176 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

Stiler wrote...

As long as there is a version (at launch, not months/year later, what's the point then? Most items are for newer players so it's pointless then) that we can buy with everything included it's fine.

I don't understand why you see that as pointless, unless you have predetermined that you will only play the game once (or even twice). And if that's the case, why would you care about such items in the first place? If they release a "DLC goodie pack" or whatever a few months after release, every new character you create from that point on would be able to use these items. It's not like it's an MMO where you have a persistent character that will out level things like that and never have any use for them.

Most items are not for "newer players," they are for newer characters, there's a difference. Every mage I make uses the Staff of Parthalan for the entire Act 1 in DA2. Signing up for that newsletter (to get the staff) was one of the best things ever.

[crazyrabbits]

nightscrawl wrote...

crazyrabbits wrote...

Uh-huh. You keep telling yourself that, if it helps you sleep better at night.

Comments like this DO NOT encourage devs to post here.

Bring forth examples from ME if you really feel the need, but there's no need to be an ass about it. Also, you can cite all the examples you want until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't prove anything since you don't work for Bioware, and therefore don't know what goes on in the company. Just because (you think) the ME team did something one way doesn't mean the DA team are equallly guilty of doing the same thing.

Calling someone a liar doesn't make them one.

I've acted civil for a long time to people like Mr. Woo and Mr. Priestly plenty of times. I've seen their behaviour, and it's become unjustifiable to me. Besides, I've already said before that I give the DA team more confidence than anything or anyone related to ME.

At least they apologized for their mistakes before, but judging by these comments, they're falling into the same corporate spin yet again.

Besides, history has already justified their actions. They've come out with plenty of DLC that is now unattainable, DLC hidden behind unlock keys and DLC that skirts (if not outright ignores) consumer ethics and the nature of what it means to have a "complete game". No amount of spin from fanboys like you can change that fact.

Modifié par crazyrabbits, 19 septembre 2012 - 03:15 .

[crazyrabbits]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

I can't believe I'm about to take the opposing stance on this one, but Shale wasn't really essential in any shape to the story. She was well-written and integrated heavily into the story, sure, but she wasn't essential to the Warden and his fight against the darkspawn.

By that logic, none of the NPC's in Baldur's Gate II (besides Imoen) had anything whatsoever to do with the plot. You don't need Aerie, Keldorn, Viconia or Cernd to finish the game. You can play through entirely solo - it's difficult, yes, but you can do so without recruiting more than two people throughout the entire game. You could walk out of Irenicus' dungeon without ever picking up Minsc, Jaheira or Yoshimo, and the main story wouldn't be any less for it (although you'd be missing out on awesome characters).

None of Bioware's previous games had entire companions cut because of executive mandates or time issues - what you got on the disc was what was in the game (with a handful of cut quests that didn't jive). KOTOR, Jade Empire, Neverwinter Nights and BG/BG2 never had characters chopped out just to make a buck.

If BW made another BG game today, you can bet they'd cut out at least one or two companions to sell piecemeal as DLC. Can you imagine a character like Minsc or Yoshimo being sold as Day-1 DLC?

Modifié par crazyrabbits, 19 septembre 2012 - 03:18 .

[Kail Ashton]

i 50% agree with this, Collector edition dlc is bullcrap and i'll be pissed if bioware is folish enough to try that crap again

pre-order stuff though i'm fine with,, i demand freebies for agreeing to buy your questionible goods

[SnakeStrike8]

So what do you mates think of the day-1 DLC scheme detailed below?

Instead of giving CE buyers or pre-order people cut chracters or weapons or whatnot, what if they were instead given discounts on future DLC? All DA 3 CE buyers get 50% off on future DLC, in addition to artbooks or action figures or whatever else, and all regular pre-order chaps get 45% off on future DLC that will inevitably come for DA 3, facilitated with a code key that comes with the box that affords the discount.
How would that sound? There is still some incentive for preordering in this sort of system (savings on future DLC) while other players who are not willing to lay money down for an unknown product will not feel shafted at not getting Shale or Sebastian. When the Shale or Sebastian DLC is finally released, anyone who was willing to blindly trust Bioware's product gets their faith rewarded by receiving cheaper DLC.

[Wentletrap]

In case anyone hasn't seen it, this video explains the case for Day 1 DLC pretty well.

http://penny-arcade....ss-effect-3-dlc

I can understand why it exists. It doesn't bother me - I'll simply hold out until other players here say a DLC is worth buying.

