486 réponses à ce sujet

[Jerrybnsn]

nerdage wrote...

Future plans notwithstanding, by this point it's no longer a matter of "walking into the sunset" and player imagination so much as "we've taken them away and you don't know where", even if their "gone"-ness is entirely non-sinister it's kind of hard to 'imagine' around it without knowing anything about what happened.

But I guess it's all just so much string to you cats.. 


Edit: Never referred to a group of people as "cats" before, and it felt pretty good... 

Bioware contemplating new Warden adventures.
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

[Fawx9]

David Gaider wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...
I for one would like to state that I never called the ending of Origins a "cliffhanger". I thought it was a perfect ending that ended either on a sad or high note. However, I do feel that the ending of Origins opened up a lot of "missed oppurtunities" for further adventers.

Many people have indeed called DAO a cliffhanger. As for further adventures, I've no doubt that many Wardens went on to do other adventures-- but those are brand-new stories. I suppose those are stories we could have done ourselves, with the Warden as the protagonist, but lacking the context of a Blight I'm not sure that the Warden being the protagonist would have been especially meaningful outside of the fact you'd played them previously.

Now Awakenings and WH seemed more like the Cliff Hangers.

Again, neither of these are cliffhangers. They had plots, and those plots were resolved. An unresolved plot thread is not the same as an unresolved plot, and the fact you might be interested in what comes next does not mean that what comes next is not a brand new story. I appreciate that some people want every single thing to be wrapped up neatly and completely final before they feel they can "move on", but that's neither something that stories always do nor is it something I would even consider a requirement.

David, will we ever find out what was in that package Morrigan left the non-romancing Warden?

Possibly.

Plot threads exist to be picked up and played with, like cats with string.

And the plot threads where are wardens seemingly abandoned Leliana and Zeveran go where exactly?

As far as I was concerened DA:A still kept most of the wardens off into sunset endings entact, you just got caught up in doing one last thing before doing so.

But with DA:2 you changed that to where something came up and now players are left wondering what that something is.

Modifié par Fawx9, 21 septembre 2012 - 03:55 .

[David Gaider]

Wulfram wrote...
So why did you suddenly go "Warden's gone" at the end of DA2? 

What purpose did that achieve except to toss out any headcanon the player might have had, and to create the, apparently, false expectation that there was going to be something more to their story?

Why is that a false expectation? Obviously it's a plot thread we intend to play with. It's not going to be with you playing as the Warden, however -- ultimately that character is ours now, and while we'll tread as carefully as we can, the fact remains that new plots may use them in some capacity.

Contravention of headcanon is always a possibility whenever a sequel's involved. Gosh, I can't imagine the gnashing of teeth that would have occurred if we had used the Warden as the protagonist in DA2 and had something happen to them that they didn't imagine in their head-- like Leliana being alive. Oh noes! On that point, I'm afraid we will simply have to invoke authorial prerogative. Sorry. Hope it all makes sense once you see it play out, and thus eases your concern... but I can't promise that'll be the case.

[David Gaider]

Fawx9 wrote...
But with DA:2 you changed that to where something came up and now players are left wondering what that something is.

Excellent. That is, however, a new story.

[Emzamination]

In Exile wrote...

Actually, in-game, (in Warden's Keep) you see Avernus use blood magic to
live for centuries. And you know about the calling (and, in DA:A, what
the calling really means).

Yes avernus says he uses blood magic to extend his own life but there was never any sub-plot to explore so it wouldn't make sense for that to suddenly be a epilogued fate for the character.

That being said, you did get a definite
resolution. You're Arl of the Alienage/First Enchanter (eventually,
given dialogue w Wynne)/Advising or Married to Alistar/Anora ... or
y'know, dead. That's it. You've got your closure.

I did indeed get a definitive resoloution in origins, that wasn't my issue.My issue is with david's comment that because the main plot is resolved we shouldn't worry about the protagonist fate which is wrong.If the player is taking the time to invest, build and connect with the protagonist then of course they're going to want to know what became of them at some point down the line.For example hawke disapearing mysteriously into the mountains after the main plot is ok so long as further down the line we atleast know where he/she disapeared to.Leaving it up in the air that they just disapeared and that's that is not cool.

[Jerrybnsn]

David Gaider wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...
But with DA:2 you changed that to where something came up and now players are left wondering what that something is.

