327 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Olmert wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So, Olmert: why would it be negative if the Chantry wasn't involved with the Inquisition?

Because I personally believe that an "Inquisition", historically (both Earth and Thedas) and in other lore like WH40K, has been organized as an arm of a religion.  It's implicit in the baggage that most here agree attaches to the name.  I think it would be cowardly of BW to run from the implications of this term after they chose it knowing, and counting upon, what those implications are.

I disagree. I actually think clashing with the implications of such would be quite interesting, even possibly naming that as a direct reaction against the Inquisition of the past; basically, taking the name and idea, but this time doing it properly by not being so monomaniacal. Also, in Thedas' own history, the Inquisition has never been tied to a religious body.

[Olmerto]

Calians wrote...

He/she doesn't have to nessecary be the leader, he/she could be a member of it then chosen to do some type of investigation or inquiry about a matter.

Haha, well since the player will be the one calling the shots in the game like the warden did with the grey wardens, I think he'll be the de facto leader of this so-called inquisition effort.

[Olmerto]

Xilizhra wrote...

Olmert wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So, Olmert: why would it be negative if the Chantry wasn't involved with the Inquisition?

Because I personally believe that an "Inquisition", historically (both Earth and Thedas) and in other lore like WH40K, has been organized as an arm of a religion.  It's implicit in the baggage that most here agree attaches to the name.  I think it would be cowardly of BW to run from the implications of this term after they chose it knowing, and counting upon, what those implications are.

I disagree. I actually think clashing with the implications of such would be quite interesting, even possibly naming that as a direct reaction against the Inquisition of the past; basically, taking the name and idea, but this time doing it properly by not being so monomaniacal. Also, in Thedas' own history, the Inquisition has never been tied to a religious body.

I'd have to revisit the lore to determine that, but I think you'd still find that the impetus behind the initial inquisition was based on Andrasteism and that religious movement, regardless of its technical organization.

[Calians]

Olmert wrote...

Calians wrote...

He/she doesn't have to nessecary be the leader, he/she could be a member of it then chosen to do some type of investigation or inquiry about a matter.

Haha, well since the player will be the one calling the shots in the game like the warden did with the grey wardens, I think he'll be the de facto leader of this so-called inquisition effort.

Could be but we'll see. I'm not going to put my money where my mouth is because anything is possible lol..

[AngryFrozenWater]

Olmert: Why do you keep calling people insane, irrational and cowards (to name a few terms I have encountered in your posts)? Can't you make your points without insulting people? These terms do not give weight to your posts. In fact it does the opposite thing, because most people know that it's a trick in an attempt to invalidate an argument by attaching a negative trait to it.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 20 septembre 2012 - 05:44 .

[Olmerto]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Olmert: Why do you keep calling people insane, irrational and cowards (to name a few terms I have encountered in your posts)? Can't you make your points without insulting people? These terms do not give weight to your posts. In fact it does the opposite thing, because most people know that it's a trick in an attempt to invalidate an argument by attaching a negative trait to it.

Insane: One cannot read "Asunder" and conclude that Bioware has a desire to frame an anti-mage narrative.  You would have to read that book, then conclude things nowhere suggested in that book, to accuse Bioware of wanting to make mage fans suffer.  It suggests intense insecurity and need for control to threaten a boycott and express a desire for a veto over Bioware's creative autonomy.  It literally sickens me to read this garbage.

Irrational: Turning speculation into concrete facts and threatening boycott *is* irrational.

Cowards: I didn't suggest anyone was a coward, I merely stated my belief that running from their use of the highly-charged term "Inquisition" would be rather cowardly of Bioware.  Conversely, "owning" their use of the term "Inquisition" would be courageous.  Agree or disagree, I don't care.

To my way of thinking, people attempting to usurp Bioware's control over the plot and narrative of Dragon Age are blatently insulting Bioware's writers, and it's embarrassing to read this stuff knowing that.  If folks want to argue about the game mechanics or the graphics, that's fine.  But you cannot aspire to influence the substance of the story Bioware writes without deeply insulting them as writers.  What do you think an author of a novel would say if his readers attempted to control the direction of his writing?  What the proponents of this thread are attempting is shameful, and someone needs to point that out on Bioware's behalf.

