327 réponses à ce sujet

[berelinde]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

esper wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'd encourage people to not jump to too many conclusions about who or what the PC's affiliations will be or were prior to the game.

That is damn hard to do when the name carrys strong both in world and real word associations, surely bioware was aware of that when choosing that name.

Untill we get something concrete we can only guess based on what the name have meant for Thedas and what it means in the real world.

That's fair, and yes we did know it would strike a chord (in some ways bad) with some people because of it.  We had considered not using the title because people may relate it TOO strongly, but ultimately we all agreed it was a great title for the game based on the ideas for the game.  We decided to take the risk and not change out of what we wanted to do just to make sure the name was safe.

Hopefully more details will come sooner rather than later (I have no idea the timeline), to help calm your fears.

It doesn't help that the ideas *from* the game, Codex entries et al, have reinforced strong negative associations.

I know, wait and see. We are. But you will have to accept that it is difficult to remain positive about something that sounds like the exact opposite of what we (esper, Huntress, myself, and any others who share our sensitivities) want from a game. It's kind to come here and say that we're worried about nothing. Doing so without being patronizing or sarcastic is also a welcome courtesy. At the end of the day, seeing is believing, as everybody probably expected.

In explanation, some of us carry real world baggage that makes us sensitive to in-game issues. I don't presume to speak for others, but I avoid using the singular pronoun because I do not want to slight anyone who share these concerns. It isn't the kind of thing we talk about on the forums because this really and truly is not the venue for it, but it does prevent us from enjoying things that others may find perfectly inoffensive. The obvious answer is "Get over it." A person can try for years and never really succeed. Video games are a form of escapism. It's nice to get away from the issues for a while.

Thank you for taking the time to personally address the matter. Your post reassures me that the developers are aware of the issue, and it enables me to let it drop and go back to watchful waiting.

[Wulfram]

esper wrote...

Basically I want my characther to be able to express (and always have beenexpressing) that they think Justina really should jump out from the nearest cliff and die. And it is a bid hard to imagine that a chantry group could justify recruiting that characther. 

Or even a group that claims to be a neutral investigator, really.

[Plaintiff]

Would people be less upset if the title was "Dragon Age: Inquiry", or "Dragon Age: Investigation"?

Both words have a literally identical meaning to "Inquisition", minus the subjective and incidental (albeit powerful) religious connotations.

[AngryFrozenWater]

esper wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Lots of speculation in my post of course.

I think the problem BW is facing is class recognition. In DA2 mages were hunted, but somehow not mage Hawke. Hawke needed to explain he/she was a mage, even though Hawke wore a mage robe, a magic hat, wielded a staff and blasted foes with fire balls. Or more general: The mage was supposed to be a foe in the mage/chantry conflict and the other classes were more neutral. A PC with the templar warrior specialization cannot be truly objective either.

If the inquisition allows the PC to join it and is about a mage/chantry conflict then the PC as a mage will have to solve that problem by a mage specific story branch to be believable. Another solution would be to abandon the mage as a playable class and emphasize the templar warrior specialization as the magic one. The latter will not be popular by mage fans.

In another scenario the PC is investigating the inquisition and/or fighting it. That way a mage specific branch is prevented, and the problem of class recognition is easier to solve, because the PC is considered a foe anyway, no matter what class the PC has.

Given that usually BW opts for the most economic solutions, I think the second scenario is more probable. There is also a lot of resistance among some players who have enough of the mage/chantry conflict. That would make the second one even more appealing. On the other hand the chantry/templar/mage system is a fundamental given in Thedas, so bringing the chantry down won't happen, but bringing the inquisition down or the bad elements within it may improve the mage situation. Help from within, like Leliana (with maybe Casandra as her foe), would fit in that as well.

The problem is not class regonigtion, at least not for me. The problem is that I don't want to play a pro-chantry character who works for the chantry, or who started out before the game working for some obscure elite chantry branch.

Basically I want my characther to be able to express (and always have beenexpressing) that they think Justina really should jump out from the nearest cliff and die. And it is a bid hard to imagine that a chantry group could justify recruiting that characther.

