486 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth Death]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Why not concentrate on the positive then ?

You know, constructive criticism ?

It's very easy to say stuff like this, especially if you enjoyed DA2. No point in sugarcoating how you feel to please or not to experience the disdain of others. That's what makes an individual. BioWare knowing the problem is half the battle. What remains to be seen is their implementations to solve the issue with DA3. Only time will tell. 

[Mr_Steph]

I think their stories are over, but they still have a small role to play in future games. So cameos, codex entries etc. are still possibilities, but they will never be playable again.

[Brockololly]

addiction21 wrote...
A Song of FIre and Ice has a similar approach and so did Tom Clancy is hit own right.

But with ASoIaF, you're cutting back and forth between the different characters as needed in the story. You don't just have all of everything Tyrion is going to do in book one, all of Jon in book 2 and so forth. Thats what it seems like Dragon Age is doing. Thats BioWare's choice, naturally, but if they're going to act like the Warden and Hawke are still players in the world then I'd prefer they think about using multiple protagonists in future games, even if just for small sections.

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
Let's move forward and understand that the Warden's story is over. It's also very likely that Hawke's story is over. I mean, if they bring Hawke back in DA3 but don't let you play as him/her, Hawke will end up saying something out of character and people will start ****ing about that.

The Warden's story as it pertains to fighting the 5th Blight is over. Hawke's story as it pertains to the Templar/Mage ****storm in Kirkwall is over. Unless your Warden is dead however, only BioWare is preventing new stories being told with those characters. IMO, those new stories don't need to be full games but could be done via supplementing the stories of other new PCs via playable sections with old PCs instead of either leaving them totally absent or writing them out or making them unpredictable and possibly out of character NPC cameos.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
It's tricky to provide closure for the Warden if we aren't wanting to make the game about the Warden again.  Telling you explicitly what happens is a huge risk and generally not worth it.

 

I agree but the problem is that each Dragon Age game since Origins keeps bringing up the fact that the Warden has vanished like its some big mystery in need of solving. And now that Hawke has disappeared too, its the same thing all over again.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
In what ways did you not receive closure after DAO Last Vizard?

IIRC there was an awful lot of closure in the epilogue slides.

EDIT:  Awakening is the cause Wulfram?

 

Origins was mostly fine- the only questionable end was if you romanced Morrigan, but that was decently tied up with Witch Hunt. Awakening screwed things up since it uproots every Warden into mysteriously disappearing for some as of now unknown reason. A mystery that the end of DA2 just reaggravates.

Killer3000ad wrote...

Inb4 Warden/Hawke gets the Rachni Queen treatment.

 
Yup. At this point, unless we're going to have the ability to control our old PCs in some future game, I'd rather they just be left alone. Let them walk off into the sunset and leave them be.

Il Divo wrote...

You're confusing a cliffhanger and a plothook. This isn't Star Wars Episode V; Bioware did not leave us on a point where the conflict at the start of the story was unresolved hence there was no requirement that they continue the Warden's story. What they did was give every character a jumping off point for a new story, which isn't necessary for them to tell us in future games especially considering the diverse arrange of routes a character can take.

Sure, something like the OGB doesn't need to have a new story, but as the DR choice is presented at the end of DAO, you expect that to be a big deal. That is why thats a big choice- you're assuming some subsequent big consequence via your Warden's life/death and the OGB. Maybe it will end up being relevent in the future, but the wind is kind of taken out of the sails of that choice/consequence if its just some unrelated new PC dealing with the consequences and not the Warden, the person presumably most involved in that. 

Il Divo wrote... 
And sure, Witch Hunt caused its own host of idiotic problems (terrible dlc in my opinion), but in general the OGB business is a problem because potential implications are larger than just spending the rest of your life with Zevran or something similar. But, aside from death itself, what do people here consider to be adequate closure for the Warden that they would accept they don't need another story?

 
Right- which is why I'm curious how they deal with Wardens that went through the Eluvian with Morrigan to raise the OGB (or normal child). Again, thats a choice thats presented at the time as being one with big consequences. Yes, you can come up with ways to have reactivity to those choices without the Warden being present or as a visible NPC in some future game, but I doubt those would be as involving and engaging as being able to experience some of the consequences to those choices first hand, playing as the Warden. How will BioWare account for Eluvian Wardens when they inevitably bring back Morrigan in DA3? Since they've said they won't have playable old PCs, that leaves a cameo or leaving them offscreen  or writing them off, none of those really making much sense or being a satisfying consequence to the importance given the choice to go with Morrigan at the end of Witch Hunt.

