486 réponses à ce sujet

[Todd23]

Il Divo wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

The Warden and Hawke's disappearance can be resolved in a book or comic. Or even a codex.

I just want something more canon than fanfiction

BUT WHY?

Seriously, I do not get this.  They give you ambiguity as a gift.  The fact there is no canon fate for the Warden or Hawke means you can go off and write fanfiction or think up headcanons without being contradicted by something like a Codex entry!

Damned if you do damned if you dont.

So what do they do?

Show someone waking up at the very end of DA3 to make it all being a dreem entirely possible, people get to find closure within the game.  And fanfics of alternate endings can be made.

[Renmiri1]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

b09boy wrote...

If you want to do multiple protagonists then give the existing ones closure.  The stream of cliffhangers is nothing less than extremely annoying and very much detracts from individual stories.  It also makes it difficult to accept further protagonists when it feels we're backlogged and finishing prior protagonists.

+10

+100

My Warden was done, happily married to King Alistair. 

Now she is in limbo and Alistair is traipsing around Thedas with Varric and Isabela. WTF ??

[Last Vizard]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

b09boy wrote...

If you want to do multiple protagonists then give the existing ones closure.  The stream of cliffhangers is nothing less than extremely annoying and very much detracts from individual stories.  It also makes it difficult to accept further protagonists when it feels we're backlogged and finishing prior protagonists.

+10

+100

My Warden was done, happily married to King Alistair. 

Now she is in limbo and Alistair is traipsing around Thedas with Varric and Isabela. WTF ??

Will Morrigan be a LI in DA3? hope not depending on save files.

[inko1nsiderate]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

In what ways did you not receive closure after DAO Last Vizard?

IIRC there was an awful lot of closure in the epilogue slides.


EDIT:  Awakening is the cause Wulfram?

I'd just like to remark, despite the chances of my reply being seen approaching zero, that I had closure with my Warden...until DA2.  The closure with my Warden was in the romance, or implied future romance, between Leliana and The Warden (at least, my first Warden).  Leliana showing up in DA2 and not really having much to say about that was really jarring.  If Leliana shows up again in DA3, I'd really like it if she spent some time talking about the romance instead of just mentioning it in a throwaway line.  I want to know that my Warden had an significant and lasting impact on the characers that were most important to her.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:20 .

[Deemz]

If the Warden appears in the game he/she is not going to sound like you had in your head and is probably not going to look very familiar to you. It was two game engines ago.

[Last Vizard]

Deemz wrote...

If the Warden appears in the game he/she is not going to sound like you had in your head and is probably not going to look very familiar to you. It was two game engines ago.

Why can't they just have an extra character to edit in character creation screen?  fix up the Warden then start the game, My Shepard looked funny when imported from ME1 to ME2 so I had to fix him up.   There are options here.

[Kulyok]

The problem is, the game doesn't show continuity. In the end of Witch Hunt, some Wardens depart with Morrigan, yet four years later, Bann Teagan casually mentions to King Alistair that The Hero of Ferelden should be in Denerim about now. I'm okay with "walking into the sunset" epilogue, but unless someone explicitly says "the game is bugged, the Warden who stepped into the mirror with Morrigan did not come back to Denerim", I'm going to remain confused, unfortunately. Maybe other players will, too.

Then again, Leliana says that Warden/Hawke's disappearances are related, but it's very hard to think of a common denominator for these two, especially since we may be talking about a Dwarven Paragon who quietly resides in Orzammar, and about a pirate travelling with Isabela(or a terrorist fighting for mage freedom with Anders, or whatever), with no taint in Hawke's blood. Their only connection is Flemeth, and from the games, she tells both of the protagonists that they are done. And unless some character says in the next Dragon Age games that their disappearances are related because of so and so/are actually not related and Warden and Hawke are continuing with their lives independently(and Leliana is an idiot who misled millions of players), again, I and many other players will remain confused. I think I'd just like this confusion to be cleared in the games to come, nothing else.