For me it is one of the basic problems. Usually classes are independent of the plot, but in the DA universe the mage class and the templar warrior specialization are connected directly to the plot. And thus one get the really awkward situation that every mage is hunted down, except mage Hawke. Also, mages are seen as the lowest kind of creatures that deserve to be locked up, are hunted down, or can only serve the chantry system. DA2 does not recognize the mage as a class at all and therefor it doesn't make sense, because the mage class and the templar warrior specialization play the same role without any change in the story. Of course it doesn't help that no matter what side you have chosen the end plays out the same with lots of railroading.

In order for your character to express his/her opinion about the chantry the game needs to allow that. I agree with you. What I add is that this point of view *must* be different for mages and templars. For an example: A mage that sides with the chantry betrays its fellow mages by condoning a system that suppresses them, which would cause the mages to oppose that PC. A templar which sides with the mages betrays the chantry, which would cause the templars to oppose that PC. Others merely take a side.

Fighting the inquisition would cause all classes to be opposed by the chantry and result in the most clear situation, where only minor dialogue changes are required to recognize the mage class or warrior templar specialization.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:51 .

[esper]

Plaintiff wrote...

Would people be less upset if the title was "Dragon Age: Inquiry", or "Dragon Age: Investigation"?

Both words have a literally identical meaning to "Inquisition", minus the subjective and incidental (albeit powerful) religious connotations.

Yes. I would be a lot less worried. (Even if I do admit that the name looses the 'rule of cool').

[berelinde]

Plaintiff wrote...

Would people be less upset if the title was "Dragon Age: Inquiry", or "Dragon Age: Investigation"?

Both words have a literally identical meaning to "Inquisition", minus the subjective and incidental (albeit powerful) religious connotations.

Without a doubt! They don't sound as bad-donkey, however. They also aren't steeped in the lore of Thedas, so they are free from historical bias.

Edit: "Upset" is a strong word. "Concerned" is probably more accurate. I don't think anybody is getting butthurt over this, but there are elements that make us uneasy.

Modifié par berelinde, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:53 .

[fchopin]

We have no idea what kind of story the game will have or what relationship our pc will have in the game if we play a Mage/Warrior/Rogue so it is useless to speculate.

When we know more on the story then we can speculate.

[AngryFrozenWater]

fchopin wrote...

We have no idea what kind of story the game will have or what relationship our pc will have in the game if we play a Mage/Warrior/Rogue so it is useless to speculate.

When we know more on the story then we can speculate.

Nah. There's no fun in that. Besides, it makes sense to let BW know how we feel about some scenarios when they still can steer the plot. Waiting until more info becomes available results in being too late to make changes.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:59 .

[esper]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

esper wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Lots of speculation in my post of course.

I think the problem BW is facing is class recognition. In DA2 mages were hunted, but somehow not mage Hawke. Hawke needed to explain he/she was a mage, even though Hawke wore a mage robe, a magic hat, wielded a staff and blasted foes with fire balls. Or more general: The mage was supposed to be a foe in the mage/chantry conflict and the other classes were more neutral. A PC with the templar warrior specialization cannot be truly objective either.

If the inquisition allows the PC to join it and is about a mage/chantry conflict then the PC as a mage will have to solve that problem by a mage specific story branch to be believable. Another solution would be to abandon the mage as a playable class and emphasize the templar warrior specialization as the magic one. The latter will not be popular by mage fans.

In another scenario the PC is investigating the inquisition and/or fighting it. That way a mage specific branch is prevented, and the problem of class recognition is easier to solve, because the PC is considered a foe anyway, no matter what class the PC has.

Given that usually BW opts for the most economic solutions, I think the second scenario is more probable. There is also a lot of resistance among some players who have enough of the mage/chantry conflict. That would make the second one even more appealing. On the other hand the chantry/templar/mage system is a fundamental given in Thedas, so bringing the chantry down won't happen, but bringing the inquisition down or the bad elements within it may improve the mage situation. Help from within, like Leliana (with maybe Casandra as her foe), would fit in that as well.