Anything new with Hawke or the Warden would be a new story but there is no reason any new story with an old PC would have to take up a full game. Again, you could get the point across with a game with multiple protagonists.

As far as adequate closure, they shouldn't have done something like the OGB if they truly wanted to leave the Warden behind forever. The Warden is intimately tied to that plot should they try to do something with it in the future. If you want to know how to do satisfying closure to a character, watch the last 5 minutes of The Dark Knight RIses.

[Jerrybnsn]

Fawx9 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

In what ways did you not receive closure after DAO Last Vizard?

IIRC there was an awful lot of closure in the epilogue slides.


EDIT:  Awakening is the cause Wulfram?

Stop reusing characters that my wardens are supposed to be off adventuring with.

Or give a better reason than they abandoned said LI/friend and dissapeard.

Yes.  This is another confusing point as to what the series of Dragon Age is.  Why are the former characters carrying on within the world of Thedas, whether they are making an impact on an invisible overarching story, or just there for cameo appearance sake,....and yet your Warden isn't.  It's an exclusion that makes me feel like I'm not needed anymore.

I mean, your not just a warden that kills darkspawn, you're The Warden that killed an archdeamon and ended a Blight in record time.  If....and a big if....they are going anywhere with the darkspawn story, why wouldn't they look to The Warden for guidance?

As for Hawke, I'm not sure why he or she would be needed for anything.  The whole point that Cassandra interrogated Varric was to find out what Hawke knew and did since he must have been completely blamed for the whole ****storm up in Kirkwall.  But, as she, and we, discovered, he was blamless.  Let him go.  He fled (disappeared, same thing).  Undre the circumstances, Hawkes absence makes sense.  He flees, that what he does.  What's the purpose of finding him again?  What is he going to do?  Flee some more?

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 20 septembre 2012 - 02:34 .

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

You're confusing a cliffhanger and a plothook. This isn't Star Wars Episode V; Bioware did not leave us on a point where the conflict at the start of the story was unresolved hence there was no requirement that they continue the Warden's story. What they did was give every character a jumping off point for a new story, which isn't necessary for them to tell us in future games especially considering the diverse arrange of routes a character can take. This was one of the more annoying aspects of DA:O that (somehow) all Wardens wound up at the same point, though solved by using an Orlesian Warden.

And sure, Witch Hunt caused its own host of idiotic problems (terrible dlc in my opinion), but in general the OGB business is a problem because potential implications are larger than just spending the rest of your life with Zevran or something similar. But, aside from death itself, what do people here consider to be adequate closure for the Warden that they would accept they don't need another story?

For myself, I had it already, up until the Warden's disappearance.  The Hero of Ferelden (assuming alive and not beyond the Eluvian) was still kicking around Ferelden.  Posasibly ruling.  Possibly settled down.  Possibly having new adventures, just not ones we're aware of.

 A certain other game that came out recently which had problems with its endings could have taken lessons from that...  

I was content to leave my Wardens, canon and otherwise, to that until these disapearances occured.  

[Jerrybnsn]

Il Divo wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...


The ending of DA:O, while ending on a high note and with prologued slide shows, began opening a lot of doors to the continuation of the series that were related to the Warden. 

You're confusing a cliffhanger and a plothook.  This isn't Star Wars Episode V

I wouldn't say that Origins ended in a cliffhanger like The Empire Strike Backs.  It ended more like the first Star Wars movie A New Hope.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 20 septembre 2012 - 02:36 .

[wsandista]

I honestly hope so. The Warden would be voiced and that would cause a bit of trouble, and I didn't like Hawke. I think they should just decide on a set canon, and focus on making a coherent storyline.

[ShiftyAssassin02]

I just want a really cool cameo =P.

[Renmiri1]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

Uh huh, I'd like more closure if characters are just going to be thrown away because keeping track of choices in sequels.

It's tricky to provide closure for the Warden if we aren't wanting to make the game about the Warden again.  Telling you explicitly what happens is a huge risk and generally not worth it.

Why not make a small DLC / Flash game (a la Dragon Age Journeys) about it ? Make one for each story branch and charge microtransactions for it. Who says you can only sell weapon upgrades ?

Sell us mini stories that give us more time with our beloved wardens and Hawke. Make an OGB short story DLC, a King Alistair and Warden Queen DLC, a Queen Anora / Warden King DLC.. Sell it for $2-5 for people who want a bit more closure. EA wants sweet microtransaction cash, we players want some closure to our own stories. Why not join both into something that makes EA and players happy ?

