486 réponses à ce sujet

[philippe willaume]

David Gaider wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
So why did you suddenly go "Warden's gone" at the end of DA2? 

What purpose did that achieve except to toss out any headcanon the player might have had, and to create the, apparently, false expectation that there was going to be something more to their story?

Why is that a false expectation? Obviously it's a plot thread we intend to play with. It's not going to be with you playing as the Warden, however -- ultimately that character is ours now, and while we'll tread as carefully as we can, the fact remains that new plots may use them in some capacity.

Contravention of headcanon is always a possibility whenever a sequel's involved. Gosh, I can't imagine the gnashing of teeth that would have occurred if we had used the Warden as the protagonist in DA2 and had something happen to them that they didn't imagine in their head-- like Leliana being alive. Oh noes! On that point, I'm afraid we will simply have to invoke authorial prerogative. Sorry. Hope it all makes sense once you see it play out, and thus eases your concern... but I can't promise that'll be the case.

that is all good,  as you said like Shepard they are you char and It is you story to tell.
Just pretty please with a cherry on the top, i swear i will come to clean your offices for a week, make you proper pancake amd even publicly admint  on all HEMA forum that Rapier is perfectly sound weapon much better than longsword. I beg you on my knee tell us the story don't make us guess. 

Phil

[upsettingshorts]

Maclimes wrote...

That was mentioned years and years ago. You can check Wookiepedia if you want sources, but that's not new.

/shrug

While I didn't know that, it hardly changes the fact that a lot of people did first hear about it with SWTOR and weren't pleased.

Personally I'm in favor of ambiguity forever.  But really the Warden bores me to tears so I don't frankly care what they do with him.  Hawke on the other hand...

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 septembre 2012 - 05:07 .

[Maclimes]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

/shrug

While I didn't know that, it hardly changes the fact that a lot of people did first hear about it with SWTOR and weren't pleased.

Personally I'm in favor of ambiguity forever.  But really the Warden bores me to tears so I don't frankly care what they do with him.  Hawke on the other hand...

A valid point.

And it's interesting what you say about Warden/Hawke. I'm not sure if I agree 100%, but it certainly brings up a lot of thoughts. Hawke has a name, which people actually use. He has a voice. A personality. I can totally see why someone would get more attached to him than, say, the silent, stoic Warden.

Headcanon is all well and good, but at the end of the day, it's nice to have some real direct character.

[upsettingshorts]

Well, my Warden has a personality too. I gave him one. Like anyone who played DAO did I suppose. The issue I have with the Warden as a character isn't the execution of it - though I'm not a fan of the silent protagonist, I feel its a separate issue - but his/her story in general. In that sense, if the Warden was voiced and Hawke was silent, I'd still care more about Hawke's story.

The Warden did the video game thing where he saved the world from the big bad and helped preserve the status quo. He made some big calls along the way sure, but rarely (never in some cases, depending on your Origin-to-plot-flag relationship) anything that had personally to do with him.

Hawke is more interesting to me because, at least in my game, he failed utterly in his goals. He tried to maintain the status quo but was overcome by events. The story of DA2 raises my Hawke up and then breaks him.  I'd kind of like for him to have the opportunity to pick him back up off the ground again.  

That's just a more interesting plot thread to pick up (hypothetically) than the one I had with my Warden, who was more of a reluctant hero forced into being everyone's savior and kind of feels trapped into a life he never wanted.  Being a Warden is not a fun or rewarding existence for him, just the one he believes the Maker has chosen for him, so he dutifully does what he can.

But that's... kind of off topic, isn't it?  My personal rantings about my personal protagonists' stories.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 septembre 2012 - 05:21 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

That was mentioned years and years ago. You can check Wookiepedia if you want sources, but that's not new.

/shrug

While I didn't know that, it hardly changes the fact that a lot of people did first hear about it with SWTOR and weren't pleased.