Excellent. That is, however, a new story.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ3yUCW8R561tQXfe7-Jbg86vF-kbVLTx1LvJCTpdJLKGxIr_SS

[Wulfram]

David Gaider wrote...

Why is that a false expectation? Obviously it's a plot thread we intend to play with. It's not going to be with you playing as the Warden, however -- ultimately that character is ours now, and while we'll tread as carefully as we can, the fact remains that new plots may use them in some capacity.

Apparenly I got the wrong end of the stick somewhere

However, I don't agree that the character is yours now, sorry.  Maybe I'll have to refrain from importing to keep hold of my warden.

[In Exile]

Emzamination wrote...
Yes avernus says he uses blood magic to extend his own life but there was never any sub-plot to explore so it wouldn't make sense for that to suddenly be a epilogued fate for the character.

Let's try this again: with a conflict being over (i.e., the blight, the whole point of DA:O), the main character can go do whatever. There's no loose end. Having a follow-up to that just gets into headaches like this.

I did indeed get a definitive resoloution in origins, that wasn't my issue.My issue is with david's comment that because the main plot is resolved we shouldn't worry about the protagonist fate which is wrong.If the player is taking the time to invest, build and connect with the protagonist then of course they're going to want to know what became of them at some point down the line.

That's the point of my example: what I want my character to become down the line isn't at all what David might. He even alludes to this.

For example hawke disapearing mysteriously into the mountains after the main plot is ok so long as further down the line we atleast know where he/she disapeared to.Leaving it up in the air that they just disapeared and that's that is not cool.

What if the ending that David decides is idea is that - for any Warden that followed Morrigain - he or she is killed off-screen saving her from [insert whatever]? You've got "closure" in that it is actually impossible to have any more follow up...but how is that satisfying?

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
 A cliffhanger is when the central conflict of a story is not resolved. DAO would have been a cliffhanger if the story had ended en route to Denerim for the final battle.

Sure, Origins ends fine if we assume its about the story of the 5th Blight and the Warden's role in ending it. Same with DA2, if its assumed that the main story there is Hawke's role in Kirkwall. Those stories are indeed done.

The delineation between a cliffhanger and plothook or unresolved plot is a bit messy though. Even at the end of Origins, the whole Old God Baby thing is a new plot thread but also acts as a cliffhanger in its own right. Although, since the OGB is tied to Urthemiel and the Old Gods, you could make the argument its still tied to the Blight and Darkspawn. So Origins ends with the central conflict of the darkspawn ravaging the countryside resolved, but with the prospect of whatever Morrigan is doing with the OGB looming, that serves as a bit of cliffhanger for that new plot thread.

Same with DA2's ending- DA2 didn't have as clear of an overarching story as Origins, but if its about Hawke's time in Kirkwall, then yes, its seemingly over. But the bit with Leliana and Cassandra at the end makes Hawke's fate (and the Warden's) into a cliffhanger given how it is presented. Its trying to provide some mystery and suspense to keep people interested for a future installment.

David Gaider wrote...
They want to know what happened to them and Alistair, how they ruled Ferelden, where they went with Morrigan... if there's even a hint that it might have been something exciting, they consider that an unfinished story rather than a brand-new one.

But it would be a brand-new story, as the previous one was indeed resolved. The conflict ended, even if a new one began. The idea that we would have to either kill the hero or effectively kill all interest in their future in order to provide real closure is a bit ludicrous.

I think it largely depends on how the player is perceiving the story itself. Is Origins the story of the 5th Blight or a chapter in the story of your Warden? Is DA2 the story of Hawke's role in Kirkwall or a chapter in the story of Hawke's life? If you're looking at those games as the story of your player character, then a loose ends or unresolved new plots like the Old God Baby feel like something worth seeing first hand in the future. They act as cliffhangers for the story of the player character, not so much the broader world.

So I think its maybe if the PC is never going to have a starring role again, wrap things up in some way that communicates better to the player that their role on center stage in the world is over. They're still around and maybe doing stuff, but their time being the main guy is done.Origins mostly did a good job of that. Its Awakening and the vanishing of every Warden that uproots what Origins accomplished. That and the unanswered questions surrounding much of what happened in Witch Hunt with Morrigan don't give the Warden character or player a satisfying sense of closure and readiness to move on to a new PC. But you're left feeling like that next chapter in the Warden's story is seemingly one worth experiencing first hand. If you're going for the walk off into the sunset ending with Morrigan, Witch Hunt works for closure IMO. But otherwise things like the book she gives you or all her cryptic warnings seem like massive cliffhangers leaving the player in suspense and seemingly with the Warden left with more stuff on their plate than when they started off.