Modifié par Wentletrap, 19 septembre 2012 - 03:37 .

[Nerdage]

Content bonuses for buying the game new; great, if it helps claw some money back from 2nd hand sales then more power to them.

For pre-ordering; seems like a bit of a con considering how many people will be skeptical of pre-ordering this time around, if there were ever a time to be trying to woo customers with understanding it's surely now. If there has to be something make it cosmetic.

For collector's ed; only if it's up for everyone else to download day 1, maybe later it it's cosmetic.

Retailer-specific bonuses are just awful. Sorry.

[Uzzy]

Hate preorder DLC, hate retailer exclusive DLC, hate Day 1 DLC.

Just give me the goddamn game in exchange for my £40. Simple.

Modifié par Uzzy, 19 septembre 2012 - 04:14 .

[LinksOcarina]

crazyrabbits wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

I can't believe I'm about to take the opposing stance on this one, but Shale wasn't really essential in any shape to the story. She was well-written and integrated heavily into the story, sure, but she wasn't essential to the Warden and his fight against the darkspawn.

By that logic, none of the NPC's in Baldur's Gate II (besides Imoen) had anything whatsoever to do with the plot. You don't need Aerie, Keldorn, Viconia or Cernd to finish the game. You can play through entirely solo - it's difficult, yes, but you can do so without recruiting more than two people throughout the entire game. You could walk out of Irenicus' dungeon without ever picking up Minsc, Jaheira or Yoshimo, and the main story wouldn't be any less for it (although you'd be missing out on awesome characters).

None of Bioware's previous games had entire companions cut because of executive mandates or time issues - what you got on the disc was what was in the game (with a handful of cut quests that didn't jive). KOTOR, Jade Empire, Neverwinter Nights and BG/BG2 never had characters chopped out just to make a buck.

If BW made another BG game today, you can bet they'd cut out at least one or two companions to sell piecemeal as DLC. Can you imagine a character like Minsc or Yoshimo being sold as Day-1 DLC?

Jade Empire had a new character avatar and weapon style thrown into the collectors edition of that game, and I think a new summon enemy if I recall correctly. 

That said, I get your point, but I think you are misreading the intentions of what these characters were.  It's on record that Shale was going to be cut period before they had an extension, and that saved her pebbly butt from getting axed from the game. Sebastian always felt like he was a complete outsider that was integrated as DLC, meaning he was made to be DLC from the ground up. As for Mass Effect, same deal goes for them I feel, although I think Kasumi was just incomplete at the time. 

So your comparson is a false one, because that is intentionally taking out people to sell them as DLC, something BioWare doesn't do. The question here is wether or not they should have Day one stuff. I say yeah, everyone does. Look at Borderlands 2, they have a character class that is available for pre-order now. It wasn't finished on time for the game's release, but the class will be available in about 30 days for everyone who bought a new copy.

I say, they follow the model put forth with Shale and Zaeed. I say the character should come free to new copies, and a payment of 6 bucks or 10 bucks or whatever, for those who buy it used. I don't mind a signature edition throwing that in for free as well, but if a signature edition does exist, it needs to have something extra to sweeten that deal. Could be a choctky like a cloth map or a soundtrack, hell a making of DVD is nice too. Could also be  in-game weapons that are also available for download for like a buck.

Basically, if it is all available at some point for download, this should be no problem. It's not cut content then, its extra content. As for characters, keep doing it but make sure its free, or at least, free for first time buyers. A lot of people will be bitter about that yeah, but a lot of people are assume the worst in everything so you can't win there regardless. Also, some retailers will discourage anything free (when I was working at Gamestop we were told not to sell Mass Effect 2 new as much as possible because of the free DLC cut into our business, as stupid as that sounds.) but hey, work with them but make your money too.


By the way, one tidbit for everyone. The reason for multiple DLC spread across several retailers is because the retailers usually ask for it to make them more unique, and to compete with each other. Why that DLC never is released is beyond me to be honest, it should be. But usually that is the retailers idea, not the developers, in my understanding of how it works.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 19 septembre 2012 - 04:09 .

[crazyrabbits]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Jade Empire had a new character avatar and weapon style thrown into the collectors edition of that game, and I think a new summon enemy if I recall correctly.

