages from gutting each other in public but then..Anders changed all that. So I'm more worried about our choices rather than the pro-mage peoples choices..not many of us in the crowd.

[MisterJB]

Calians wrote...
I know right? I'm Pro-Templar and Pro-Chantry(I'm a DA2 male-mage). Infact I think Chantry is a good "order" if I can call it that. In DA2 she tries her best to keep the peace and keep templars and mages from gutting each other in public but then..Anders changed all that. So I'm more worried about our choices rather than the pro-mage peoples choices..not many of us in the crowd.

May the Maker watch over you, brother, as we fight for Her Holiness, Divine Justinia V.

[mordy_was_here]

MisterJB wrote...

Calians wrote...
I know right? I'm Pro-Templar and Pro-Chantry(I'm a DA2 male-mage). Infact I think Chantry is a good "order" if I can call it that. In DA2 she tries her best to keep the peace and keep templars and mages from gutting each other in public but then..Anders changed all that. So I'm more worried about our choices rather than the pro-mage peoples choices..not many of us in the crowd.

May the Maker watch over you, brother, as we fight for Her Holiness, Divine Justinia V.

*Pro-Templar fist-bump.*

[Wulfram]

Are you Pro-Templar or Pro-Divine? Going by Asunder, you'll have to choose.

[BioFan (Official)]

berelinde wrote...

 Historically, the Inquisition hunted mages, "heretics," and evidently anybody else with funny little ways. From the sound of the Codex entry, it sounded like a bunch of Andrastian witch hunters. After the signing of the Navarran Accord, they became the Templar Order. A mage protagonist in this role is... problematical, to say the least.

Since the idea was first raised, I have been plastering the forums with how little the idea of role-playing a canonically zealous protagonist appeals to me. I thought I was safe. I didn't think they would actually do it. Since their inception, BioWare has made games where some elements of the protagonist were defined (necessary, or the game would be impossible to write), but they have never made a game that told the player what his or her character actually believed. Bhaalspawn, hero of Neverwinter, Kalach-Cha (arguably not BW, but they have a forum for NWN2 here, so whatev), the Warden, Hawke, all of those characters had a pre-determined background, but that background made NO assumptions about the character's motivations or beliefs. Now, we're offered an Inquisitor protagonist. I do not want to have to role-play a character where the religious and political agendas are already part of the character's backstory. Considering the lore associations, I did not want to play this even with non-mage PCs. I'm not into that whole anti-hero thing, thanks.

Fortunately, I have a way of registering my lack of enthusiasm for this. Unless the protagonist is forced to join against values that s/he is given the opportunity to state openly and often ("You do realize that I vehemently oppose everything you stand for, your grace? Why would you want me to join when I would much rather see you lying in a pool of your own blood?"), there is no way I am buying this game. Probably not even then, if it's handled as clumsily as Best Served Cold and Orsino's endgame for the mage-siding Hawke.

My concern is that given the player outcry over apparent choices that have no real consequences, the solution was to take away the choices.

Since 2005, I have spent over $700 on BioWare games. I include duplicate copies I bought to replace worn-out or misplaced disks, but not copies I bought to give away as gifts. I am not narcissistic enough to think that anyone will miss me, but ultimately, the company may miss my money.

This Was one of the first questions asked when the survey was leaked. I strongly doubt Bioware would make the orginization we work for ,heck, lead  anti-mage. 

[Huntress]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

 Mage Inquisitor.  Misitor.

But, seriously, I don't see any problems with this.  The Templars are in rebellion as much as the mages are, and the Inquisitor is going to more need qualities like "are you a mighty badass capable of getting stuff done?".  Mages have that quality in spades.  Shooting lightning from their eyes and fireballs from their arse is not a disqualifying factor.

And now mages are useful?

Really? lets sweet this shall we
this is somewhat  from a collection of old posts, people who are anti-mages and few writers with great ideas
of why mages are a threat:

IS anyone really going to trust a mage that could turn into a demon at any giving moment?
They are a time bomb.
  mages are worst than a plague.
Anders..
Mages already have enough power, are you all so quick to give them freedom as well?
We most learn what do they want and then send them back to the circle of magi.
do I have to remind you of tevinter? hmm?
I don't want to have a mage as neighbours. ( you probably thought I would have forgotten by now) meh.