[Biotic_Warlock]

In my game yes.

Both my protagonists retire and live with their relative man hunks... (hawke has anders and warden has Anders (two timing ninja of hotness!))

[Jerrybnsn]

Last Vizard wrote...

Deemz wrote...

If the Warden appears in the game he/she is not going to sound like you had in your head and is probably not going to look very familiar to you. It was two game engines ago.

Why can't they just have an extra character to edit in character creation screen?  fix up the Warden then start the game, My Shepard looked funny when imported from ME1 to ME2 so I had to fix him up.   There are options here.

There is also the problem of, how would you feel watching your warden in combat like a Super Flying Ninja Space Monkey?

Edit: Super Flying Ninja Space Monkey is credited to LeBurns.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 21 septembre 2012 - 11:33 .

[jackofalltrades456]

I like to picture my Warden in a tuxedo t-shirt. Cause it says like, I want to be formal, but I'm here to party. I like my warden to party.

[David Gaider]

b09boy wrote...
If you want to do multiple protagonists then give the existing ones closure.  The stream of cliffhangers is nothing less than extremely annoying and very much detracts from individual stories.  It also makes it difficult to accept further protagonists when it feels we're backlogged and finishing prior protagonists.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to categorically disagree with you there.

The existence of unresolved plot threads is not a "cliffhanger". That is an abuse of the term (much like "cliche", "retcon" or "Mary Sure" in just about any Internet forum). A cliffhanger is when the central conflict of a story is not resolved. DAO would have been a cliffhanger if the story had ended en route to Denerim for the final battle.

You left wondering what happened to your Warden if you entered the Eluvian with Morrigan is more about closure... but that's another term that people like to invoke a bit too freely. An amiguous ending-- "walking off into the sunset"-- is often something that is done deliberately to allow the player to imagine where they went and what they did. Some people claim, however, that they will not ever get proper closure so long as there's still something they imagine their hero doing. They want to know what happened to them and Alistair, how they ruled Ferelden, where they went with Morrigan... if there's even a hint that it might have been something exciting, they consider that an unfinished story rather than a brand-new one.

But it would be a brand-new story, as the previous one was indeed resolved. The conflict ended, even if a new one began. The idea that we would have to either kill the hero or effectively kill all interest in their future in order to provide real closure is a bit ludicrous.

As for the territoriality involved in that character, as in the player feeling the character is "theirs" even if they've moved onto a new story and a new protagonist, that's probably inevitable. Short of skipping to another side of the world or another time, there's bound to be some contravention of headcanon ("I didn't imagine MY character doing THAT!"). Generally the rule is that we'll approach any use of the previous PC much more carefully than characters around the PC (like, say, Alistair or Morrigan). Inevitably it's possible we'll contravene the player's headcanon no matter what, and that's a possibility that exists the moment you stop playing the character, but we'll do our best to steer around it whenever we can.

[Emzamination]

David Gaider wrote...


Sorry, but I'm going to have to categorically disagree with you there.

The existence of unresolved plot threads is not a "cliffhanger". That is an abuse of the term (much like "cliche", "retcon" or "Mary Sure" in just about any Internet forum). A cliffhanger is when the central conflict of a story is not resolved. DAO would have been a cliffhanger if the story had ended en route to Denerim for the final battle.

You left wondering what happened to your Warden if you entered the Eluvian with Morrigan is more about closure... but that's another term that people like to invoke a bit too freely. An amiguous ending-- "walking off into the sunset"-- is often something that is done deliberately to allow the player to imagine where they went and what they did. Some people claim, however, that they will not ever get proper closure so long as there's still something they imagine their hero doing. They want to know what happened to them and Alistair, how they ruled Ferelden, where they went with Morrigan... if there's even a hint that it might have been something exciting, they consider that an unfinished story rather than a brand-new one.

But it would be a brand-new story, as the previous one was indeed resolved. The conflict ended, even if a new one began. The idea that we would have to either kill the hero or effectively kill all interest in their future in order to provide real closure is a bit ludicrous.