[AngryFrozenWater]

I don't care what you way of thinking is. Try to do without insults and use actual arguments. It's not that hard, Olmert.

[R2s Muse]

Olmert wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Olmert wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So, Olmert: why would it be negative if the Chantry wasn't involved with the Inquisition?

Because I personally believe that an "Inquisition", historically (both Earth and Thedas) and in other lore like WH40K, has been organized as an arm of a religion.  It's implicit in the baggage that most here agree attaches to the name.  I think it would be cowardly of BW to run from the implications of this term after they chose it knowing, and counting upon, what those implications are.

I disagree. I actually think clashing with the implications of such would be quite interesting, even possibly naming that as a direct reaction against the Inquisition of the past; basically, taking the name and idea, but this time doing it properly by not being so monomaniacal. Also, in Thedas' own history, the Inquisition has never been tied to a religious body.

I'd have to revisit the lore to determine that, but I think you'd still find that the impetus behind the initial inquisition was based on Andrasteism and that religious movement, regardless of its technical organization.

The worship of Andraste was in its infancy at the time, but from all indications, the original Inquisition seems more focused on bad magic, not religiosity. From David Gaider: 

"As a matter of fact the Templars were once all part of a group called
the Inquisition. There was an Inquisition in Thedas. It existed around
the time that the Chantry started to come to be. This was a time after
the First Blight, after Andraste's March, when there was chaos
everywhere, the Imperium had broken apart, you had the Old God cults, so
a lot of blood magic. There was a lot of chaos, you had the cults of
Andraste...and the Inquisition sort of arose as a group of people who
said "Enough is enough, somebody has to do something about this magic
that is tearing apart the world." And when the Chantry came to be they
went to the Inquisition and said "Hey, we're of the same mind on this,
why don't we pull together" and that's when the Inquisition turned into
the Seekers and the Templar Order. They kind of merged. It'd be
interesting to see if the Inquisition ever rose up again."

Nevertheless, it seems they did share a common faith.

from Bioware blog:

"Most people don’t remember the Templar Order as it once was. In the days
when the Chantry was still young, templars were known as the
“Inquisition” and combed the land in search of all dangers to
humanity—whether they came in the form of blood mages, abominations,
cultists or heretics. It was a dark and terrifying time in the history
of Thedas, and one that only ended when the Chantry convinced the
Inquisition to unite under the banner of their common faith. The name of
their order changed, and their purpose because[sic] that of guardian and
warden rather than hunter."

Modifié par R2s Muse, 20 septembre 2012 - 06:13 .

[Olmerto]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I don't care what you way of thinking is. Try to do without insults and use actual arguments. It's not that hard, Olmert.

I will try not to use derogatory terms in future posts.

[upsettingshorts]

Every human in Thedas "shares a common faith."

As BioWare has said on numerous occasions, while there may be the rare outlier atheist, and a handful of agnostic-Andrastians, almost everyone believes in the existence of the Maker, if not precisely all of the Chantry's teachings about him.  Tevinter believes in the same God the same way the Orthodox and Catholic Christians do.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 septembre 2012 - 06:28 .

[Masha Potato]

there are also qunari converts

[Wulfram]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Every human in Thedas "shares a common faith."

As BioWare has said on numerous occasions, while there may be the rare outlier atheist, and a handful of agnostic Andrastians, almost everyone believes in the existence of the Maker, if not precisely all of the Chantry's teachings about him.

There's the Chasind.  And, covertly, the Rivaini it seems.  And any Qunari converts hanging around.

[upsettingshorts]

 

Masha Potato wrote...

there are also qunari converts

  

Wulfram wrote...

There's the Chasind.  And, covertly, the Rivaini it seems.  And any Qunari converts hanging around.

Fair point.

Suffice to say that the Inquisition and Chantry "sharing a common faith" is hardly the kind of evidence people are starting to make a habit of implying.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 septembre 2012 - 06:35 .

[Olmerto]

R2s Muse wrote...

Olmert wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Olmert wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So, Olmert: why would it be negative if the Chantry wasn't involved with the Inquisition?

Because I personally believe that an "Inquisition", historically (both Earth and Thedas) and in other lore like WH40K, has been organized as an arm of a religion.  It's implicit in the baggage that most here agree attaches to the name.  I think it would be cowardly of BW to run from the implications of this term after they chose it knowing, and counting upon, what those implications are.