Personally I'm in favor of ambiguity forever.  But really the Warden bores me to tears so I don't frankly care what they do with him.  Hawke on the other hand...

tbh if the writers do end up using Warden for whatever reason I'll be glad because I'm sure they'd do something fairly interesting with that tired ol' character.  

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 21 septembre 2012 - 05:18 .

[Rpgfantasyplayer]

I get what David is saying. We did finish the stories of the warden and of Hawke. They both completed what was set out for them to do. But things were also kind of let open so that if in any future game the team can give information about the warden and Hawke and other NPC's as to what they have been up to. To me, my warden married Alistair and they lived happily ever after and Hawke went off with Fenris to finally have a life that they both wanted. My imagination has allowed me to find a closure for my characters. A closure doesn't have to be black or white.

And in response to Emzamination that it may be okay for people who read or right fanfiction to imagine closure, I do neither one of these and my imagination has been able to conclude things just fine for myself.

[Maclimes]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, my Warden has a personality too. I gave him one. Like anyone who played DAO did I suppose. The issue I have with the Warden as a character isn't the execution of it - though I'm not a fan of the silent protagonist, I feel its a separate issue - but his/her story in general. In that sense, if the Warden was voiced and Hawke was silent, I'd still care more about Hawke's story.

The Warden did the video game thing where he saved the world from the big bad and helped preserve the status quo. He made some big calls along the way sure, but rarely (never in some cases, depending on your Origin-to-plot-flag relationship) anything that had personally to do with him.

Hawke is more interesting to me because, at least in my game, he failed utterly in his goals. He tried to maintain the status quo but was overcome by events. The story of DA2 raises my Hawke up and then breaks him.  I'd kind of like for him to have the opportunity to pick him back up off the ground again.  

That's just a more interesting plot thread to pick up (hypothetically) than the one I had with my Warden, who was more of a reluctant hero forced into being everyone's savior and kind of feels trapped into a life he never wanted.  Being a Warden is not a fun or rewarding existence for him, just the one he believes the Maker has chosen for him, so he dutifully does what he can.

But that's... kind of off topic, isn't it?  My personal rantings about my personal protagonists' stories.

Regardless, it's interesting to think about. 

[Rafficus III]

Looking back on all of it, I can't really argue with Gaider on how the endings were dished out. I agree with some of the viewpoints addressed as to why the former protagonists had to fade away for progression in future games. RPG's can sometimes be a double edged sword because of the amount of choice creating several different and plausible endings which can couple with people not wanting to leave the story behind; which is seen in both DA games to an extent. Honestly, Gaider and the staff should take it as a compliment that fans are that enthralled in their stories and characters. I did want more closure to Hawke, because he just simply left, but looking back he left with his LI and his companions went their respective ways in due time rather than dropping off with no mention at the end. So with that, I say keep up the good work. On a side note, I would like to know what happened to DA2 squad mates at some point in DA3.

[Fawx9]

David Gaider wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...
But with DA:2 you changed that to where something came up and now players are left wondering what that something is.

Excellent. That is, however, a new story.

And I'm guessing its still up in the air if that story is ever going to be big enough for a full game or rather something that simply gets mentioned in another character's adventures?

If its the later, all I ask is that it somehow resembles the choice we made for our warden back in DA:O. Last thing I want to find out is that my warden left everyone and was later found in a roadside ditch, or that whatever companions he abandoned were never able to find them and spent their life searching.

[JamieCOTC]

I thought that in DA:O we got great closure for either option. Either s/he died in the ultimate sacrifice or became the Hero of Fereldon. At the end of the game, the Warden has a destination. We don't need to see that story, but it is there. In Witch Hunt, the Warden who goes off w/ Morrigan also gets that destination. Again, we don't need to see it, but we know it is there. The other side of it is Awakening and a Witch Hunt w/ a Warden who does not romance Morrigan, they have no destination. Both just wander off screen w/ no destination and so the endings feel empty.