I think the Nolan Batman movies get closure and cliffhangers right. At the end of Batman Begins, Bruce Wayne has become Batman and defeated Ra's and saved the day. That first chapter is done and you have the Joker card being a good avenue to hint at future stories for Batman. By the time you get to the end of The Dark Knight Rises, you have Bruce Wayne setting aside Batman, giving closure to him, while providing a hint at Blake taking up the mantle of Batman for new stories. But the focus of those movies and central conflict was always Bruce Wayne struggling with Batman and that is resolved. Kind of the same with Baldur's Gate really- by the end the personal central conflict is resolved, even though its hinted at more new stories could be told.

David Gaider wrote...
Generally the rule is that we'll approach any use of the previous PC much more carefully than characters around the PC (like, say, Alistair or Morrigan).

I see that as almost as problematic as bringing back old PCs, only in that the sense of closure people may have felt with their old PCs is in many cases tied to the PC's being closely associated with or walking off into the sunset with companion characters like Leliana or Alistair or Morrigan. So when you bring back those characters that were last seen closely associated with the PC, where does that leave the PC? At that point you've kind of uprooted the sense of closure that was once provided. Thats what I feel like Awakening did when you had all the Wardens vanish all of a sudden. Or Leliana showing up in DA2 working with the Chantry when its possible you last saw her walking off into the sunset to adventure with the Warden.

At least if old companions or love interests show up again without the old PC, it would be nice to have some measure of reactivity apparent in how the old PC has affected the character or some way to make it clear to the player that the old PC hasn't simply suffered some offscreen death or disappearance or are being ignored. Surely something like going with Morrigan to "face the future together" and raise the OGB would have a significant effect on Morrigan should she show up again? 

Modifié par Brockololly, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:17 .

[In Exile]

Wulfram wrote...
Apparenly I got the wrong end of the stick somewhere

However, I don't agree that the character is yours now, sorry.  Maybe I'll have to refrain from importing to keep hold of my warden.

Umm...the Warden was always Bioware's character. I fail to remember those times I could point out Duncan was a kindnapping SOB or where I got to knife Morrigan for trying to play me with the DR.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Emzamination wrote...

Look david the whole leaving the conclusion up to the player's imagination might work with those who read and write fan fiction but for those of us that lack that 'Imaginative spark', that logics not going to fly and we need something more concrete.As a writer that creative spark that we're lacking is what you're suppose to be making up for.

You've been good at imagining you're correct in any shape or form and making up your own version of history, so I don't know what's stopping you now

Stop selling yourself short

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:12 .

[Mark of the Dragon]

David Gaider wrote...

Um, yeah-- my answer was with respect to the use of a protagonist between titles. If someone wants to argue the semantics of whether it's a proper "sequel" or "saga", or demand to know what our entire plan is for the overall story arch of the series-- and, not knowing it, assume that it can't possibly be epic because it's not what they want-- then knock yourselves out.

No, seriously, go hard. It'll give you something to do because this is something we won't provide clarity on even when the information on the game begins to flow. I totally hear the people who say they want more closure... and while I believe some people want a type of closure we're just never going to provide, that's not the same as there being none at all and no points of continuuity between stories. That is, however, just something you'll need to see for yourselves.

I do not know what everyone else wants but all I want is closure for my main character. I dont need all the story threads tied up because whats the point of another game if they are? If there is no intent on bringing a character back however then at least close out there story in a satisfying way. One of my biggest complaints for DA2 was the fact Hawkes story was left on such a cliffhanger. You dont need that cliffhanger to make the next game so why not end that characters story?
Everyone keeps saying these are our characters so let us see the end of OUR characters stories please. They dont have to come back and solve all the issues. Im fine with a new protagonist each game as long as the character before gets an appropriate ending and doesnt just disappear. For the record I was totally fine with DAO original ending and I was still fine with how Witch Hunt ended. DA2 on the otherhand did not really have an ending. It just felt more like the player only got half the story.

Thanks for listening

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...
The delineation between a cliffhanger and plothook or unresolved plot is a bit messy though. Even at the end of Origins, the whole Old God Baby thing is a new plot thread but also acts as a cliffhanger in its own right. Although, since the OGB is tied to Urthemiel and the Old Gods, you could make the argument its still tied to the Blight and Darkspawn.