That's fine. Nothing wrong a few more customization options or pre-order bonuses for early adopters. I don't mind that stuff at all. It's when entire chunks of game code get sold off piecemeal, when they were originally intended to be in the game, that I have a problem.

That said, I get your point, but I think you are misreading the intentions of what these characters were.  It's on record that Shale was going to be cut period before they had an extension, and that saved her pebbly butt from getting axed from the game. Sebastian always felt like he was a complete outsider that was integrated as DLC, meaning he was made to be DLC from the ground up. As for Mass Effect, same deal goes for them I feel, although I think Kasumi was just incomplete at the time.

On record? Besides a couple interviews I've seen from BW employees (who, to be honest, I don't take at their word), I haven't seen a cogent defense for cutting out a character that works well on paper and in design. If they wanted to unceremoniously cut her from the game, that should have been done in early production, not at the very end when they "conveniently" get an extension to put her in. You'll forgive me if I don't believe the spin that comes out of their offices.

So your comparson is a false one, because that is intentionally taking out people to sell them as DLC, something BioWare doesn't do.

Pull up a chair.

ME3's Javik, according to the original script, was part of the original narrative of the game. Depending on which script you read, he was either just a regular Prothean you encountered or the actual Catalyst itself. His mission was originally an integral part of the game - you had to go bring him in, and (depending on your actions) you end up getting Ashley or Kaidan killed because they may not trust you. Either way, the mission resulted in you getting your Spectre status rescinded. It was to be an important mission in the game.

We know from pre-release datamining that at least part of Javik's dialogue and his character model were completed prior to the game's certification. Whether it was because of EA's influence or their own deadlines, the point still stands - he was taken out and sold as a DLC that actually has the only real relevance in theme and dialogue to the ending (the whole "synthetics vs. organics" discussion).

The question here is wether or not they should have Day one stuff. I say yeah, everyone does. Look at Borderlands 2, they have a character class that is available for pre-order now. It wasn't finished on time for the game's release, but the class will be available in about 30 days for everyone who bought a new copy.

Character classes are fine - they take comparatively less time to program (seeing as they don't need to have a whole plot arc scripted for them, in this case). This is different - as I said earlier, none of Bioware's games before being acquired by EA chopped out a squadmate to sell piecemeal.

Basically, if it is all available at some point for download, this should be no problem. It's not cut content then, its extra content.

You're falling into the same fallacy as EA. They try to justify it as "well, if we didn't do this, nobody would have the content". As Javik's case shows, the cost for that squadmate was absorbed into the development cost - he was scripted and changed through the entire production process, with most of his content done before the game was locked for release. I don't much mind a character being sold as a pre-order bonus, nor do I mind new characters added after the fact, but I have a serious problem with day-one DLC that smacks of being cut from the final product to eke out more profit.

By the way, one tidbit for everyone. The reason for multiple DLC spread across several retailers is because the retailers usually ask for it to make them more unique, and to compete with each other. Why that DLC never is released is beyond me to be honest, it should be. But usually that is the retailers idea, not the developers, in my understanding of how it works.

I can't speak for their other products, but all of ME3's pre-order content is on-disc - it's just locked behind access keys. That was, again, all on-disc by the time the game was certified.

[Darth Death]

Atakuma wrote...

It's going to happen.

[LinksOcarina]

crazyrabbits wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Jade Empire had a new character avatar and weapon style thrown into the collectors edition of that game, and I think a new summon enemy if I recall correctly.

That's fine. Nothing wrong a few more customization options or pre-order bonuses for early adopters. I don't mind that stuff at all. It's when entire chunks of game code get sold off piecemeal, when they were originally intended to be in the game, that I have a problem.

That said, I get your point, but I think you are misreading the intentions of what these characters were.  It's on record that Shale was going to be cut period before they had an extension, and that saved her pebbly butt from getting axed from the game. Sebastian always felt like he was a complete outsider that was integrated as DLC, meaning he was made to be DLC from the ground up. As for Mass Effect, same deal goes for them I feel, although I think Kasumi was just incomplete at the time.

On record? Besides a couple interviews I've seen from BW employees (who, to be honest, I don't take at their word), I haven't seen a cogent defense for cutting out a character that works well on paper and in design. If they wanted to unceremoniously cut her from the game, that should have been done in early production, not at the very end when they "conveniently" get an extension to put her in. You'll forgive me if I don't believe the spin that comes out of their offices.