DA2 is a little more complicated as Hawke does get a destination depending on the choice the player makes. I prefer the Mage ending as we see Hake and Co. actually leave the city. There is a distinct feeling that Hawke just says, "to hell w/ this place" and leaves. I thought that was very well done, actually both in presentation and in the narrative. The presentation of the Templar choice was great, but "Fortune's change?" I don't buy it. But then we get back to Varric, Cassandra and Leliana and it just ends. Instead of, "Oh, I want to know what happens in the next game" I get this very empty, "What the hell just happened?"

Bringing this in w/ DA3, I'm not sure I want to chance putting in my time and money into another game that is going to give me that same empty feeling. Just my 2 cents.

[Blastback]

David Gaider wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...
But with DA:2 you changed that to where something came up and now players are left wondering what that something is.

Excellent.

Not really.  Honestly, as long as I'm having to wonder about what happened to my previous characters I just can't bring myself to become intrested in a new one.  It feels kind of pointless, like oh yay, another character whom I get to invest in only to have my control yanked away and them sent off to who knows what.

Please, for what it's worth, let the Warden get to stay in the sunset until the Calling.  Between Revan, the Exile, and now Shepard, I've had all the grim endings to characters I care about that i can take.

JamieCOTC wrote...

I thought that in DA:O we got great
closure for either option. Either s/he died in the ultimate sacrifice
or became the Hero of Fereldon. At the end of the game, the Warden has a
destination. We don't need to see that story, but it is there. In Witch
Hunt, the Warden who goes off w/ Morrigan also gets that destination.
Again, we don't need to see it, but we know it is there. The other side
of it is Awakening and a Witch Hunt w/ a Warden who does not romance
Morrigan, they have no destination. Both just wander off screen w/ no
destination and so the endings feel empty.

DA2 is a little more
complicated as Hawke does get a destination depending on the choice the
player makes. I prefer the Mage ending as we see Hake and Co. actually
leave the city. There is a distinct feeling that Hawke just says, "to
hell w/ this place" and leaves. I thought that was very well done,
actually both in presentation and in the narrative. The presentation of
the Templar choice was great, but "Fortune's change?" I don't buy it.
But then we get back to Varric, Cassandra and Leliana and it just ends.
Instead of, "Oh, I want to know what happens in the next game" I get
this very empty, "What the hell just happened?"

Bringing this
in w/ DA3, I'm not sure I want to chance putting in my time and money
into another game that is going to give me that same empty feeling. Just
my 2 cents.

Yes.

Modifié par Blastback, 21 septembre 2012 - 06:43 .

[Alexander1136]

David Gaider wrote...

b09boy wrote...
If you want to do multiple protagonists then give the existing ones closure.  The stream of cliffhangers is nothing less than extremely annoying and very much detracts from individual stories.  It also makes it difficult to accept further protagonists when it feels we're backlogged and finishing prior protagonists.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to categorically disagree with you there.

The existence of unresolved plot threads is not a "cliffhanger". That is an abuse of the term (much like "cliche", "retcon" or "Mary Sure" in just about any Internet forum). A cliffhanger is when the central conflict of a story is not resolved. DAO would have been a cliffhanger if the story had ended en route to Denerim for the final battle.

You left wondering what happened to your Warden if you entered the Eluvian with Morrigan is more about closure... but that's another term that people like to invoke a bit too freely. An amiguous ending-- "walking off into the sunset"-- is often something that is done deliberately to allow the player to imagine where they went and what they did. Some people claim, however, that they will not ever get proper closure so long as there's still something they imagine their hero doing. They want to know what happened to them and Alistair, how they ruled Ferelden, where they went with Morrigan... if there's even a hint that it might have been something exciting, they consider that an unfinished story rather than a brand-new one.