The problem is not class regonigtion, at least not for me. The problem is that I don't want to play a pro-chantry character who works for the chantry, or who started out before the game working for some obscure elite chantry branch.

Basically I want my characther to be able to express (and always have beenexpressing) that they think Justina really should jump out from the nearest cliff and die. And it is a bid hard to imagine that a chantry group could justify recruiting that characther.

For me it is one of the basic problems. Usually classes are independent of the plot, but in the DA universe the mage class and the templar warrior specialization are connected directly to the plot. And thus one get the really awkward situation that every mage is hunted down, except mage Hawke. Also, mages are seen as the lowest kind of creatures that deserve to be locked up, are hunted down, or can only serve the chantry system. DA2 does not recognize the mage as a class at all and therefor it doesn't make sense, because the mage class and the templar warrior specialization play the same role without any change in the story. Of course it doesn't help that no matter what side you have chosen the end plays out the same with lots of railroading.

In order for your character to express his/her opinion about the chantry the game needs to allow that. I agree with you. What I add is that this point of view *must* be different for mages and templars. For an example: A mage that sides with the chantry betrays its fellow mages by condoning a system that suppresses them, which would cause the mages to oppose that PC. A templar which sides with the mages betrays the chantry, which would cause the templars to oppose that PC. Others merely take a side.

Fighting the inquisition would cause all classes to be opposed by the chantry and result in the most clear situation, where only minor dialogue changes are required to recognize the class.

Well, they have been talking about only allowing one specialization and then have the chosen one matter in the narrative, so I am hoping that class regonation would follow that automatically. (of course there are no gurantee they would do this)

I agree fighting the inquistion would make it easier. After all it is a lot more believable to assume that a pro-chantry group, the inquestion, mistunerstand the pro-chantry protagnonist intentions and thinks them evil than it is to believe they would recruit a characther who openly have little loayalty to the chantry. And if the protagnosit were, say, framed for something which would place us in opposition to the chantry, then it could believeable be made so that the pro-chantry characthers over the course off the game could prove their innocence and (re)join the chantry, while the anti-chantry group could say **** you and stay in opporsition.

[fchopin]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

fchopin wrote...

We have no idea what kind of story the game will have or what relationship our pc will have in the game if we play a Mage/Warrior/Rogue so it is useless to speculate.

When we know more on the story then we can speculate.

Nah. There's no fun in that. Besides, it makes sense to let BW know how we feel about some scenarios when they still can steer the plot. Waiting until more info becomes available results in being too late to make changes.

Ok, if you like fun then let's really start using the imagination and get Flemeth involved as i think she will love getting involved in what appears to be many people dying. I am sure she will be involved somehow or maybe even start the inquisition.  

[AngryFrozenWater]

fchopin wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

fchopin wrote...

We have no idea what kind of story the game will have or what relationship our pc will have in the game if we play a Mage/Warrior/Rogue so it is useless to speculate.

When we know more on the story then we can speculate.

Nah. There's no fun in that. Besides, it makes sense to let BW know how we feel about some scenarios when they still can steer the plot. Waiting until more info becomes available results in being too late to make changes.

Ok, if you like fun then let's really start using the imagination and get Flemeth involved as i think she will love getting involved in what appears to be many people dying. I am sure she will be involved somehow or maybe even start the inquisition.

So far she played a minor role in both titles. I don't think that will change in DA3. I cannot see her connected to the inquisition, other than to oppose it. She may even side with you for a quest or two.

[Xilizhra]

I understand that we might not have to take sides in this war, but I very badly want to do so, and actually win it for my chosen side. I do hope they allow this...

[Darth_Trethon]

Yes OP, I have a great deal of doubts about how a Mage fits into the role and rank of inquisitor, I actually had a thread on this topic myself. At any rate I very much hope this gets implemented right because I cannot really stand playing any other class and if it ends up forced and poorly implemented it will break the game for me. I hope I am not being unreasonable here but there are A LOT of very heavy lore implications at play here that really do need to be addressed in the game.

[Brockololly]

fchopin wrote...