So your comparson is a false one, because that is intentionally taking out people to sell them as DLC, something BioWare doesn't do.

Pull up a chair.

ME3's Javik, according to the original script, was part of the original narrative of the game. Depending on which script you read, he was either just a regular Prothean you encountered or the actual Catalyst itself. His mission was originally an integral part of the game - you had to go bring him in, and (depending on your actions) you end up getting Ashley or Kaidan killed because they may not trust you. Either way, the mission resulted in you getting your Spectre status rescinded. It was to be an important mission in the game.

We know from pre-release datamining that at least part of Javik's dialogue and his character model were completed prior to the game's certification. Whether it was because of EA's influence or their own deadlines, the point still stands - he was taken out and sold as a DLC that actually has the only real relevance in theme and dialogue to the ending (the whole "synthetics vs. organics" discussion).

The question here is wether or not they should have Day one stuff. I say yeah, everyone does. Look at Borderlands 2, they have a character class that is available for pre-order now. It wasn't finished on time for the game's release, but the class will be available in about 30 days for everyone who bought a new copy.

Character classes are fine - they take comparatively less time to program (seeing as they don't need to have a whole plot arc scripted for them, in this case). This is different - as I said earlier, none of Bioware's games before being acquired by EA chopped out a squadmate to sell piecemeal.

Basically, if it is all available at some point for download, this should be no problem. It's not cut content then, its extra content.

You're falling into the same fallacy as EA. They try to justify it as "well, if we didn't do this, nobody would have the content". As Javik's case shows, the cost for that squadmate was absorbed into the development cost - he was scripted and changed through the entire production process, with most of his content done before the game was locked for release. I don't much mind a character being sold as a pre-order bonus, nor do I mind new characters added after the fact, but I have a serious problem with day-one DLC that smacks of being cut from the final product to eke out more profit.

By the way, one tidbit for everyone. The reason for multiple DLC spread across several retailers is because the retailers usually ask for it to make them more unique, and to compete with each other. Why that DLC never is released is beyond me to be honest, it should be. But usually that is the retailers idea, not the developers, in my understanding of how it works.

I can't speak for their other products, but all of ME3's pre-order content is on-disc - it's just locked behind access keys. That was, again, all on-disc by the time the game was certified.

The whole Javik thing is not cut content from the game as you see it. Got to remember, Javik was cut from the game entirely because of the script change. We don't know the timestamp on when the script changed, but we know it happened because the removal of him being integral to the plot (and yes, he is NOT integral to the plot in Mass Effect 3 in his current form) was scrapped, as were most of the plans for the original script. 

So basically, it the same thing as Shale, where Javik wouldn't exist at all if he wasn't retooled into DLC.  You are basically putting supposition mixed with a confirmational bias to say he was cut out from the main game. You have no proof basically, because the way most of the coding works in-game is that a majority of the dialouge flags were datamined into the main game so it would be easier to implement him as a character. Was he locked, yeah.Does that make him playable without hacking the locks, no. 

But can you access the Eden Prime mission and most of his dialogue recordings that were found on the From Ashes DLC?  I doubt it. Got to remember we knew a DLC character was coming for well over a year before Mass Effect 3 got released. So they were making him concurrently with the game. If was part of the original game and was scrapped mid-development to be even in the game, then I fail to see what the problem is, other than the belief that this is a purposeful cash job which you have no proof of. Just like I have no proof of what I'm saying either.

Which makes this argument essentially pointless and based on the perception of the person, not the actual conduct of the company. We can go back and forth on this all day, fact of the matter is, we can't prove a damn thing. So no, you are not right and you have no real evidence to prove it. Just like I am not riight, and have no evidence to prove my point. In the end, we are both logcially incorrect, so swallow the pride and deal with that fact, arguing otherwise, and making it a fact, is just disengenous to this entire discussion.

It's funny, BioWare gets a lot of **** for doing something no one complained about until Javik, and now everything they do is a lie.  Like your comment on Shale, they said they couldn't get her to work properly, so the plan was to eliminate her all together in the end and sacrifice her character and backstory. But, I guess though, because they said it, we can't trust developers and their obviously transparent lies. Or is it more of just not trusting BioWare because they are owned by EA? After all, EA is a cancer killing the game industry according to the ignorant masses. And they know how to code things and how production works on video games more than the developers do?