But it would be a brand-new story, as the previous one was indeed resolved. The conflict ended, even if a new one began. The idea that we would have to either kill the hero or effectively kill all interest in their future in order to provide real closure is a bit ludicrous.

As for the territoriality involved in that character, as in the player feeling the character is "theirs" even if they've moved onto a new story and a new protagonist, that's probably inevitable. Short of skipping to another side of the world or another time, there's bound to be some contravention of headcanon ("I didn't imagine MY character doing THAT!"). Generally the rule is that we'll approach any use of the previous PC much more carefully than characters around the PC (like, say, Alistair or Morrigan). Inevitably it's possible we'll contravene the player's headcanon no matter what, and that's a possibility that exists the moment you stop playing the character, but we'll do our best to steer around it whenever we can.

Thank you for stating that. I often wonder "how much more closure do you need? you walked through the damn portal, chirst!"  I'd definatley prefer  it remained untouched and that was the end to it. As for the Alstair thing, well i didn't do that one so I can say. 

[AndrahilAdrian]

I feel like you make a good case for the warden, David, but Hawke's story isn't over yet. He clearly still has a role to play; cassandra said he was "the only one who can [stop the mage templar war], and the plot of her looking for him remains very much unresolved. It seems his story was going to be tied off in the expansion pack to DA2, but since that got cancelled it would be nice if his story got resolved in DA2. The warden's story is over; he stopped the blight, and now he's in "where are they now" territory. Hawke's story isn't; he started this war, surely he has a part to play in its resolution. At the very least it would be nice to know what happened to him.

[Jerrybnsn]

Hawke fled. Did anybody confuse that with anything else? What's he going to do if you bring him/her back? Flee some more?

[Get Magna Carter]

David Gaider wrote...

b09boy wrote...
If you want to do multiple protagonists then give the existing ones closure.  The stream of cliffhangers is nothing less than extremely annoying and very much detracts from individual stories.  It also makes it difficult to accept further protagonists when it feels we're backlogged and finishing prior protagonists.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to categorically disagree with you there.

The existence of unresolved plot threads is not a "cliffhanger". That is an abuse of the term (much like "cliche", "retcon" or "Mary Sure" in just about any Internet forum). A cliffhanger is when the central conflict of a story is not resolved. DAO would have been a cliffhanger if the story had ended en route to Denerim for the final battle.

I thought there was more to a cliffhanger than that.
I thought it needs to end on a dramatic moment - typically representing imminent danger, combined with the intent to resolve that dramatic moment in a continuation of what happened immediately afterwards. e.g man hanging from a cliff in danger of falling ...his fingers start to slip..to be continued.

joining Morrigan through the mirror COULD have just qualified but ONLY if there was an intent for a follow-up showing what happened through the mirror (and may also have needed a hint of something dangerous waiting for them)- there has never been any evidence of such intent (especially as it was possible to not go with Morrigan) so it doesn't count

Dragon Age 2 ended with mysteries but there was no evidence of anyone specific in apparant danger (Hawke being "gone" is too vague to be identified as danger) and no imminent dramatic revelations - not a cliffhanger

very few games end on a cliffhanger  Dreamfall comes to mind as one of the few which probably qualifies

(best cliffhanger in a game was on the disc change inStar Ocean 2nd story -where the planet the heroes are on apparantly blows up and you need to switch to the second disc to find out if and how they survive)

[SafetyShattered]

David Gaider wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
So why did you suddenly go "Warden's gone" at the end of DA2? 

What purpose did that achieve except to toss out any headcanon the player might have had, and to create the, apparently, false expectation that there was going to be something more to their story?

Why is that a false expectation? Obviously it's a plot thread we intend to play with. It's not going to be with you playing as the Warden, however -- ultimately that character is ours now, and while we'll tread as carefully as we can, the fact remains that new plots may use them in some capacity.