We have no idea what kind of story the game will have or what relationship our pc will have in the game if we play a Mage/Warrior/Rogue so it is useless to speculate.

When we know more on the story then we can speculate.

Given that its pretty clear the surveys were legit, we know a decent amount of the setup for DA3:

"A portal between the worlds unleashes hords of demons in the land, civil wars rip apart nations and the corruption is limitless. Someone is behind the shadows, drawing the threads which destroy the world. Time has come for the Inquisition.

Take the Inquisitor's cloak and lead the only force able of bringing light into the darkness. Choose the direct method and gather your armies, send spies into the shadows or engage in a political war, make friends and use your connections indirectly: it is up to you how you lead the inquisition. But you'll have to take lead of it from the beginning. Make your player a rogue, warrior or mage and set up your crew from up to ten complex companions to lead them against those who attack you by systematically spying on, revealing and destroying them." 

It sounds like the basic premise of Origins- bad supernatural stuff is happening which threatens everyone forcing the Inquisitor to investigate the root cause and stop the supernatural threat (probably related to Morrigan/Flemeth/dragons/OGB/Eluvians). But before you can defeat supernatural big bad, you have to go around across Thedas to resolve other people's problems- mage/templar, Orlesian civil war, tevinter/qunari and so forth.

[Wulfram]

I'm sceptical that any story can adequately accomodate fervent Mage Freedom rebels, Divine loyalists and Zealous Templars as protagonists, unless they more or less toss out the politics and go back to "aargh, monsters are invading!" like in DA:O.

[Xilizhra]

Wulfram wrote...

I'm sceptical that any story can adequately accomodate fervent Mage Freedom rebels, Divine loyalists and Zealous Templars as protagonists, unless they more or less toss out the politics and go back to "aargh, monsters are invading!" like in DA:O.

This is why I recommended not making the last one an option.

[ElitePinecone]

esper wrote...
My fear is that since this is a story point and not a game mechanism pointm, will we even get details about this before preordring/buying or will we have to wait all the way to the demo or the whole game is out?

The small blurb included in a marketing survey recently (the type that would, perhaps, be used as a general plot overview for retailers or given to gaming media) contained a couple of things that very obviously steer the story away from an inquisition based on Chantry power and targeted towards mages. 

We don't know when Bioware will formally announce more information about the game, but it's safe to say that even reading a very broad plot outline is enough to realise it's not going to be about a zealot organisation hunting mages, unless the player explicitly wants it to be that - and, I suppose, depending on the level of narrative freedom.

Mages/Templars seem to be part of the story, but that conflict isn't necessarily the main focus of the Inquisition. 

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
snip

If I'm reading this right, your concerns are based on the idea that a mage PC is probably incompatible with an Inquisition backed by the Chantry, which generally frowns upon any mages in positions of power or leadership. 

This is true, but DA3's inquisition (based on the leaked marketing survey) is, almost certainly, not Chantry-based. It's explicitly a new organisation, for reasons that become pretty clear in the plot summary of the game.  

[Fast Jimmy]

I would be interested in seeing an 'Inquisition' faction that is pro-Chantry (with varying shades of gray) and a 'Rebellion' faction that is pro-Mage (or at least anti-Chantry, again with shades of Gray) and have the PC work with both and then choose a side.

Or they will do the more logical thing and make the Inquisition something completely separate from the Chantry/Templars.

[AngryFrozenWater]

ElitePinecone wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

snip

If I'm reading this right, your concerns are based on the idea that a mage PC is probably incompatible with an Inquisition backed by the Chantry, which generally frowns upon any mages in positions of power or leadership. 

This is true, but DA3's inquisition (based on the leaked marketing survey) is, almost certainly, not Chantry-based. It's explicitly a new organisation, for reasons that become pretty clear in the plot summary of the game.

You are correct. Let's hope that handles the mage as PC and templar/warrior as PC problem.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 20 septembre 2012 - 02:40 .

[ElitePinecone]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

snip

If I'm reading this right, your concerns are based on the idea that a mage PC is probably incompatible with an Inquisition backed by the Chantry, which generally frowns upon any mages in positions of power or leadership. 