So seen a mage as inquisitor is.. alot more wierd than seen a  qunary burning himself to reach the qun wihtout having to wait for a boat that will never arrive.

Having a mage leader of an organization called inquisition?.. hmm just can't..imagine such a thing happening in orlais at the heart of the Chantry, no I can not.

Modifié par Huntress, 18 septembre 2012 - 11:27 .

[MisterJB]

Wulfram wrote...

Are you Pro-Templar or Pro-Divine? Going by Asunder, you'll have to choose.

Only if you don't make distinctions between the Templar Order and Lambert's followers.
Right now, Justinia V appears to be the more reasonable amongst those involved in this debate and my Inquisitor would give her his loyalty much like Cassandra and Leliana. Of course, moderates tend to die so, I'll wait and see.

Ultimately, choice is good. If I can choose to be anti-mage revolution and, within this choice, also have to choose between Lambert and Justinia, Bioware is doing a good job.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 septembre 2012 - 11:31 .

[Lithuasil]

I haven't read through the whole thread, so maybe this has already been brought up - but if, as the chantry, you'd want a mage-rebellion calmed down, wouldn't it be a great political move to appoint some particularly devout or loyal mage to a high ranking position, as a peace-offering (and perhaps to justify why the inquisition is able to judge crimes committed during the rebellion - a justification any purely mundane tribunal would lack in the eyes of the rebels)

[Huntress]

Lithuasil wrote...

I haven't read through the whole thread, so maybe this has already been brought up - but if, as the chantry, you'd want a mage-rebellion calmed down, wouldn't it be a great political move to appoint some particularly devout or loyal mage to a high ranking position, as a peace-offering (and perhaps to justify why the inquisition is able to judge crimes committed during the rebellion - a justification any purely mundane tribunal would lack in the eyes of the rebels)

To get the good side of the innocents who will be murdered by rabid mages?.. of course they would! But.. would they go agaisnt their laws of having a mage in a political position? mages aren't suppose to have any political status, thats agaisnt chantry laws, should they bend the laws? maybe, but then they will be lieying, isn't? do you want liars to have total power? I dont, I rather have a blood-mage.

[Lithuasil]

I'll go ahead and assume not the entire inquisition will be mages - but the point stands, having mages in their ranks lends a lot more legitimacy to the affair, in terms of calming the rebellion, as opposed to yet another order of purely mundane magehunters (and subsequently haters, as one leads to the other)

[Sable Rhapsody]

Renmiri1 wrote...
Shutting the war down without resolving the underlying issues that brought all things to a crisis will be useless.

Circle of Magi has to end. Templar abuse has to end. Blood mage violence has to end.

Sure, but how you resolve the underlying issues will (hopefully) be up to you as you play through DA3.  And I'm sure there are more and less violent ways of going about it.  It looks like by the time of Asunder things have gotten bad enough where diplomacy is no longer really an option, but there's nothing stopping you from trying to get the two sides to work out a solution rather than just murdering the whole lot of them.

Lithuasil wrote...
I'll go ahead and assume not the entire inquisition will be mages - but the point stands, having mages in their ranks lends a lot more legitimacy to the affair, in terms of calming the rebellion, as opposed to yet another order of purely mundane magehunters (and subsequently haters, as one leads to the other)

 

This.  And besides, if there are mages who want to help the Inquisition voluntarily, it would be idiotic to turn them away.  If the world really sucks as badly in DA3 as Asunder and the snippets of leaked information indicate, the Inquisition probably needs all the help it can get.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 19 septembre 2012 - 12:00 .

[Huntress]

"I'll go ahead and assume not the entire inquisition will be mages - but
the point stands, having mages in their ranks lends a lot more
legitimacy to the affair, in terms of calming the rebellion, as opposed
to yet another order of purely mundane magehunters (and subsequently
haters, as one leads to the other)
"

you can totally do that
I want to see how Bioware will make plausible for a mage to be in power of such a strong organization without say organization been under chantry rule, control or wing.
was this mage an inquisitor before or after DA2? How many more contradiction we will find before the game is out?
I find all this very interesting.

