176 réponses à ce sujet

[Todd23]

I'm pro CE and pre-order bonuses.

EDIT:  Don't hate the pre-order, hate the... wait.

Modifié par Todd23, 20 septembre 2012 - 10:08 .

[Astralify]

I have a suggestion. How about NOT including ingame content in Collector's editions? In CE you can include RL art book, DA badge, action figure, physical disk with the soundtrack, map of the world, something cool IN THE BOX. But NO exclusive CE ingame content.
This is unfair for people who bought the standart edition. And making the CE ingame content available for them to buy separately is wrong.

And on that note - no more DAY-1 DLCs! This is pure extortion.

[Last Vizard]

maaaze wrote...

Videogames costs alot of money. Gamers are not willing to buy games above the 60 Bucks price point without further incentives. Day One DLC provides more content that would have otherwise been cut.
I don´t see anything wrong with that if you want more games to be produced.
If you have not noticed Game Developers are dying left and right.

If Bioware needs Day One DLC to be more profitable and keep on existing, I am all for it.

you can pay up to $120 in Australia just for a basic xbox360 game and our dollar was extremely strong at the time...

[Tatsumaki]

If you dislike any additional bells and whistles be it day one DLC or extra stuff, don't purchase it? Just get vanilla and be happy about it. Before anyone comments about pricing, my country's currency is much weaker than the US dollar. One US dollar is more than three times stronger.

So if there are any CE version or extra 10USD day1 DLC, I just don't buy it if it is too pricey? Should i feel entitled for it? Why? Pay for vanilla get vanilla. Pay for Vanilla + CE bonus + DLC get everything.

[Dead Reckoning]

If I remember correctly, I think Shale was free. Just like Zaeed was free for Mass Effect 2. It was my impression that type of DLC was designed to encourage buyers to purchase the game new than to purchase it used. Becaue if you purchased used, you would still have to pony up another 15-20 bucks to get the content that was already registered by someone else.

I do remember that her DLC and the Warden's Keep DLC were really good. But all of the other DA:O DLC was recycled environments. Return to Ostagar was a valid location to recycle, but we got to approach it from a different perspective with a different look. And altogether, it was not very expensive. Witch Hunt was easily the most disappointing since I was expecting to have one last adventure with Morrigan and not spend the entire episode walking through places I had already seen just to talk to her for 2 minutes.

The DA2 DLC content brought a lot of new locations, ALPHA enemies and combat tactics into the game that were badly needed and I enjoyed both of those. And I thought all of the rest of the DLC for ME 2 was great.


As far as the Day 1 DLC for ME 3 is concerned, I did purchase the CE of Mass Effect 3 so I had no reason to complain. But I actually was more interested in getting the soundtrack than Javik. I have played through ME 3 with and without Javik. I do think he brings a lot to the story. But, I don't necessarily think he brings enough to the game to warrant the difference in price. The N7 hoodie and the Dog were disposible. But the N7 weapons were nice but also all together not quite enough.

But getting back the decision to release the content on Day 1. Once upon a time, I did work in the game industry. The game might have come out in March, but Bioware probably had to finish it at least 6 weeks prior to that to give Sony and Microsoft time to certify the game, and then you need time to manufacture the product. It is entirely plausible that Javik was planned to be in the game from the start, but that he could not be completed in time. So rather than cut him completely, he gets an extended development timeline to be certified and released after the game has already been manufactured. Is that what happend in this case? Only Bioware knows for sure.

But one point I do agree with. I'm not happy with all of the special edition versions that go out to various retailers. You might get a new suite of Armour from Gamestop, or a special weapon from Amazon. Or maybe lookup the code under the cap of a coke bottle only to find that offer expired before you knew about it. (Yeah, I'm looking at you, ME 2). Having these offers is great for the retailer. But I have seen some weapons for ME 2 that I would still love to use but have no way of aquiring them. I think after 3 months on the shelves, these retailers have probably gotten the bulk of their orders already. So all of those pre-order micro DLC contents should be included in a package for everyone to enjoy.  Before ME 3 was released, I did buy the remaining Weapon DLC content. But the item I really wanted was not there. 