This is true, but DA3's inquisition (based on the leaked marketing survey) is, almost certainly, not Chantry-based. It's explicitly a new organisation, for reasons that become pretty clear in the plot summary of the game.

You are correct. Let's hope that handles the mage as PC and templar/warrior as PC problem.

I'm really interested by this as well, we don't know anything much about the PC yet and seeing how class differences work will be nice.

I have a (speculative) hunch that based on what seem to be the circumstances of the start of the game, we might have more choice of backgrounds for our character in DA3. The role (as in, the actual position they occupy) of the player character is pretty important, so I think they'll have a part in what occurs in the formation of the Inquisition, perhaps to the extent that being a mage is less relevant than what they've accomplished just prior to the Inquisition starting. 

Confronting a crisis like the plot outline for DA3 represents sorta renders the Templar/Mage issue less significant, even if the Chantry were up to hunting down mages (and after the Seeker/Templar secessions, it doesn't look like it even before DA3 starts). 

[Xilizhra]

Confronting a crisis like the plot outline for DA3 represents sorta renders the Templar/Mage issue less significant, even if the Chantry were up to hunting down mages (and after the Seeker/Templar secessions, it doesn't look like it even before DA3 starts).

Ugh. This is something I don't want, I admit. I want this conflict to be happening front and center, and I want the reasons for it to be good ones, not just some random other entity trying to stir up "chaos."

[fchopin]

Brockololly wrote...

"A portal between the worlds unleashes hords of demons in the land, civil wars rip apart nations and the corruption is limitless. Someone is behind the shadows, drawing the threads which destroy the world. Time has come for the Inquisition.

So basically it is similar to the witcher from what i can see.

[ElitePinecone]

Judging from the (possibly hyperbolic) marketing description, the conflict is certainly front and centre. Perhaps at the most front, and the most centre, if we're talking about power and influence in Thedas.

I agree that the "unseen force manipulating everything" bit needs to be handled well, it'd be... odd if this were just another Big Bad-type person/creature of whom we'd previously heard nothing. I assume we'll find out who is behind it all, and for what purpose, at some point in DA3. Hopefully?

I really like, though, that the high-level "chaos" plot, even apart from its own story, seems to be used as a vehicle to explore a bunch of other conflicts in Thedas - Orlesian civil wars, Ferelden tensions, the Mage/Templar shenanigans, inter-Chantry politics, even possibly Tevinter magisters, city elves and Qunari (looking at companion arcs). Throw in a bunch of ways to solve each issue (diplomacy, politics!) and I'm really liking the story potential here.

The main "ahhh no, bad things!" plot isn't solvable without dealing with the others - the ones that go to more human conflicts instead of dealing with the supernatural - and I really like where that could go. It's very Origins-esque, but I'm hoping for even more complexity and nuance in the narrative options.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

It means the Blood Mages and their evil knowledge will be annihilated, plus few innocent mages by mistake during that process; Which is historically justifiable.

Modifié par Legatus Arianus, 20 septembre 2012 - 03:47 .

[levi.porphyrogenitus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

esper wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'd encourage people to not jump to too many conclusions about who or what the PC's affiliations will be or were prior to the game.

That is damn hard to do when the name carrys strong both in world and real word associations, surely bioware was aware of that when choosing that name.

Untill we get something concrete we can only guess based on what the name have meant for Thedas and what it means in the real world.

That's fair, and yes we did know it would strike a chord (in some ways bad) with some people because of it.  We had considered not using the title because people may relate it TOO strongly, but ultimately we all agreed it was a great title for the game based on the ideas for the game.  We decided to take the risk and not change out of what we wanted to do just to make sure the name was safe.

Hopefully more details will come sooner rather than later (I have no idea the timeline), to help calm your fears.

Just thought I'd say I love the title, and it doesn't suggest to me anything except that the Inquisition will be involved centrally to the plot (could be a villain, could be the PC's boss, could be a major organization that the PC could help/hinder/try to ignore, whatever).