I disagree. I actually think clashing with the implications of such would be quite interesting, even possibly naming that as a direct reaction against the Inquisition of the past; basically, taking the name and idea, but this time doing it properly by not being so monomaniacal. Also, in Thedas' own history, the Inquisition has never been tied to a religious body.

I'd have to revisit the lore to determine that, but I think you'd still find that the impetus behind the initial inquisition was based on Andrasteism and that religious movement, regardless of its technical organization.

The worship of Andraste was in its infancy at the time, but from all indications, the original Inquisition seems more focused on bad magic, not religiosity. From David Gaider: 

"As a matter of fact the Templars were once all part of a group called
the Inquisition. There was an Inquisition in Thedas. It existed around
the time that the Chantry started to come to be. This was a time after
the First Blight, after Andraste's March, when there was chaos
everywhere, the Imperium had broken apart, you had the Old God cults, so
a lot of blood magic. There was a lot of chaos, you had the cults of
Andraste...and the Inquisition sort of arose as a group of people who
said "Enough is enough, somebody has to do something about this magic
that is tearing apart the world." And when the Chantry came to be they
went to the Inquisition and said "Hey, we're of the same mind on this,
why don't we pull together" and that's when the Inquisition turned into
the Seekers and the Templar Order. They kind of merged. It'd be
interesting to see if the Inquisition ever rose up again."

Nevertheless, it seems they did share a common faith.

from Bioware blog:

"Most people don’t remember the Templar Order as it once was. In the days
when the Chantry was still young, templars were known as the
“Inquisition” and combed the land in search of all dangers to
humanity—whether they came in the form of blood mages, abominations,
cultists or heretics. It was a dark and terrifying time in the history
of Thedas, and one that only ended when the Chantry convinced the
Inquisition to unite under the banner of their common faith. The name of
their order changed, and their purpose because[sic] that of guardian and
warden rather than hunter."

Yeah, I read some of that stuff just a minute ago, and I think that the passages about "common faith", being "of the same mind", and searching for "heretics" (you need religion to have heresy), suggest the religious underpinnings of the Inquisition.  Of course, the fact that they were in search of ALL dangers to humanity suggests a broader purpose as well.

I'm not saying, really, that BW can't write a story where the Inquisition is just about finding dangers to humanity.  That could well be.  I'm contending that people are off-base thinking that it's "likely" that the Chantry isn't involved.  To the Chantry, as the above lore indicates, the Inquisition was doing the same thing as they wanted so they proposed a merger.  Consequently, the Chantry would, IMO, be the most likely entity -- having lost its military arm -- to resuggest the formation of an Inquisition.  The flavor of the term Inquisition even suggests religious implications, as Bioware is well aware.

Modifié par Olmert, 20 septembre 2012 - 06:43 .

[Eidolion]

So, is it just me, or has anyone else seen that in Dragon Age 2, Cullen isn't a Anti-Mage Zealot like he originally was. Even Cassandra after Dragon Age 2, and Dawn of the Seeker sees Mages as useful, but not something to be entirely cut out like some people in the Chantry. They also appear to have some importance in the story, maybe part of the Organization, so... maybe the group isn't meant to hunt down these evil mage heretics, and is instead trying to restore a bit of order to the chaos, by restoring circles or something, while trying to investigate this Civil War?

So, why can't it be assumed that the Inquisitors are actually a group designed to finding out the truth behind this Civil War? At the same time your character can believe that mages need to be exterminated, brought back to the circle, or allowed free (Templar Zealot, Neutral, Mage Zealot) and the entire game focuses on the Civil war, with side branches about the Templar VS Mages.

Again, the game appears to be more developed around the Orlaisian Civil War, not so much Templars VS Mages. While it'll obviously come up, and still be important, the main focus so far seems to be the Civil War...

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Every human in Thedas "shares a common faith."

As BioWare has said on numerous occasions, while there may be the rare outlier atheist, and a handful of agnostic-Andrastians, almost everyone believes in the existence of the Maker, if not precisely all of the Chantry's teachings about him.  Tevinter believes in the same God the same way the Orthodox and Catholic Christians do.

This could be the beginning of a religious schism.  That would be interesting.

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Every human in Thedas "shares a common faith."