Modifié par Huntress, 19 septembre 2012 - 12:06 .

[Calians]

Mel213 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Calians wrote...
I know right? I'm Pro-Templar and Pro-Chantry(I'm a DA2 male-mage). Infact I think Chantry is a good "order" if I can call it that. In DA2 she tries her best to keep the peace and keep templars and mages from gutting each other in public but then..Anders changed all that. So I'm more worried about our choices rather than the pro-mage peoples choices..not many of us in the crowd.

May the Maker watch over you, brother, as we fight for Her Holiness, Divine Justinia V.

*Pro-Templar fist-bump.*

There any tags for pro-templars or tags for the Divine Justinia V? If not I might make a couple later on to get this divine movement going 

[brushyourteeth]

Calians wrote...

Mel213 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Calians wrote...
I know right? I'm Pro-Templar and Pro-Chantry(I'm a DA2 male-mage). Infact I think Chantry is a good "order" if I can call it that. In DA2 she tries her best to keep the peace and keep templars and mages from gutting each other in public but then..Anders changed all that. So I'm more worried about our choices rather than the pro-mage peoples choices..not many of us in the crowd.

May the Maker watch over you, brother, as we fight for Her Holiness, Divine Justinia V.

*Pro-Templar fist-bump.*

There any tags for pro-templars or tags for the Divine Justinia V? If not I might make a couple later on to get this divine movement going 

I'm on-board with that! But make sure you remember that being pro-Justinia isn't necessarily the same thing as pro-Templar anymore. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

Huntress wrote...
I want to see how Bioware will make plausible for a mage to be in power of such a strong organization without say organization been under chantry rule, control or wing.

The Chantry's hold is crumbling by Asunder, and might be pretty weak in DA3.  For all we know, the Inquisition might be an Orlesian government organization, or a multinational task force to try and stop the war.  I somewhat doubt it, but it may not have anything to do with the Chantry at all.

And some extraordinary mages do end up in positions of responsibility and power.  The mage Warden in DA:A becomes arl/arlessa of Amaranthine, Warden-Commander of Ferelden, possibly consort to the King.  A mage Hawke in DA2 can still become Champion, even though s/he is apostate.  Though to be fair, they only achieved those positions after doing awesome things.

[Calians]

@brushyourteeth Yeah true that, regardless though I think having a tag from both would be cool beans:lol:

Modifié par Calians, 19 septembre 2012 - 12:22 .

[Huntress]

berelinde wrote...

 Historically, the Inquisition hunted mages, "heretics," and evidently anybody else with funny little ways. From the sound of the Codex entry, it sounded like a bunch of Andrastian witch hunters. After the signing of the Navarran Accord, they became the Templar Order. A mage protagonist in this role is... problematical, to say the least.

Since the idea was first raised, I have been plastering the forums with how little the idea of role-playing a canonically zealous protagonist appeals to me. I thought I was safe. I didn't think they would actually do it. Since their inception, BioWare has made games where some elements of the protagonist were defined (necessary, or the game would be impossible to write), but they have never made a game that told the player what his or her character actually believed. Bhaalspawn, hero of Neverwinter, Kalach-Cha (arguably not BW, but they have a forum for NWN2 here, so whatev), the Warden, Hawke, all of those characters had a pre-determined background, but that background made NO assumptions about the character's motivations or beliefs. Now, we're offered an Inquisitor protagonist. I do not want to have to role-play a character where the religious and political agendas are already part of the character's backstory. Considering the lore associations, I did not want to play this even with non-mage PCs. I'm not into that whole anti-hero thing, thanks.

Fortunately, I have a way of registering my lack of enthusiasm for this. Unless the protagonist is forced to join against values that s/he is given the opportunity to state openly and often ("You do realize that I vehemently oppose everything you stand for, your grace? Why would you want me to join when I would much rather see you lying in a pool of your own blood?"), there is no way I am buying this game. Probably not even then, if it's handled as clumsily as Best Served Cold and Orsino's endgame for the mage-siding Hawke.