Your thing for the OBG is really intense, I know, but seriously just because you Morrigan doesn't mean that even wanting to follow-up on her follows. If you marry Anora with your Cousland, Morrigan is totally supportive (and indeed, encouraging) of you to be King. That you care about this plot and (for some strange reason) think either the Warden or the Orlesian should follow-up does not make it a loose end.

I think it largely depends on how the player is perceiving the story itself. Is Origins the story of the 5th Blight or a chapter in the story of your Warden? Is DA2 the story of Hawke's role in Kirkwall or a chapter in the story of Hawke's life? If you're looking at those games as the story of your player character, then a loose ends or unresolved new plots like the Old God Baby feel like something worth seeing first hand in the future. They act as cliffhangers for the story of the player character, not so much the broader world.

The OBG is a plot point, sure, but that doesn't make it a loose end. It's a sequel hook.

Its Awakening and the vanishing of every Warden that uproots what Origins accomplished.

It seriously doesn't. Did you not play HoTU? Saying the Hero of Neverwinter (or whatever the name was) got to do more cool stuff later (which is totally hush-hush) is not ending on a cliffhanger. That's ridiculous.

That and the unanswered questions surrounding much of what happened in Witch Hunt with Morrigan don't give the Warden character or player a satisfying sense of closure and readiness to move on to a new PC.

You're totally right about this, though. It would have made sense if DA2 was about Morrigan... but just having that lose end was a total WTF.

So when you bring back those characters that were last seen closely associated with the PC, where does that leave the PC? At that point you've kind of uprooted the sense of closure that was once provided. Thats what I feel like Awakening did when you had all the Wardens vanish all of a sudden. Or Leliana showing up in DA2 working with the Chantry when its possible you last saw her walking off into the sunset to adventure with the Warden.

At least if old companions or love interests show up again without the old PC, it would be nice to have some measure of reactivity apparent in how the old PC has affected the character or some way to make it clear to the player that the old PC hasn't simply suffered some offscreen death or disappearance or are being ignored. Surely something like going with Morrigan to "face th future together" and raise the OGB would have a significant effect on Morrigan should she show up again?

I don't understand the issue you have with interacting with the characters through the same PC. You (you as in Brock) know the character. Everything else is a chance for a new perspective and new arc.

Modifié par In Exile, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:18 .

[Emzamination]

In Exile wrote...

That's the point of my example: what I want my character to become down the line isn't at all what David might. He even alludes to this.

Ok I see...We're arguing two different things.What I'm arguing is a resoloution period, whatever it may be.What you're arguing is what that resoloution should be.

What if the ending that David decides is idea is that - for any Warden
that followed Morrigain - he or she is killed off-screen saving her from
[insert whatever]? You've got "closure" in that it is actually
impossible to have any more follow up...but how is that satisfying?

"I" wouldn't mind that as now I know he's dead and I can move on.I also wouldn't mind the ending to witch hunt if morrigan never came back without an explanation as to what the wardens fate.If she was to say he died then I'd be fine with that because I now have my resoloution.

[Emzamination]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Look david the whole leaving the conclusion up to the player's imagination might work with those who read and write fan fiction but for those of us that lack that 'Imaginative spark', that logics not going to fly and we need something more concrete.As a writer that creative spark that we're lacking is what you're suppose to be making up for.

You've been good at imagining you're correct in any shape or form and making up your own version of history, so I don't know what's stopping you now

Stop selling yourself short

Now we come to the point where I cooly and calmly refuse your subtle advances with "Sorry you're not what I'm looking for in a debate Partner" and I'll leave it at that <3

[In Exile]

Emzamination wrote...
Ok I see...We're arguing two different things.What I'm arguing is a resoloution period, whatever it may be.What you're arguing is what that resoloution should be.

Okay... but David is totally is saying they'll do this. Mike said this too, earlier post one of DA2's DLCs. My bad.

"I" wouldn't mind that as now I know he's dead and I can move on.I also wouldn't mind the ending to witch hunt if morrigan never came back without an explanation as to what the wardens fate.If she was to say he died then I'd be fine with that because I now have my resoloution.

I think Bioware has totally been upfront that there will be closure in the sense that you are using it. I think on this page of this thread, too!