Modifié par Dead Reckoning, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:04 .

[Cirreus]

I'm skeptical anything said here will take into account the retail business plans of EA/Bioware, but whatever ;

1. Day One DLC that is not free (e.g. part of Project 10 Dollar) is a cash grab, plan & simple. From Ashes DLC for ME3, nuff said.

2. The worst parts of the DLC for ME2 & DA2 is social networking/marketing DLC. Dr. Pepper/Facebook likes ... yeah what's next ? re-Tweets for +10 spell damage ?

3. Exclusive/Limited Timed/Location based DLC. This is most confusing thing about DLC these days. Just sell DLC straight from the company. I don't need to think about pre-order location, pre-order bonuses, store location bonuses on top of fo-first sale & CE bonuses.

Bottom line, "exclusive" DLC for what ever reason is BAD. The situation around Javik/From Ashes Day One DLC is so BAD, the only thing worse is the explanation for it.

[Paul E Dangerously]

I'm fine with day one DLC as long as it's part of the regular edition, like with DAO, ME2, DA2. ME3's crossing the line. I'm not necessarily opposed to CE only DLC, but having the character suddenly be part of the more expensive version after three previous games is not the way to handle it.

Preorder stuff? As long as it's incidental junk ("Oh boy, a +2 ring, I'll order from these guys!") I don't really mind. The stuff hasn't really been significant, and I don't see them changing it any time soon.

As far as the Facebook/promotional junk, see the above. People flip their lid about it, but as long as it's 90% items that only exist as stats it's not really something you should worry about.

[Ieldra]

I'm OK with Day-1-DLC as well as it being part of a CE.

What I'm not OK with is any kind of setup where I can't eventually get stuff regardless of which edition I bought or from which retailer I bought.

Include Day 1 DLC in the CE? OK, as long as I can also get it separately.

Non-retailer-specific pre-order-bonuses? OK as long as I can get them separately half a year after release or so.

Retailer-specific pre-order bonuses? Depends. If it's just fluff items then I don't care, as long as I can get them separately half a year later or so. If it's more (prime example: Dishonored) then I find it an insulting and offensive practice.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 septembre 2012 - 09:09 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

shale really pushed  the line of day one dlc in my opinion despite the fact he came with every new copy, the character was just to essential to the plot, especially te ozzamar arc, its was if it was cut out of the game and "sold" later

I thought the zaeed dlc was good justification to sell with new copies though

Shale was cut out of the game, the same way a lot of things get cut from the game.  THere was a time extension, however, when we ended up making console version.

The alternative to DLC would have, unfortunately, been no Shale at all :

I believe that. But i don't think you can expect everyone to believe all games that have Day 1 DLC is essentially cut content that was worked on after completion. It's unfortunately impossible to discern whether or not a Day 1 DLC is genuinely cut content that was put in the game at a later date, or if it was conceived and actively left out of the game for extra money. And due to this, lots of people usually assume the latter. Because gamers are generally a cynical bunch.

[Allan Schumacher]

It's not always cut content. DLC teams get organized and will start planning what to do with support content, and they start creating the content from there.

It's just my words though. I have no magical silver bullet that will convince those that feel this isn't the case that it's not stuff actively stripped out of the main game exclusively for the sole purpose of selling it for additional cost. With Javik, I don't personally consider him essential, but I do consider him interesting and highly desirable, and as a gamer I only pick up DLC that I find highly desirable (for reference, the only DLC I have purchased was the expansion packs for Fallout New Vegas, and the expansion for Shogun 2). Things like Horse Armor and whatnot aren't the types of things that interesting me.  It seems like there's a fine line though, as to some releasing something that people really, really want as DLC ends up just coming across as a cash grab type of move.  I'm not sure how to reconcile that, though, because I think the best types of DLC that we can release are ones that people really, really want!