As for the territoriality involved in that character, as in the player feeling the character is "theirs" even if they've moved onto a new story and a new protagonist, that's probably inevitable. Short of skipping to another side of the world or another time, there's bound to be some contravention of headcanon ("I didn't imagine MY character doing THAT!"). Generally the rule is that we'll approach any use of the previous PC much more carefully than characters around the PC (like, say, Alistair or Morrigan). Inevitably it's possible we'll contravene the player's headcanon no matter what, and that's a possibility that exists the moment you stop playing the character, but we'll do our best to steer around it whenever we can.

Look david the whole leaving the conclusion up to the player's imagination might work with those who read and write fan fiction but for those of us that lack that 'Imaginative spark', that logics not going to fly and we need something more concrete.As a writer that creative spark that we're lacking is what you're suppose to be making up for.

Modifié par Emzamination, 21 septembre 2012 - 03:13 .

[Jerrybnsn]

I for one would like to state that I never called the ending of Origins a "cliffhanger". I thought it was a perfect ending that ended either on a sad or high note. However, I do feel that the ending of Origins opened up a lot of "missed oppurtunities" for further adventers.

Now Awakenings and WH seemed more like the Cliff Hangers. David, will we ever find out what was in that package Morrigan left the non-romancing Warden?

[In Exile]

Emzamination wrote...

Look david the whole leaving the conclusion up to the player's imagination might work with those who read and write fan fiction but for those of us that lack that 'Imaginative spark', that logics not going to fly and we need something more concrete.As a writer that creative spark that we're lacking is what you're suppose to be making up for.

I am not fond of the fan fiction approach to characters. But I'm also not fond of games that trample my character design and tell me that everything about the way I just played the game (and how I played my character) is wrong.

My "Warden" doesn't like the Wardens. He doesn't want to deal with the blight - he wants to find a cure for the taint. He would never take/dea with/engage with the Awakening plot. I want my characters to be left alone after their role is done.

[In Exile]

Jerrybnsn wrote...
Now Awakenings and WH seemed more like the Cliff Hangers. David, will we ever find out what was in that package Morrigan left the non-romancing Warden?

WH is a total cliff-hanger. I don't think DA:A is. "And you then did more awesome ****, being badass and all..." isn't a cliff-hanger.

[Jerrybnsn]

In Exile wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...
Now Awakenings and WH seemed more like the Cliff Hangers. David, will we ever find out what was in that package Morrigan left the non-romancing Warden?

WH is a total cliff-hanger. I don't think DA:A is. "And you then did more awesome ****, being badass and all..." isn't a cliff-hanger.

Alright, after further consideration I can agree that Awakenings didn't end as a cliffhanger.  But it did end rathre abruptly making me wonder, as the Warden Commander, what was I going to do with all that new found information.  Maybe, I should put that in the "missed oppurtunity" categorey as well.

[David Gaider]

Jerrybnsn wrote...
I for one would like to state that I never called the ending of Origins a "cliffhanger". I thought it was a perfect ending that ended either on a sad or high note. However, I do feel that the ending of Origins opened up a lot of "missed oppurtunities" for further adventers.

Many people have indeed called DAO a cliffhanger. As for further adventures, I've no doubt that many Wardens went on to do other adventures-- but those are brand-new stories. I suppose those are stories we could have done ourselves, with the Warden as the protagonist, but lacking the context of a Blight I'm not sure that the Warden being the protagonist would have been especially meaningful outside of the fact you'd played them previously.

Now Awakenings and WH seemed more like the Cliff Hangers.

Again, neither of these are cliffhangers. They had plots, and those plots were resolved. An unresolved plot thread is not the same as an unresolved plot, and the fact you might be interested in what comes next does not mean that what comes next is not a brand new story. I appreciate that some people want every single thing to be wrapped up neatly and completely final before they feel they can "move on", but that's neither something that stories always do nor is it something I would even consider a requirement.