Modifié par Renmiri1, 20 septembre 2012 - 02:43 .

[Il Divo]

Brockololly wrote...

Sure, something like the OGB doesn't need to have a new story, but as the DR choice is presented at the end of DAO, you expect that to be a big deal. That is why thats a big choice- you're assuming some subsequent big consequence via your Warden's life/death and the OGB. Maybe it will end up being relevent in the future, but the wind is kind of taken out of the sails of that choice/consequence if its just some unrelated new PC dealing with the consequences and not the Warden, the person presumably most involved in that. 

That is the one outstanding issue with DA:O. The problem I have with the OGB as a plot point is that it puts all the different endings of the Warden on an awkward footing with each other. Whether the Warden is dead at the Archdemon's hands or enjoying the company of Leliana, most stories end on a definitive enough note that there's no real need for additional stories. The OGB feels like the odd man out because it leaves Thedas at this awkward transition point.

Right- which is why I'm curious how they deal with Wardens that went through the Eluvian with Morrigan to raise the OGB (or normal child). Again, thats a choice thats presented at the time as being one with big consequences. Yes, you can come up with ways to have reactivity to those choices without the Warden being present or as a visible NPC in some future game, but I doubt those would be as involving and engaging as being able to experience some of the consequences to those choices first hand, playing as the Warden. How will BioWare account for Eluvian Wardens when they inevitably bring back Morrigan in DA3? Since they've said they won't have playable old PCs, that leaves a cameo or leaving them offscreen  or writing them off, none of those really making much sense or being a satisfying consequence to the importance given the choice to go with Morrigan at the end of Witch Hunt.

Yeah, this is the real head-scratcher. One huge aspect of the OGB's appeal is handling the issue from the Warden's PoV. I'm sure there could be a decent plotline involving some other protagonist, but there wouldn't be that same sense of guilt as you're not the same guy responsible for potentially ending the world.

[Jerrybnsn]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Why not make a small DLC / Flash game (a la Dragon Age Journeys) about it ? Make one for each story branch and charge microtransactions for it. Who says you can only sell weapon upgrades ?

Sell us mini stories that give us more time with our beloved wardens and Hawke. Make an OGB short story DLC, a King Alistair and Warden Queen DLC, a Queen Anora / Warden King DLC.. Sell it for $2-5 for people who want a bit more closure. EA wants sweet microtransaction cash, we players want some closure to our own stories. Why not join both into something that makes EA and players happy ?

I asked earlier in this thread if there was anyone there that wanted to make another game or more dlc for the Warden stories and continue on the plot line of the darkspawn threat.  That's what I would rather play than to go through the whole Mage/Templar conflict again.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Why not make a small DLC / Flash game (a la Dragon Age Journeys) about it ? Make one for each story branch and charge microtransactions for it. Who says you can only sell weapon upgrades ?

Sell us mini stories that give us more time with our beloved wardens and Hawke. Make an OGB short story DLC, a King Alistair and Warden Queen DLC, a Queen Anora / Warden King DLC.. Sell it for $2-5 for people who want a bit more closure. EA wants sweet microtransaction cash, we players want some closure to our own stories. Why not join both into something that makes EA and players happy ?

Because I imagine each player would have their own desires and wants and if BW were to give more specific closure that many of them would not be happy with their ending?   Also the various circumstances for each Warden and each Hawke may vary so greatly that it would be a huge undertaking to provide closure for each different scenario?

They want to tell the story of Thedas.   Warden and Hawke's significance in that story is largely over.  To stop what they're doing and go back just to give you some meaningless closure would be unnecessary.  Just headcanon and move on, and hey, no one has to pay money for that.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 20 septembre 2012 - 02:50 .

[wright1978]

iakus wrote...

For myself, I had it already, up until the Warden's disappearance.  The Hero of Ferelden (assuming alive and not beyond the Eluvian) was still kicking around Ferelden.  Posasibly ruling.  Possibly settled down.  Possibly having new adventures, just not ones we're aware of.

 A certain other game that came out recently which had problems with its endings could have taken lessons from that...  

I was content to leave my Wardens, canon and otherwise, to that until these disapearances occured.  

Agree completely. They dragged the Warden back into the story so really hope they have a good reason for it.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

For myself, I had it already, up until the Warden's disappearance.  The Hero of Ferelden (assuming alive and not beyond the Eluvian) was still kicking around Ferelden.  Posasibly ruling.  Possibly settled down.  Possibly having new adventures, just not ones we're aware of.