When you boil it down, I think it's possible for someone to state that any content could have been in the base game. It just would have taken more resources to do so. To me it really seems like much more of an optics issue, and what I find interesting is that if a company were to make a DLC that was ready for Day One, and just sat on it for a month or two (maybe longer) before releasing it, fans would happier. Even though it meant that that company was actively withholding content that the player could have otherwise been experiencing. It just seems kind of funny to think of it as "Fans would rather not have the content ASAP if it's going to be charged DLC."


I understand that the optics of it anger some people. Unfortunately even I don't have the financial details to make me know if it is "worth it" or not. But in the interest of trying to be a bit more open to the fan base, I do think it's important to discuss it as openly as we can. People may choose to not believe us and I don't think there's anything that can really be done with that. DLC is still a pretty new concept and I wouldn't be surprised to see the models continue to evolve.

In any case, I dooo need to have a nap (being sick as destroyed my sleep patterns lol) as I am getting my bottom braces put on a few hours! Eeep.


Though remind me to ask someone for more information regarding preorder exclusive DLCs!

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 21 septembre 2012 - 10:23 .

[Biotic_Warlock]

CE should have a dragon age T shirt...

Then the phrase "Been there, Done that... bought the T-Shirt" is most appropriate

[snackrat]

I'd like if pre-order bonuses, such as armour sets, weapons, custom skins, and such were available at a later date as DLC. Same with store order bonuses.

For things in the CE, well... that's a little fuzzier, there's more grey area there. But a Collectors edition is supposed to be for, well, collectors. So you'd probably be better off bumping the price up and including a poster, lithograph, and an art book. Something for a collector to flip through away from the computer, to use as a badge of pride, rather than a little code to unlock a file that is installed regardless.

Think you could pass that on, Allan?


As for Day 1 DLC being available free well.. that actually makes sense to me. Day 1 DLC isn't just a matter of time and certification for said DLC, it is also a producers way of navigating around the second-hand sale system, where consumers get the same game as a (marginally) lower price whil the retailer pockets everything (and producers see nothing). Having DLC free for fresh copies but cost for second-hand is there way to trying to deal with that system.

Modifié par Karsciyin, 21 septembre 2012 - 10:56 .

[Wulfram]

The best way to make DLC more acceptable is to make the game look properly complete without it.

For example, I can't really complain about ME3 having DLC weapons, because ME3 has plenty of guns.

But I can and will complain about "From Ashes" because the game is rather short on companions, as well as info about the Protheans. And because my supposedly complete game nevertheless has a placeholder for the DLC character crashing Shepard's final speech.

[TallonOverlord]

KDD-0063 wrote...

Whether it's pre-order or CE, it should not have any story content that is exclusive to it, whether it's a mission, or a companion. All story content should be available to the standard edition of the game, even if the game is bought one year after release.

Imo some bonuses pre-order or CE could have are:
1) Artbook/soundtracks;
2) Exclusive items, though I hope I don't find a box in my home full of OP gear that makes me OP for the first chapter or even the whole game;
3) Armor/companion skins, has to be really well done though. Especially item skins that can be 'transmogged' into other items.
4) Weird stuff that doesn't take away from the experience such as playing the main campaign with a darkspawn skin (similar to playing feeding frenzy 2 as the intruder)

I like your idea. I was suggesting in another post to bring back star fang and vigilance yes the are over powered weapons but they'd be unwieldable until much later in the game. Plus if you ever played awakening it makes sense that a new hero would have it. Just my two cents though.

[Fast Jimmy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

It's not always cut content. DLC teams get organized and will start planning what to do with support content, and they start creating the content from there.

It's just my words though. I have no magical silver bullet that will convince those that feel this isn't the case that it's not stuff actively stripped out of the main game exclusively for the sole purpose of selling it for additional cost. With Javik, I don't personally consider him essential, but I do consider him interesting and highly desirable, and as a gamer I only pick up DLC that I find highly desirable (for reference, the only DLC I have purchased was the expansion packs for Fallout New Vegas, and the expansion for Shogun 2). Things like Horse Armor and whatnot aren't the types of things that interesting me.  It seems like there's a fine line though, as to some releasing something that people really, really want as DLC ends up just coming across as a cash grab type of move.  I'm not sure how to reconcile that, though, because I think the best types of DLC that we can release are ones that people really, really want!