And yes, that is sarcasm. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 19 septembre 2012 - 05:12 .

[Stiler]

nightscrawl wrote...

Stiler wrote...

As long as there is a version (at launch, not months/year later, what's the point then? Most items are for newer players so it's pointless then) that we can buy with everything included it's fine.

I don't understand why you see that as pointless, unless you have predetermined that you will only play the game once (or even twice). And if that's the case, why would you care about such items in the first place? If they release a "DLC goodie pack" or whatever a few months after release, every new character you create from that point on would be able to use these items. It's not like it's an MMO where you have a persistent character that will out level things like that and never have any use for them.

Most items are not for "newer players," they are for newer characters, there's a difference. Every mage I make uses the Staff of Parthalan for the entire Act 1 in DA2. Signing up for that newsletter (to get the staff) was one of the best things ever.

I care about such items because without them, to me at least, it feels like I'm missing a part of the game.

If I didn't get shale/blood dragon armor, etc it would have taken away from the game/my experience with it.

Not all items were for "new characters" but many were for earlier characters.

Sure you can play the game multiple times, but the first time is the best, before you know the "twists" and overall storyline. So having those pre order dlc's out "after" you beat it detracts from your first story experience.

[SeismicGravy]

How about doing something like this?

Book detailing the history of the war between Darkspawn and Wardens.
Dragon Age patch that you can sew on to your coat/jacket.
Extra cd containg all the soundtracks.
Uniqe armour and/or skin DLC.
Perhaps even a map?

Modifié par SeismicGravy, 19 septembre 2012 - 05:29 .

[Maria Caliban]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

So if there was some package DLC that allowed all the preorder items for a small cost would that make things better?

Yes.

Just spitballing ideas since I suspect just giving them away might not be something allowed depending on the arrangement with the retailer and a host of other things I certainly have no visibility into.

It's unlikely to happen.

[Brockololly]

I was ok with Shale as Day 1 DLC. If you bought the game new then it was free. Excellent. But with other Day 1 DLC characters or quests, it feels like you're not getting the full game. It feels like despite spending ~$60 on a new game, you're getting nickel and dimed if you actually want the whole game, especially when characters or quests as Day 1 DLC are integrated into the main game and you need to spend an extra $10 or whatever.

[AbsoluteApril]

I sure hope there is exclusive content for the CE/pre-orders... that's a big draw (for me) to get those. I also hope they do make those items available (for a price, day 1 or not) for the people that didn't or weren't able to get the CE/preorder. Seems more than fair, I have never understood what the big deal is...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Noted.  You hate hate hate hate retailer-specific DLC

Personally I have always only seen the items as fluff items, so they never bothered me.  Why does it bother you?  Just because you want ALL the goodies?

for me, yup. It must be the completionist in me.

[crazyrabbits]

LinksOcarina wrote...

The whole Javik thing is not cut content from the game as you see it. Got to remember, Javik was cut from the game entirely because of the script change. We don't know the timestamp on when the script changed, but we know it happened because the removal of him being integral to the plot (and yes, he is NOT integral to the plot in Mass Effect 3 in his current form) was scrapped, as were most of the plans for the original script.

Regardless of how you or I see it, the fact remains that it was a character that (even if it wasn't finalized by certification) had a fair amount of his content scripted, planned and modeled, if just for the character, by December 2011. His final mission is not all that different from the script - the only thing that changed is the A/K encounter and Kai Leng kidnapping. The rest of it seems to be right in line with those fragments. I'm fairly sure there's a date on at least one of the leaked scripts, but I'm not 100% certain.

Regarding his relevance to the plot, even if he didn't have significant relevance to the overarching theme of synthetics vs. organics (which he clearly states in several conversations throughout the game), he is a valuable character from a lore perspective. I go back to my original point from earlier - if someone like Viconia from BGII was cut at the end of development and was suddenly popped in as a DLC character, we'd probably be having the same conversation - "she's not cut content as you see it", "she doesn't do anything besides giving more Drow backstory", etc, etc.

So basically, it the same thing as Shale, where Javik wouldn't exist at all if he wasn't retooled into DLC.  You are basically putting supposition mixed with a confirmational bias to say he was cut out from the main game. You have no proof basically, because the way most of the coding works in-game is that a majority of the dialouge flags were datamined into the main game so it would be easier to implement him as a character. Was he locked, yeah.Does that make him playable without hacking the locks, no.