 A certain other game that came out recently which had problems with its endings could have taken lessons from that...  

I was content to leave my Wardens, canon and otherwise, to that until these disapearances occured.  

It's really Witch Hunt and DA2 which uproot the Warden's story. I still think Witch Hunt is the larger issue though than DA2, maybe because the premise was more personal. But it was more philosophical babble and really skimped on the Morrigan content, as compared to LotSB which came out at the same time. I just don't think that DA:O, originally take on its own, provided enough support for a returning protagonist, unless Bioware was going to force the Dark Ritual on everyone.

Modifié par Il Divo, 20 septembre 2012 - 02:50 .

[astreqwerty]

but but...morrigan was supposed to be fundamental to the da universe...i want the choice of ogb to have some effect to the story(and i mean serious)..geez the baby is supposed to carry an archdeamons soul inside of it, giving us a quest were you can slay "morrigans child' would be just dull

[Il Divo]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...


The ending of DA:O, while ending on a high note and with prologued slide shows, began opening a lot of doors to the continuation of the series that were related to the Warden. 

You're confusing a cliffhanger and a plothook.  This isn't Star Wars Episode V

I wouldn't say that Origins ended in a cliffhanger like The Empire Strike Backs.  It ended more like the first Star Wars movie A New Hope.

If anything, I'd say it was closer to Return of the Jedi. Like I said, outside of the Dark Ritual scenario, what about the Warden's story struck you as unresolved? The story opened with the Dark Spawn and closed with them as well. In most endings where the Warden ends up with their LI, is it any less resolved than Han and Leia at the end of the trilogy?

[David Gaider]

Um, yeah-- my answer was with respect to the use of a protagonist between titles. If someone wants to argue the semantics of whether it's a proper "sequel" or "saga", or demand to know what our entire plan is for the overall story arch of the series-- and, not knowing it, assume that it can't possibly be epic because it's not what they want-- then knock yourselves out.

No, seriously, go hard. It'll give you something to do because this is something we won't provide clarity on even when the information on the game begins to flow. I totally hear the people who say they want more closure... and while I believe some people want a type of closure we're just never going to provide, that's not the same as there being none at all and no points of continuuity between stories. That is, however, just something you'll need to see for yourselves.

Modifié par David Gaider, 20 septembre 2012 - 02:55 .

[DeathScepter]

David Gaider wrote...

Um, yeah-- my answer was with respect to the use of a protagonist between titles. If someone wants to argue the semantics of whether it's a proper "sequel" or "saga", or demand to know what our entire plan is for the overall story arch of the series-- and, not knowing it, assume that it can't possibly be epic because it's not what they want-- then knock yourselves out.

No, seriously, go hard. It'll give you something to do because this is something we won't provide clarity on even when the information on the game begins to flow. I totally hear the people who say they want more closure... and while I believe some people want a type of closure we're just never going to provide, that's not the same as there being none at all and no points of continuuity between stories. That is, however, just something you'll need to see for yourselves.

good answer.

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

It's really Witch Hunt and DA2 which uproot the Warden's story. I still think Witch Hunt is the larger issue though than DA2, maybe because the premise was more personal. But it was more philosophical babble and really skimped on the Morrigan content, as compared to LotSB which came out at the same time. I just don't think that DA:O, originally take on its own, provided enough support for a returning protagonist, unless Bioware was going to force the Dark Ritual on everyone.

Probably more DA2 than Witch Hunt.  While Morrigan didn't get a whole lot of screen time in Witch Hunt, she was found.  And even potentially explains the disappearance of certain Wardens (those that pass through the Eluvian with her)

I don't believe Dragon Age was ever intended to feature returning protaginists (correct me if I'm wrong) but to be a world where many heroes have a variety of adventures, connected more through the shaared world than anything else.  More like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights than, say Mass Effect

[Jerrybnsn]

David Gaider wrote...

 If someone wants to argue the semantics of whether it's a proper "sequel" or "saga", or demand to know what our entire plan is for the overall story arch of the series--

 
So there is an overarching story in the Dragon Age series?  That's what I asked on whether the DA series was suppose to be a saga?

  and, not knowing it, assume that it can't possibly be epic because it's not what they want-- then knock yourselves out.

Forgive my ignorance on story writing or sounding like I'm a critic, because I do recognize your talent as a writer and enjoy your works very much, but. wouldn't it feel more of an overarching story if there was a known plot throughout the series?

edit: maybe DA3 will be different, but DA2 didn't feel like a sequel at all in an overaching story.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 20 septembre 2012 - 03:13 .