My concern is that given the player outcry over apparent choices that have no real consequences, the solution was to take away the choices.

Since 2005, I have spent over $700 on BioWare games. I include duplicate copies I bought to replace worn-out or misplaced disks, but not copies I bought to give away as gifts. I am not narcissistic enough to think that anyone will miss me, but ultimately, the company may miss my money.

I am with you, I don't think it will really matters to this point but, heck I m not going down quietly.
Someone has to come out and start making  sense of all this mess.

[brushyourteeth]

Calians wrote...

@brushyourteeth Yeah true that, regardless though I think having a tag from both would be cool beans:lol:

I'm pretty pro-Chantry and VERY pro-Justinia, though the Templars need.... a makeover. And I'm not talking about the uniforms! 

Still, I think this thread is supposed to be about whether you can be a mage and be part of the Inquisition, either in good conscience as a mage or even just as part of the game mechanics.

I think the answers will be yes, and yes. I don't see this Inquisition being much of an issue of religion, honestly. I see them involved in something bigger than just mage v templar. And even the battle that's being fought now consists largely of Andrastians v. other Andrastians. It's not really a religious war, unless you want to argue that the mages adopt a different view of the Chant than the disenfranchised Templars/Seekers do. Which they might -- but it doesn't seem to be one of their major platforms, so it's kind of a non-issue.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 19 septembre 2012 - 12:37 .

[Calians]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Calians wrote...

@brushyourteeth Yeah true that, regardless though I think having a tag from both would be cool beans:lol:

I'm pretty pro-Chantry and VERY pro-Justinia, though the Templars need.... a makeover. And I'm not talking about the uniforms! 

Still, I think this thread is supposed to be about whether you can be a mage and be part of the Inquisition, either in good conscience as a mage or even just as part of the game mechanics.

I think the answers will be yes, and yes. I don't see this Inquisition being much of an issue of religion, honestly. I see them involved in something bigger than just mage v templar. And even the battle that's being fought now consists largely of Andrastians v. other Andrastians. It's not really a religious war, unless you want to argue that the mages adopt a different view of the Chant than the disenfranchised Templars/Seekers do. Which they might -- but it doesn't seem to be one of their major platforms, so it's kind of a non-issue.

Exactly what I think..but making these sigs for pro-temps and pro-chantry is harder than I thought..might be a couple days

[Lithuasil]

For one thing in particular - being a mage and a high ranking inquisitor, if handled well, would take away a lot of the sillyness / breaks in immersion that DA2 had in stock for mages (throwing fireballs right in front of cullen etc).

[ElitePinecone]

RolandX9 wrote...

kibblesticks wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

What I do find interesting is the potential for subversion: both of the player's expectations of what an "Inquisition" should be, and the internal logic of the gameworld - it's possible we could use the rhetorical/legal power of being part of "an Inquisition" without actually having to resort to the methods it used or the causes it supported.

Wow, I was thinking the exact same thing only I couldn't word it properly.  Thanks for writing my thoughts for me.

C'mon guys, stop getting riled up over a name.  Just because "Inquistion" has negative/extremist connotations, doesn't mean DA3's Inquistion will adhere to them.  It might only be a chantry organisation for funding purposes, but really you have complete autonomy to get the job done.

It's not that simple. The RL Inquisition is one of the foulest, most despicable organizations ever formed by man, and that it still creates such strong feelings centuries later should be Warning Flag #1 to Bioware. I, and apparently a lot of people, will never play a willing member of the Inquisition, let alone its leader (c.f. http://en.wikipedia....s_de_Torquemada).

Thedas and the real world are very obviously not the same thing. The historical Inquisitions are not the same thing.

DA3's new Inquisition, again, is not the same thing. It seems to be heavily dependant on player choices for its tone, for starters.

If people can't tell the difference between a fictional universe's history and the real one, I'd question their perspective.