As BioWare has said on numerous occasions, while there may be the rare outlier atheist, and a handful of agnostic-Andrastians, almost everyone believes in the existence of the Maker, if not precisely all of the Chantry's teachings about him.  Tevinter believes in the same God the same way the Orthodox and Catholic Christians do.

This could be the beginning of a religious schism.  That would be interesting.

Indeed.

[esper]

brushyourteeth wrote...

General User wrote...

The Chantry never wanted to "hunt down" the rebel mages. The Divine supports compromise and reform. That's why the Templars left the Chantry in the first place.

And since their leaving was an act of willful defiance, the Templars are just as much in abeyance of Chantry law as the rebel mages. An "inquisition" could be aimed at the defiant Templars as well as radical mages.

I'm surprised how many people seem to miss those points.  They aren't exactly hidden or complicated.

Well said. Most forumites seem to have not read Asunder, however. Or willfully misunderstood it. Or accidentally misunderstood Justinia due to their natural anti-Chantry bias. Which is understandable, but brings us no closer to understanding the truth of the matter or the direction that this conflict will be taking us.

And then there are fans who insist that what happens in the books shouldn't matter in-game. Which... at this point, is kind of a silly request. "Asunder" is essentially a very long codex entry.

It is you have a completely missing at the very least my point. It has nothing to do with how you stand with the templars/mages.

I think the chantry is a vile organisation and I don't want to support it or give it any strenght back. Period!

Now I am aware that the game might force me into a truce with the chantry for some greater good or to miniamize damage. But there is a hell of a different into being forced into playing a character who is railroaded into saying: all right I don't kill you now for some reason, but we are still not friends, than a charcther who was railroaded to at any point in their life thinking that the chantry was an organisation worth joining.

So it doesn't matter if the inqustion hunts renegade templars as well. The point is not siding with the chantry. It doesn't matter who is hunted, it is who we are hunting for that may be the problem.

[brushyourteeth]

esper wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

General User wrote...

The Chantry never wanted to "hunt down" the rebel mages. The Divine supports compromise and reform. That's why the Templars left the Chantry in the first place.

And since their leaving was an act of willful defiance, the Templars are just as much in abeyance of Chantry law as the rebel mages. An "inquisition" could be aimed at the defiant Templars as well as radical mages.

I'm surprised how many people seem to miss those points.  They aren't exactly hidden or complicated.

Well said. Most forumites seem to have not read Asunder, however. Or willfully misunderstood it. Or accidentally misunderstood Justinia due to their natural anti-Chantry bias. Which is understandable, but brings us no closer to understanding the truth of the matter or the direction that this conflict will be taking us.

And then there are fans who insist that what happens in the books shouldn't matter in-game. Which... at this point, is kind of a silly request. "Asunder" is essentially a very long codex entry.

It is you have a completely missing at the very least my point. It has nothing to do with how you stand with the templars/mages.

I think the chantry is a vile organisation and I don't want to support it or give it any strenght back. Period!

Now I am aware that the game might force me into a truce with the chantry for some greater good or to miniamize damage. But there is a hell of a different into being forced into playing a character who is railroaded into saying: all right I don't kill you now for some reason, but we are still not friends, than a charcther who was railroaded to at any point in their life thinking that the chantry was an organisation worth joining.

So it doesn't matter if the inqustion hunts renegade templars as well. The point is not siding with the chantry. It doesn't matter who is hunted, it is who we are hunting for that may be the problem.

I think I understand what you're saying, and I definitely respect your preference as a gamer. Though I'm not sure what that actually had to do with my post. 

And there's a very strong chance that you just won't get your wish. Most people we meet in Thedas worship Andraste. You're inevitably going to be in a situation where you can't be a jerk to every single one of them.

[berelinde]

Most people != all people

The protagonist is a unique individual. Why can't s/he buck the trend?

This is a rhetorical question.

[The Elder King]

brushyourteeth wrote...


I think I understand what you're saying, and I definitely respect your preference as a gamer. Though I'm not sure what that actually had to do with my post. 

And there's a very strong chance that you just won't get your wish. Most people we meet in Thedas worship Andraste. You're inevitably going to be in a situation where you can't be a jerk to every single one of them.

Chantry =/=Andraste. I don't know esper's opinion about Andraste (which could be the same she has for the Chantry) being an Andrastian doesn't mean being pro-Chantry. I believe Anders is Andrastian, for example.