He is accessible in any mission by changing a single line of code. His flags aren't there (nor is his dialogue), but the character can be accessed and played in any mission if you flip that switch. You're debating semantics - I use a confirmational bias because EA and Bioware's behaviour up to this point has done little, if anything, to convince me that they aren't still using the same tricks they've been dealing for the past three years. I could sit quoting you examples of their attitude towards day-one DLC - how it was needed, how they either lied or were disingenuous regarding the nature of the character itself, etc.

But can you access the Eden Prime mission and most of his dialogue recordings that were found on the From Ashes DLC?  I doubt it. Got to remember we knew a DLC character was coming for well over a year before Mass Effect 3 got released. So they were making him concurrently with the game. If was part of the original game and was scrapped mid-development to be even in the game, then I fail to see what the problem is, other than the belief that this is a purposeful cash job which you have no proof of.

It's a grey area. You yourself state they were making him concurrently with the game. From what I've read with different companies, most DLC is separately budgeted and completely independent of the main game. Again, like I said, they had scripted him into the game. You yourself said they put all his dialogue flags in. His character model was there. His skill tree was there. Again, you're just debating semantics, and I know you're better than that.

It's funny, BioWare gets a lot of **** for doing something no one complained about until Javik, and now everything they do is a lie.  Like your comment on Shale, they said they couldn't get her to work properly, so the plan was to eliminate her all together in the end and sacrifice her character and backstory. But, I guess though, because they said it, we can't trust developers and their obviously transparent lies. Or is it more of just not trusting BioWare because they are owned by EA? After all, EA is a cancer killing the game industry according to the ignorant masses. And they know how to code things and how production works on video games more than the developers do?

Yes, I see your sarcasm. This goes back to an argument I was having before. EA is a corporate entity, and they're beholden to their shareholders - essentially, they want money. Nothing wrong with that. What I have a problem with is them cutting off their nose to spite their face. They continually engage in takeovers of profitable companies, gut them from the inside out and make them a shell of their former selves , then subject them to "flash-in-the-pan business practices" - the cases of Bullfrog, Origin, Pandemic and Westwood show it.

What were they doing before that no one complained about? Cutting characters or plots that didn't work early in the production process? Now they're just being much more blatant about it - the amount of code hidden behind unlock keys has risen exponentially ever since DA:O and ME2.

I've seen your posts, and I have more respect for you than most of the other posters on here. You seem to think of this as a black and white issue, when there are many layers to it. Day-one DLC is an ethically grey area. What I'd love to see are consumer review boards that go over the game code and make sure there aren't massive chunks of code hidden behind walls a la Street Fighter x Tekken.

Modifié par crazyrabbits, 19 septembre 2012 - 06:24 .

[robertm2]

you can bet your bottom dollar now that ea has total control with the founders gone there will be day 1 dlc, hella pre-order bonuses, collectors editions, and im sure they will even find a way to squeeze in micro-transactions. i was really hoping the game wouldnt suck but my hopes are shattered and im not very optimistic.

[Atakuma]

robertm2 wrote...

you can bet your bottom dollar now that ea has total control with the founders gone there will be day 1 dlc, hella pre-order bonuses, collectors editions, and im sure they will even find a way to squeeze in micro-transactions. i was really hoping the game wouldnt suck but my hopes are shattered and im not very optimistic.

Where have you been? The last four bioware games have had almost all of that stuff.

[Jerrybnsn]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Here's the thing I really hate, is having a different bonus for gamestop, one for EB, one for Origin, one for Steam, one for Burger King, and so on.

 

  I laughed so hard when you said this.  It's so funny because its so true as to how stupid dlc has become.   By preording from Burger King, you get The KIng as the OGB.

[Iosev]

I personally do not mind pre-order and collection edition bonuses. The only bonuses I'm not fond of are the retailer exclusive ones. For example, I'm disappointed that I can't play Kunimitsu in Tekken Tag Tournament 2 yet, simply because I went with Amazon over Gamestop.

[jkflipflopDAO]

SeanBahamut wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

Here's the thing I really hate, is having a different bonus for gamestop, one for EB, one for Origin, one for Steam, one for Burger King, and so on.

How many times do you think I'm going to preorder your game? I'm sure as hell not going to order 12 copies of the game so I can get all the goodies. That means that there is content out there that I as a fan will NEVER get to enjoy because I can't order 63 copies of the game from different retailers before launch.