When you boil it down, I think it's possible for someone to state that any content could have been in the base game. It just would have taken more resources to do so. To me it really seems like much more of an optics issue, and what I find interesting is that if a company were to make a DLC that was ready for Day One, and just sat on it for a month or two (maybe longer) before releasing it, fans would happier. Even though it meant that that company was actively withholding content that the player could have otherwise been experiencing. It just seems kind of funny to think of it as "Fans would rather not have the content ASAP if it's going to be charged DLC."


I understand that the optics of it anger some people. Unfortunately even I don't have the financial details to make me know if it is "worth it" or not. But in the interest of trying to be a bit more open to the fan base, I do think it's important to discuss it as openly as we can. People may choose to not believe us and I don't think there's anything that can really be done with that. DLC is still a pretty new concept and I wouldn't be surprised to see the models continue to evolve.

In any case, I dooo need to have a nap (being sick as destroyed my sleep patterns lol) as I am getting my bottom braces put on a few hours! Eeep.


Though remind me to ask someone for more information regarding preorder exclusive DLCs!

I agree that it is a matter of perception amongst the fans, but no amount of explanation is going to make that argument more palpatable. You can explain until you are blue in the face the benefits of taxes and the infrastructure it helps a country build to make everything better for the average citizen... but people are still going to protest tax hikes. And how long have taxes been collected? Since the dawn of human civilization. People don't want to feel like they are paying more than they used to for the same product without a clear demonstration of that product's worth.

Adding an extra companion and a few side missions to introduce said companion isn't worth $10 to most people, on paper at least. When you have over a half dozen companions and nearly a hundred missions for the standard $60, the ratio of price-to-content is really warped. That being said, people were willing to pay $120+ for games like Guitar Hero and Rock Band, despite having a pretty simple interface and game. They were willing to shell out $60 a piece for extra periphereals like a drum set, microphone or keyboard. But these same group of gamers protest getting charged $10 more for a character to be in a game. 


Notice - you never heard as loud protests for horse armor in TES games, or extra weapon packs. Its when STORY content is being charged on Day One that people begin to feel cheated. 

Allan, you had mentioned that even if a gaming company were to hold onto the DLC and not release it until a month after the game itself, people would complain less. I agree this is probably true, but I don't think it would quell all the complaints, mostly because the content for From Ashes and Shale was already on the disc. I understand that reasons why - integrating the companion into the main game requires that the full DLC not be included in the download and must have some built-in content on the disc in order to make sure the character works correctly. But the perception will always be, if you release it Day One or Day 60, that the DLC was just an "unlock code" for the content that was already on the disc. A disc which the player bought, and which they are being actively locked out of content for.

Again, I know that is not the full story, but it has an element of truth and it will be how people perceive it.

I am not arguing for DLC's to be all download, with no content on the disc. I am not arguing for no story DLC to be present, ever. I am not arguing against charging people for DLC, or for a company creating it. 

But the perception war is something you will always lose in this. Just like taxes, this is something people feel is a fundamental cheat or rip-off... despite the fact that they use services provided by taxes on an hourly (not a even just a daily) basis. 

So to combat this, I would advise three things:

One, don't include story content as purchase incentives, either through Day One DLC or through Collector's Edition bonuses. People buy your games for story, so to charge more for more story feels like they are being nickeled and dimed. People gripe about paying through the nose for popcorn when they go to the movies, but they don't protest it. Because they are here for the movie, not the food. The same goes for your gamers - we bought the movie ticket, we expect to see the full movie. People can burn a hole in their pockets buying soda or candy, or fancy director's hall seats, but we all still see the same movie, get the same story. Its just a matter of how easy and comfortable it was for us. Because ultimately, both movies and plot driven video games like RPGs are about story - so charging for a more 'premium' story is going to seem greedy and elitist. AGAIN... this is only in regards to DAY ONE DLC. I realize that movies have deleted scenes and extended cuts when they are released later. I don't have a problem with movies doing that, nor with video games doing story DLC post-release. Its just when that extra story is offered on the first day of release that the protest occurs. PLEASE READ THE LAST SENTENCE BEFORE USING THE DVD/BLU-RAY DELETED SCENES ARGUMENT, FELLOW BSNERS. Thank you.