Modifié par In Exile, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:26 .

[Renmiri1]

David Gaider wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...
But with DA:2 you changed that to where something came up and now players are left wondering what that something is.

Excellent. That is, however, a new story.

Gaaahhh... Can't wait for DA3 

[upsettingshorts]

@In Exile:

Uh oh, you've challenged Brockololly's precious "expectations."

[Brockololly]

In Exile wrote...
That you care about this plot and (for some strange reason) think either the Warden or the Orlesian should follow-up does not make it a loose end.

Right, not every Warden gives a **** about Morrigan. I get that. But Witch Hunt happens, presumably making it canon for all Wardens (I'm assuming) that they go off and look for Morrigan. You can headcanon it that your Warden went back to turnip farming after Witch Hunt if you want.

Its that the Warden or Orlesian has some past and knowledge of Morrigan that makes it plausible for them to follow up on Morrigan should the plot need it. The whole thing with the Warden possibly making an OGB makes it plausible that for that Warden its a personal loose end. Not every Warden , but definitely for some.

In Exile wrote...
The OBG is a plot point, sure, but that doesn't make it a loose end. It's a sequel hook.

Its a loose end depending on your Warden. Sure, for some it isn't. But its a plot point that you could feasibly see the Warden getting blow back from down the road, unless they're dead. Loghain says as much if you do the ritual, he says the Wardens are investigating and suspicous how you managed to survive. Its a possible loose end that might turn out to be nothing or it could turn out to be a big deal.

In Exile wrote...
You're totally right about this, though. It would have made sense if DA2 was about Morrigan... but just having that lose end was a total WTF.

An expansion pack to Origins dealing with that would have been fine too.

In Exile wrote...
I don't understand the issue you have with interacting with the characters through the same PC. You (you as in Brock) know the character. Everything else is a chance for a new perspective and new arc.

I don't have any issue with interacting with old characters through a new PC, so long as you have a certain level of reactivity apparent to the player on how the old PC has affected the old companion. Especially for old love interest characters. But with any old character I think if its going to be a small cameo its more satisfying if its the old PC interacting with the old companion since its a more personal reunion of sorts.

[watchdown]

I'm very much reminded of Revan and the Exile here. I think many players wanted to continue Revan's story but never got a chance to, so his/her story unfortunately stays incomplete. I don't want to see that happen to the Warden and Hawke. My preference would be to play as the Warden, but I think players should have the choice to play as Hawke too - or a new hero altogether if they're unfamiliar with the series or just over those characters.

[Androme]

David I love you but can we please have DA3 now


plz :'(

[upsettingshorts]

watchdown wrote...

I'm very much reminded of Revan and the Exile here. I think many players wanted to continue Revan's story but never got a chance to, so his/her story unfortunately stays incomplete.

Until the part where SWTOR resurrects him (made canonically male) as a light-side character (now canon) who ends up bridging the gap between some Jedi and Sith resulting in a cult-like following that is detailed in numerous quests.

[Maclimes]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Until the part where SWTOR resurrects him (made canonically male) as a light-side character (now canon) who ends up bridging the gap between some Jedi and Sith resulting in a cult-like following that is detailed in numerous quests.

That was always the case, actually. The canon for the two games is:
KOTOR: Revan is male, light side
KOTOR2: Exile is female, light side

That was mentioned years and years ago. You can check Wookiepedia if you want sources, but that's not new.

[addiction21]

David Gaider wrote...

Why is that a false expectation? Obviously it's a plot thread we intend to play with. It's not going to be with you playing as the Warden, however -- ultimately that character is ours now, and while we'll tread as carefully as we can, the fact remains that new plots may use them in some capacity.

Batten down the hatches and stack those sandbags high. A flood is coming.

I am going to stock up on the popcorn.


My wardens and Hawkes pretty much exsist outside of the games at this point and are their own various adventures (or dead).

[MelRedux]

Maclimes wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Until the part where SWTOR resurrects him (made canonically male) as a light-side character (now canon) who ends up bridging the gap between some Jedi and Sith resulting in a cult-like following that is detailed in numerous quests.

That was always the case, actually. The canon for the two games is:
KOTOR: Revan is male, light side
KOTOR2: Exile is female, light side

That was mentioned years and years ago. You can check Wookiepedia if you want sources, but that's not new.

True.  I just stuck my fingers in my ears going "LALALALALALA".