I'm STILL pissed off that I can't get Terminus Armor and the blackhole heavy weapon thing for ME2. (not that I really mind anymore since you destroyed the entire franchise).

So how about this. . . you still make all the little goodies for all the retail places, but then you have to include ALL of that stuff with the CE.

This this this this. Retailer exclusives are a big no-no from consumers. Completionists dont like having some form of DLC that means they cant get it without purchasing the actual entire game more than once.

P.S. ikflipflop how can you still be pissed and then claim, in the same sentence, that you dont care?

I'm still angry that I was never able to have those things in my copy of Mass Effect 2. . . but now with the ending of ME3 I can't even replay the games anymore so it doesn't matter.

[LinksOcarina]

crazyrabbits wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

The whole Javik thing is not cut content from the game as you see it. Got to remember, Javik was cut from the game entirely because of the script change. We don't know the timestamp on when the script changed, but we know it happened because the removal of him being integral to the plot (and yes, he is NOT integral to the plot in Mass Effect 3 in his current form) was scrapped, as were most of the plans for the original script.

Regardless of how you or I see it, the fact remains that it was a character that (even if it wasn't finalized by certification) had a fair amount of his content scripted, planned and modeled, if just for the character, by December 2011. His final mission is not all that different from the script - the only thing that changed is the A/K encounter and Kai Leng kidnapping. The rest of it seems to be right in line with those fragments. I'm fairly sure there's a date on at least one of the leaked scripts, but I'm not 100% certain.

Regarding his relevance to the plot, even if he didn't have significant relevance to the overarching theme of synthetics vs. organics (which he clearly states in several conversations throughout the game), he is a valuable character from a lore perspective. I go back to my original point from earlier - if someone like Viconia from BGII was cut at the end of development and was suddenly popped in as a DLC character, we'd probably be having the same conversation - "she's not cut content as you see it", "she doesn't do anything besides giving more Drow backstory", etc, etc.

So basically, it the same thing as Shale, where Javik wouldn't exist at all if he wasn't retooled into DLC.  You are basically putting supposition mixed with a confirmational bias to say he was cut out from the main game. You have no proof basically, because the way most of the coding works in-game is that a majority of the dialouge flags were datamined into the main game so it would be easier to implement him as a character. Was he locked, yeah.Does that make him playable without hacking the locks, no.

He is accessible in any mission by changing a single line of code. His flags aren't there (nor is his dialogue), but the character can be accessed and played in any mission if you flip that switch. You're debating semantics - I use a confirmational bias because EA and Bioware's behaviour up to this point has done little, if anything, to convince me that they aren't still using the same tricks they've been dealing for the past three years. I could sit quoting you examples of their attitude towards day-one DLC - how it was needed, how they either lied or were disingenuous regarding the nature of the character itself, etc.

But can you access the Eden Prime mission and most of his dialogue recordings that were found on the From Ashes DLC?  I doubt it. Got to remember we knew a DLC character was coming for well over a year before Mass Effect 3 got released. So they were making him concurrently with the game. If was part of the original game and was scrapped mid-development to be even in the game, then I fail to see what the problem is, other than the belief that this is a purposeful cash job which you have no proof of.

It's a grey area. You yourself state they were making him concurrently with the game. From what I've read with different companies, most DLC is separately budgeted and completely independent of the main game. Again, like I said, they had scripted him into the game. You yourself said they put all his dialogue flags in. His character model was there. His skill tree was there. Again, you're just debating semantics, and I know you're better than that.

It's funny, BioWare gets a lot of **** for doing something no one complained about until Javik, and now everything they do is a lie.  Like your comment on Shale, they said they couldn't get her to work properly, so the plan was to eliminate her all together in the end and sacrifice her character and backstory. But, I guess though, because they said it, we can't trust developers and their obviously transparent lies. Or is it more of just not trusting BioWare because they are owned by EA? After all, EA is a cancer killing the game industry according to the ignorant masses. And they know how to code things and how production works on video games more than the developers do?

Yes, I see your sarcasm. This goes back to an argument I was having before. EA is a corporate entity, and they're beholden to their shareholders - essentially, they want money. Nothing wrong with that. What I have a problem with is them cutting off their nose to spite their face. They continually engage in takeovers of profitable companies, gut them from the inside out and make them a shell of their former selves , then subject them to "flash-in-the-pan business practices" - the cases of Bullfrog, Origin, Pandemic and Westwood show it.