David, will we ever find out what was in that package Morrigan left the non-romancing Warden?

Possibly.

Plot threads exist to be picked up and played with, like cats with string.

[Heimdall]

David Gaider wrote...

Sorry, but I'm going to have to categorically disagree with you there.

The existence of unresolved plot threads is not a "cliffhanger". That is an abuse of the term (much like "cliche", "retcon" or "Mary Sure" in just about any Internet forum). A cliffhanger is when the central conflict of a story is not resolved. DAO would have been a cliffhanger if the story had ended en route to Denerim for the final battle.

You left wondering what happened to your Warden if you entered the Eluvian with Morrigan is more about closure... but that's another term that people like to invoke a bit too freely. An amiguous ending-- "walking off into the sunset"-- is often something that is done deliberately to allow the player to imagine where they went and what they did. Some people claim, however, that they will not ever get proper closure so long as there's still something they imagine their hero doing. They want to know what happened to them and Alistair, how they ruled Ferelden, where they went with Morrigan... if there's even a hint that it might have been something exciting, they consider that an unfinished story rather than a brand-new one.

But it would be a brand-new story, as the previous one was indeed resolved. The conflict ended, even if a new one began. The idea that we would have to either kill the hero or effectively kill all interest in their future in order to provide real closure is a bit ludicrous.

As for the territoriality involved in that character, as in the player feeling the character is "theirs" even if they've moved onto a new story and a new protagonist, that's probably inevitable. Short of skipping to another side of the world or another time, there's bound to be some contravention of headcanon ("I didn't imagine MY character doing THAT!"). Generally the rule is that we'll approach any use of the previous PC much more carefully than characters around the PC (like, say, Alistair or Morrigan). Inevitably it's possible we'll contravene the player's headcanon no matter what, and that's a possibility that exists the moment you stop playing the character, but we'll do our best to steer around it whenever we can.

I agree with just about everything you've said, Mr. Gaiderr.  However, Don't you think Witch Hunt sort of left the main conflict unresolved.  I mean, Morrigan was found but now real questions were answered.

[Emzamination]

In Exile wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Look david the whole leaving the conclusion up to the player's imagination might work with those who read and write fan fiction but for those of us that lack that 'Imaginative spark', that logics not going to fly and we need something more concrete.As a writer that creative spark that we're lacking is what you're suppose to be making up for.

I am not fond of the fan fiction approach to characters. But I'm also not fond of games that trample my character design and tell me that everything about the way I just played the game (and how I played my character) is wrong.

My "Warden" doesn't like the Wardens. He doesn't want to deal with the blight - he wants to find a cure for the taint. He would never take/dea with/engage with the Awakening plot. I want my characters to be left alone after their role is done.

Finding a cure for the taint wasn't one of the boons listed in origins so right there you're head canoning for something outside the games parameters.All I'm asking for is a definitive resoloution whatever it may be within the confines the game has allowed.The players job is to define the character with choices and decisions, the writers job is to take every possibility and give us appropriate outcomes.There is no right or wrong.

[El Dude 9]

Sup

[Jerrybnsn]

David Gaider wrote...


Many people have indeed called DAO a cliffhanger.

Yes, but I wasn't one of them.  I'm just as much a victim here as you.

David, will we ever find out what was in that package Morrigan left the non-romancing Warden?

Possibly.

Plot threads exist to be picked up and played with, like cats with string.

You're killing me here.

[In Exile]

Jerrybnsn wrote...
Alright, after further consideration I can agree that Awakenings didn't end as a cliffhanger.  But it did end rathre abruptly making me wonder, as the Warden Commander, what was I going to do with all that new found information.  Maybe, I should put that in the "missed oppurtunity" categorey as well.

What do you mean, new information? 

Emzamination wrote...
Finding a cure for the taint wasn't one
of the boons listed in origins so right there you're head canoning for
something outside the games parameters.All I'm asking for is a
definitive resoloution whatever it may be within the confines the game
has allowed.The players job is to define the character with choices and
decisions, the writers job is to take every possibility and give us
appropriate outcomes.There is no right or wrong.