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Probably more DA2 than Witch Hunt.  While Morrigan didn't get a whole lot of screen time in Witch Hunt, she was found.  And even potentially explains the disappearance of certain Wardens (those that pass through the Eluvian with her)

Well, that was going to be my next question: are we to assume that the circumstances for disappearance are the same in each case?

The way that Cassandra/Leliana describe the disappearance of Hawke/Warden the implication I had was that they were tied to the same source. In scenarios where you don't go through the Eluvian with Morrigan, do they still describe the Warden as disappearing? 

Still, I find Witch Hunt a bit more troubling because the Warden feels more directly tied to a potentially major plot point, especially in scenarios where they enter the Eluvian. That's why I say it's more personal: with DA2's ending, you're watching two characters discuss a disappearance. With Witch Hunt, your character actively made the choice to step beyond the Mirror.

Modifié par Il Divo, 20 septembre 2012 - 03:15 .

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

Well, that was going to be my next question: are we to assume that the circumstances for disappearance are the same in each case?

The way that Cassandra/Leliana describe the disappearance of Hawke/Warden the implication I had was that they were tied to the same source. In scenarios where you don't go through the Eluvian with Morrigan, do they still describe the Warden as disappearing? 

Still, I find Witch Hunt a bit more troubling because the Warden feels more directly tied to a potentially major plot point, especially in scenarios where they enter the Eluvian. That's why I say it's more personal: with DA2's ending, you're watching two characters discuss a disappearance. With Witch Hunt, your character actively made the choice to step beyond the Mirror.

Well, that's a case where we really won't know until we get there.  Assuming the Warden went through the Eluvian, there's really no way Cassandra or Leliana would know that, and connecting the Warden to Hawke may be a red herring (unless Merrill got her own mirror working again...)

And yes, the Warden appears to disappear, regardless of Witch Hunt's ending.  Though I'm curious what they say about dead Wardens...

[Lord_Valandil]

You know, without meaning to disrespect the writers, if you write yourself in a corner and don't know what to do next, you may as well brush it under the carpet.
It happens in a lot of tv series, movies and videogames.
I'm not holding my breath, but...heck, I'll try to keep an open mind, without getting my hopes high, because if -they do- pick up and continue with these unresolved plot threads, they may end in a lame or unsatisfactory way.

Modifié par Lord_Valandil, 20 septembre 2012 - 03:23 .

[Fawx9]

Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

Probably more DA2 than Witch Hunt.  While Morrigan didn't get a whole lot of screen time in Witch Hunt, she was found.  And even potentially explains the disappearance of certain Wardens (those that pass through the Eluvian with her)

Well, that was going to be my next question: are we to assume that the circumstances for disappearance are the same in each case?

The way that Cassandra/Leliana describe the disappearance of Hawke/Warden the implication I had was that they were tied to the same source. In scenarios where you don't go through the Eluvian with Morrigan, do they still describe the Warden as disappearing? 

Still, I find Witch Hunt a bit more troubling because the Warden feels more directly tied to a potentially major plot point, especially in scenarios where they enter the Eluvian. That's why I say it's more personal: with DA2's ending, you're watching two characters discuss a disappearance. With Witch Hunt, your character actively made the choice to step beyond the Mirror.

Yet for one of my wardens, one of those characters shouldn't even be having that conversation.

The fact that she is raises questions as to what is so important that the warden would get up and leave.

[Il Divo]

Fawx9 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

Probably more DA2 than Witch Hunt.  While Morrigan didn't get a whole lot of screen time in Witch Hunt, she was found.  And even potentially explains the disappearance of certain Wardens (those that pass through the Eluvian with her)

Well, that was going to be my next question: are we to assume that the circumstances for disappearance are the same in each case?

The way that Cassandra/Leliana describe the disappearance of Hawke/Warden the implication I had was that they were tied to the same source. In scenarios where you don't go through the Eluvian with Morrigan, do they still describe the Warden as disappearing? 

Still, I find Witch Hunt a bit more troubling because the Warden feels more directly tied to a potentially major plot point, especially in scenarios where they enter the Eluvian. That's why I say it's more personal: with DA2's ending, you're watching two characters discuss a disappearance. With Witch Hunt, your character actively made the choice to step beyond the Mirror.

Yet for one of my wardens, one of those characters shouldn't even be having that conversation.

The fact that she is raises questions as to what is so important that the warden would get up and leave.

Apologies, I haven't played DA2 or Witch Hunt in a while. Is the character you're referring to Leliana?