What were they doing before that no one complained about? Cutting characters or plots that didn't work early in the production process? Now they're just being much more blatant about it - the amount of code hidden behind unlock keys has risen exponentially ever since DA:O and ME2.

I've seen your posts, and I have more respect for you than most of the other posters on here. You seem to think of this as a black and white issue, when there are many layers to it. Day-one DLC is an ethically grey area. What I'd love to see are consumer review boards that go over the game code and make sure there aren't massive chunks of code hidden behind walls a la Street Fighter x Tekken.

you never will see those review boards, because there will always be hidden code behind walls in a game. Sometimes its an easter egg, sometimes its an abandoned part of the game. That is usually how game design works; building off the bones of something instead of scrapping it entirely, because you have it connected to other aspects that may be kept. It saves time, money, and doesn't break anything if you are really good at it.

So one flick of code makes him playable in missions. I saw that video too, but in the end we get a shell without character to really use. That part of the whole design is less important than the reason why people wanted him in the first place; to talk to him. And most of that was not present in the game, but added through From Ashes. So if Javik was re-tooled or taken out or whatever, it does make sense to have him working in the main game so we can use him. Let's be fair, that is logical, so even if he was finished by December of 2011, it makes sense to have him already implemented to ease transition, as I said before. 

Semantics maybe, but this entire question mark of what Javik is in terms of DLC is all about semantics. It is a semantical debate because all we have is our own confirmational bias to go on, our own perceptions of how he was implemented. So yeah, it may be a point of semantics, but thats kind of the point to begin with, because there is no proof otherwise.

As an aside, the whole thing about EA being a corporate entity and downright evil is atrocious, by the way. That attitiude is what is, if you ask me, really causing the downward slide. Quality of production has nothing to do with it, but rather the perception of the men behind the curtain. Hell, when Gibeau made that announcement about about multiplayer everyone, from journalists to fans, blew it out of proportion to what he actually said. And the ironic thing is he said something that wasn't really groundbreaking at all, since Valve, Nintendo, Rockstar and 2K have been doing it for years now as well. I even wrote an editorial about this too, they get too much hate for that kind of crap frankly, and most of it is not deserved when the gaming world does it en-masse. 

But this is why EA can't win. Perception of EA on the whole. And because of that, it colors every issue with a sort of toxic residue because of how we see things. I don't give a damn about Bullfrog, Westwood, or Origins, that was the past. The CEO then is not the same CEO now, the company has changed. We also need to keep in mind the reasons behind those closings; Westwood is my favorite example because its the only one on a concrete record, where the majority of the staff left the company before the purchase by EA was complete, leaving inexperienced people working on a half-baked game that they had to shat out because it had an unmovable release date. EA is responsible for the rush job, yeah, but Westwood is just as guilty for jumping ship on them too, so what are they supposed to do in the end? 

I guess my point is that I don't know the answer to the DLC question, but I do know that no one does either, and to depict a picture of money grabbing as the primary focus cutting characters into a day one DLC ( when none of us have the insight or evidence to prove) and passing it off as a universal truth enrages me (and if that is not your intention,then i'm sorry for even getting involved in this) because in the end, it is all semantics, wether we like it or not.

Maybe what can placate this is a developer diary showing a 24 hour stream of the character being coded, then we have our proof and we can see the process of making a DLC character for an RPG. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:26 .

[Fast Jimmy]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

So what do you mates think of the day-1 DLC scheme detailed below?

Instead of giving CE buyers or pre-order people cut chracters or weapons or whatnot, what if they were instead given discounts on future DLC? All DA 3 CE buyers get 50% off on future DLC, in addition to artbooks or action figures or whatever else, and all regular pre-order chaps get 45% off on future DLC that will inevitably come for DA 3, facilitated with a code key that comes with the box that affords the discount.
How would that sound? There is still some incentive for preordering in this sort of system (savings on future DLC) while other players who are not willing to lay money down for an unknown product will not feel shafted at not getting Shale or Sebastian. When the Shale or Sebastian DLC is finally released, anyone who was willing to blindly trust Bioware's product gets their faith rewarded by receiving cheaper DLC.

Hmmmm. This suggestion is amazing... and eerily familiar...