Two, don't lock content on the disc. Again... I understand the technical, logistical and programming reasons why this happens. Companion DLC probably won't even work right if a lot of the content isn't locked on the disc. But its a BAD IDEA. You will lose the perception war EVERY TIME by doing this. Charging people to unlock something they believe they already have is going to just incentivize your gamers to take up a life of hacking to unlock the content. If not having any more Companions unlocked by DLC is the price of this, so be it. Stick to story DLC that provides extra missions alone. And if you have a Companion, make it a priority to get them out the door before going Gold, otherwise just write it off as a loss. As we have seen with the ME series, these DLC companions continuosly get the shaft when it comes to future iterations and sequels anyway.

Third, find a way to incentivize people to buy DLC with preorders. This may seem like a contradiction, but allow me to explain. If, by pre-ordering, you can make people want to buy more DLC at a later date, then you've just ensured you have consumers who are invested in your product and its future DLC work and purchases. I gave an example of this in a previous page, where a pre-order or Collector's Edition could, in addition to swag knick knacks and/or in-game equipment, also offer free enrollment into a group. This could be an N7 group for ME, or The Inquisition for DA3. This group would be given a discount on future DLC purchases, basically something the hardcore fan would buy because they love the series. This would then lock them in for at least 2-3 DLC purchases in order to make it worth their while and, with this built-in fanbase, DLC would receive more word-of-mouth buzz and would keep people playing your game for months - more than just your standard DLC model would. When a DLC comes out that people are a little "meh" on, they may skip it and just watch it on YouTube. But if they have already paid to get a discount? They will view it as a waste to NOT buy your DLC. 

As I stated in my earlier post, this will not upset anyone, since you aren't selling Day One Story DLC, players are still getting a valuable service for their extra money, fans who don't want to pay anything extra outside the vanilla game aren't feeling slighted and Bioware ensures more future DLC downloads than before. I don't see how its not a win-win...win! And, if you allowed this membership to extend across IPs (say, allowing DLC discounts between both ME and DA), then this will even further solidify the relationship and cross-polination, if you will, of your fanbase into both series.

TL;DR:  I'm going to keep plugging this "DLC Discount" model until I'm blue in the face. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 21 septembre 2012 - 01:00 .

[Absafraginlootly]

I liked it when you got the day one dlc as a bonus for having bought your game new instead of second hand.

While I don't mind the idea of bonuses for preordering per se, I don't like them being story or companion bonuses. Maybe things like extra options for companion appearances (if they are set), extra customization for pc and/or items.

[Aulis Vaara]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

With Javik, I don't personally consider him essential, but I do consider him interesting and highly desirable, and as a gamer I only pick up DLC that I find highly desirable (for reference, the only DLC I have purchased was the expansion packs for Fallout New Vegas, and the expansion for Shogun 2).

Javik is a little more complex of a situation though. Javik is, to many people, an important or even essential character.

However, the biggest kicker is that he was in the Collector's Edition, and people actually asked for more Collector's Editions, but didn't get them. Unless you count the Digital Deluxe that you could only get through Origin, but that is a whole other can of worms. If you already had to go halfway to the cost of the Collector's Edition anyway, it was suddenly a better bargain to just get the Collector's Edition, which even after much asking for it, we didn't get.

And, no matter how desirable the character, he was not worth ten bucks. The price was just too high in comparison to what we got.

Put all of this together, and try to tell me that it doesn't at least feel like a cash grab.

EDIT:: Oh, and the online pass we got as a "bought the game new"-bonus that nobody wanted. Almost forgot about that one. Apparently the values were/are equal, and a lot of people would've gladly traded the online pass for Javik.