Actually, in-game, (in Warden's Keep) you see Avernus use blood magic to live for centuries. And you know about the calling (and, in DA:A, what the calling really means).

That being said, you did get a definite resolution. You're Arl of the Alienage/First Enchanter (eventually, given dialogue w Wynne)/Advising or Married to Alistar/Anora ... or y'know, dead. That's it. You've got your closure.

[Nerdage]

David Gaider wrote...

Sorry, but I'm going to have to categorically disagree with you there.

The existence of unresolved plot threads is not a "cliffhanger". That is an abuse of the term (much like "cliche", "retcon" or "Mary Sure" in just about any Internet forum). A cliffhanger is when the central conflict of a story is not resolved. DAO would have been a cliffhanger if the story had ended en route to Denerim for the final battle.

You left wondering what happened to your Warden if you entered the Eluvian with Morrigan is more about closure... but that's another term that people like to invoke a bit too freely. An amiguous ending-- "walking off into the sunset"-- is often something that is done deliberately to allow the player to imagine where they went and what they did. Some people claim, however, that they will not ever get proper closure so long as there's still something they imagine their hero doing. They want to know what happened to them and Alistair, how they ruled Ferelden, where they went with Morrigan... if there's even a hint that it might have been something exciting, they consider that an unfinished story rather than a brand-new one.

When you talk about "walking off into the sunset" endings, do you mean the eluvian specifically or all the non-death ends for the warden?

Because for the most part I'd agree with what you're saying, and I was happy enough (even if I did/do grumble) with my warden walking off into the sunset with Leliana, right up until Leliana reappeared and the warden was "gone".

Future plans notwithstanding, by this point it's no longer a matter of "walking into the sunset" and player imagination so much as "we've taken them away and you don't know where", even if their "gone"-ness is entirely non-sinister it's kind of hard to 'imagine' around it without knowing anything about what happened.

But I guess it's all just so much string to you cats.. 


Edit: Never referred to a group of people as "cats" before, and it felt pretty good... 

Modifié par nerdage, 21 septembre 2012 - 03:52 .

[Wulfram]

David Gaider wrote...
Inevitably it's possible we'll contravene the player's headcanon no matter what, and that's a possibility that exists the moment you stop playing the character, but we'll do our best to steer around it whenever we can.

So why did you suddenly go "Warden's gone" at the end of DA2? 

What purpose did that achieve except to toss out any headcanon the player might have had, and to create the, apparently, false expectation that there was going to be something more to their story?

[Il Divo]

David Gaider wrote...


Again, neither of these are cliffhangers. They had plots, and those plots were resolved. An unresolved plot thread is not the same as an unresolved plot, and the fact you might be interested in what comes next does not mean that what comes next is not a brand new story. I appreciate that some people want every single thing to be wrapped up neatly and completely final before they feel they can "move on", but that's neither something that stories always do nor is it something I would even consider a requirement.

Whatever terminology we use to describe it, I think the key point remains: Witch Hunt is unsatisfying, both due to the lack of concrete answers provided regarding the Dark Ritual and as a conclusion to the Warden's story.

Out of the three scenarios (Leave on good terms with Morrigan, stab her, or enter the mirror with her) in Witch Hunt and all the other DA:O endings, the Eluvian is the only ending which has an unclear direction for the protagonist. When you settled with Leliana, married Alistair, or even stab Morrigan through the mirror, there's nothing tying your protagonist to a future plot point any longer: they did their part, we can now walk away satisfied with their role in the story.

Sure, Bioware could devise a future plot on how the PC ruled with Alistair, but it's not necessary or expected. To follow your terminology, unresolved plot threads aren't a problem, but placing the protagonist in such close proximity to an unresolved plot thread which they themselves are responsible for is a problem.

Modifié par Il Divo, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:08 .