Modifié par hhh89, 20 septembre 2012 - 09:38 .

[IanPolaris]

berelinde wrote...

Most people != all people

The protagonist is a unique individual. Why can't s/he buck the trend?

This is a rhetorical question.

In DAO you could.  If you were a human noble, you could explicitly be an Athiest.  Morrigan was also an explicit athiest.

-Polaris

[The Elder King]

IanPolaris wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Most people != all people

The protagonist is a unique individual. Why can't s/he buck the trend?

This is a rhetorical question.

In DAO you could.  If you were a human noble, you could explicitly be an Athiest.  Morrigan was also an explicit athiest.

-Polaris

Agreed. I don't like the fact that it wasn't possible in DA2. It's not much the fact that I need to play as an atheist, but more the fact that I want the option.
I don't remember if it was possible for a dalish or dwarf, though. I don't remember a dialogue were they could said to don't agree to their race's faith.

Modifié par hhh89, 20 septembre 2012 - 09:44 .

[LobselVith8]

esper wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Well said. Most forumites seem to have not read Asunder, however. Or willfully misunderstood it. Or accidentally misunderstood Justinia due to their natural anti-Chantry bias. Which is understandable, but brings us no closer to understanding the truth of the matter or the direction that this conflict will be taking us.

And then there are fans who insist that what happens in the books shouldn't matter in-game. Which... at this point, is kind of a silly request. "Asunder" is essentially a very long codex entry.

It is you have a completely missing at the very least my point. It has nothing to do with how you stand with the templars/mages.

I think the chantry is a vile organisation and I don't want to support it or give it any strenght back. Period!

Now I am aware that the game might force me into a truce with the chantry for some greater good or to minimize damage. But there is a hell of a different into being forced into playing a character who is railroaded into saying: all right I don't kill you now for some reason, but we are still not friends, than a character who was railroaded to at any point in their life thinking that the chantry was an organisation worth joining.

So it doesn't matter if the inqustion hunts renegade templars as well. The point is not siding with the chantry. It doesn't matter who is hunted, it is who we are hunting for that may be the problem.

I find the Chantry of Andraste to be a repugnant organization. We see how mages like Keili and Bethany have been adversely affected by the religious teachings of the Chantry. Alistair seemed to have disdain for how the Chantry treated its templars. I still recall Wynne making it clear in the City of Amaranthine that she didn't advocate for the Circles of Magi to break free from the Chantry because the Chantry would rather kill all the mages than see them free.

[brushyourteeth]

hhh89 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...


I think I understand what you're saying, and I definitely respect your preference as a gamer. Though I'm not sure what that actually had to do with my post. 

And there's a very strong chance that you just won't get your wish. Most people we meet in Thedas worship Andraste. You're inevitably going to be in a situation where you can't be a jerk to every single one of them.

Chantry =/=Andraste. I don't know esper's opinion about Andraste (which could be the same she has for the Chantry) being an Andrastian doesn't mean being pro-Chantry. I believe Anders is Andrastian, for example.

I'd be willing to be that there are a lot of mages who like what Andraste stood for but are fed up with the post-Andraste Chantry's teachings on magic and the modern treatment of mages. Anders, I think, is really one of them.

You can see as time goes on, particularly in the Legacy DLC, how he really wants the Chantry's version of the whole Black City debacle to be incorrect so that his radical actions against them can feel validated. As if proving they're wrong on one point will support mage freedom. He seems genuinely broken to hear that they may have been right about the creation of the darkspawn.

So far, though, the Andrastian religion is pretty much expressed through just the Chantry. People in Thedas don't seem to recognize any separation of the two like we would today with our religions ("I love [insert deity] but I don't go to [insert religious meeting-place]"). Anders might feel unwelcomed by and alienated from the Chantry while he still believes in Andraste, but I don't think he's taken those feelings all the way to the conclusion of loving one but not needing the other. I think instead he just feels like a bad Andrastian, which is sad.

Now, if I a new form of Andraste worship arose that was closer to the words of the prophetess herself, even while Justinia was trying to bring the Chantry back to beliefs based on the Chant and not on superstition or prejudice.... that could get pretty interesting. Something like that will probably have to spring up among the former Circle mages, though we may never actually get to see that in-game.