Modifié par Aulis Vaara, 21 septembre 2012 - 01:24 .

[VanDraegon]

Personally, i love a fantastic CE. The more extravagant the better.

As for DLC, it is here to stay as part of a new revenue generation model for games. Again, i dont have a problem with it. Even day one DLC. I do think we should get a little bit more for our money though. Take the Soldiers Peak DLC for example. I thought it was well done and a good story. I didnt like that i was locked out of the keep once i cleared it though. I think if it is sold to use in the story as a former and reclaimed base for our characters order, well we should have been able to use it as such. Including the inside.

As long as the DLC options continue to integrate into the story well i am all for it.

[Mark of the Dragon]

KDD-0063 wrote...

Whether it's pre-order or CE, it should not have any story content that is exclusive to it, whether it's a mission, or a companion. All story content should be available to the standard edition of the game, even if the game is bought one year after release.

Imo some bonuses pre-order or CE could have are:
1) Artbook/soundtracks;
2) Exclusive items, though I hope I don't find a box in my home full of OP gear that makes me OP for the first chapter or even the whole game;
3) Armor/companion skins, has to be really well done though. Especially item skins that can be 'transmogged' into other items.
4) Weird stuff that doesn't take away from the experience such as playing the main campaign with a darkspawn skin (similar to playing feeding frenzy 2 as the intruder)

Im ok with Day 1 DLC, which by the way is hardly ever exclusive. You can always purchase that online after buying the regular edition of the game. So there is no reason they should exclude it from collectors edition.
If I remember correctly the Bioware Signature Edition exclusive DLC for Dragon Age 2 were all just fluff and had no real signifigance on the game. Just saying.

[Allison_Lightning]

I'm irritated with Day One dlc- but it's more that, even when included as an extra whether as a CE or a pre-order bonus- there's still the cost in downloading by way of your bandwidth. I have a pretty decent plan and some will be on stricter still. And if you buy DLC, you're essentially paying a double price. I'd like to see a way to either package day one DLC to stores so that people don't have to download what they've paid for or a compression that shrinks the size.

As for the pre-order bonuses, as long as they aren't story based and just armour and such, I really don't mind. With DVD sets, you get the same thing, an extra for pre-ordering where you do. That being said, I was unaware of the Blackstorm and now I'm sad. I think that getting to purchase the pre-order items after a suitable period really would help fix the situation.
Also getting the voice actors to do additional lines when you have a concept of a character like Zaeed but are doing him later, or the DLC story would help. It becomes very bulky and noticeable when other companions don't interact with the extra character or mission/quest.

At least unlike Mass Effect 3 (I bought first game years ago, picked it up a few months ago to play and now own all games on PC and 360), I can pre-order the CE for Dragon Age 3.

[SirGladiator]

I like Day 1 DLC so long as its good. DAO's day 1 DLC was good, Shale. DA2's DLC was Sebastian, it wasnt bad, but I'd rather the romancable teammate be female, so hopefully that'll be the way DA3's DLC goes. Both Shale and Sebastian sort of tied into the story in their own way, in addition to having their own unique quest, so hopefully that tradition will continue as well. Thats the type of stuff I like, not just random items or some such.

[DonSwingKing]

 You know what actually would be very helpful? Less DLC with more content for more money rather than two dozens of stupid item packs.

Modifié par DonSwingKing, 25 septembre 2012 - 06:21 .

[byzantine horse]

How Pre-order bonuses should be: Physical things like maps, artbooks, soundtrack etc.
How they shouldn't be: In-game extras.

No one should thank a developer for giving him a weapon that is better than everything for the first 10 levels as a pre-order bonus. That isn't a reward, it is a detriment. RPGs are about improvement over time and such bonuses take away the possiblity to improve. It also makes the game easier and who wants that? Give me an artbook or a cool map or whatever and I'll be fine, I don't want unique items that trivialize the first third of the game.

Edit: I must be cursed, my posts always end up at the bottom of a page.

Modifié par byzantine horse, 25 septembre 2012 - 06:58 .