Contravention of headcanon is always a possibility whenever a sequel's involved. Gosh, I can't imagine the gnashing of teeth that would have occurred if we had used the Warden as the protagonist in DA2 and had something happen to them that they didn't imagine in their head-- like Leliana being alive. Oh noes! On that point, I'm afraid we will simply have to invoke authorial prerogative. Sorry. Hope it all makes sense once you see it play out, and thus eases your concern... but I can't promise that'll be the case.

Thank you very much David for taking the time to explain these things to us. But I have to admit this scares me a bit. What was the point of giving us the warden and the ability to do whatever we wanted with him if your just gonna take him back then change those decisions? Does that mean that choices we make in DA3 for our character won't matter for DA4? I'm not really mad. I mean it's been years since I've played DAO, and truthfully I don't remember much about it. So if you did do that for DAO it wouldn't really bother me(unless you did something major, like no longer making Leliana his LI.....seriously..don't do that...I beg you) that much.  But I hope that's not the trend for the other DA games.

Anyway...that aside I'm very excited for DA3 and good luck David.

Modifié par Shadowfang12, 21 septembre 2012 - 09:11 .

[RinuCZ]

Nothing, nothing beats Dreamfall on the field of cliffhangers .

[SafetyShattered]

philippe willaume wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
So why did you suddenly go "Warden's gone" at the end of DA2? 

What purpose did that achieve except to toss out any headcanon the player might have had, and to create the, apparently, false expectation that there was going to be something more to their story?

Why is that a false expectation? Obviously it's a plot thread we intend to play with. It's not going to be with you playing as the Warden, however -- ultimately that character is ours now, and while we'll tread as carefully as we can, the fact remains that new plots may use them in some capacity.

Contravention of headcanon is always a possibility whenever a sequel's involved. Gosh, I can't imagine the gnashing of teeth that would have occurred if we had used the Warden as the protagonist in DA2 and had something happen to them that they didn't imagine in their head-- like Leliana being alive. Oh noes! On that point, I'm afraid we will simply have to invoke authorial prerogative. Sorry. Hope it all makes sense once you see it play out, and thus eases your concern... but I can't promise that'll be the case.

that is all good,  as you said like Shepard they are you char and It is you story to tell.
Just pretty please with a cherry on the top, i swear i will come to clean your offices for a week, make you proper pancake amd even publicly admint  on all HEMA forum that Rapier is perfectly sound weapon much better than longsword. I beg you on my knee tell us the story don't make us guess. 

Phil

Same here....well except for the rapier is better then the longsword part. That just foolishness.

[FieryDove]

I think DA2 would have been better without the cliffhanger cutscene. I'm guessing the expansion was going to do something with it?

2:35 (spoilers - da2 ending)



That part so and so go *poof* was a cliffhanger in my mind. If that part had not been there I would have just thought Hawke was running around somewhere along with his/her epic counterpart.

I dislike cliffhangers very much. Oh well.

[Get Magna Carter]

I thought the main Origins had a good selection of endings with the warden dying, achieving a position of power or heading off towards new adventures.
These more or less reflect the classic endings (except that only human nobles could go for the marriage ending)

Dragon Age 2 wasn't so good..in my case Hawke got run out of the city (for refusing to side with Meredith's unjust demands, executing the real guilty party instead) and, after 3 years of roaming around doing "stuff" (of course she was travelling with Isabella so probably spent a lot of time in her cabin...), mysteriously vanishes

[Funkjoker]

I fully agree with what Brockololly said.

Blastback wrote...

Not really.  Honestly, as long as I'm having to wonder about what happened to my previous characters I just can't bring myself to become intrested in a new one.  It feels kind of pointless, like oh yay, another character whom I get to invest in only to have my control yanked away and them sent off to who knows what.

Please, for what it's worth, let the Warden get to stay in the sunset until the Calling.  Between Revan, the Exile, and now Shepard, I've had all the grim endings to characters I care about that i can take.

Exactly. There was supposed to be 2-year-dlc-policy for DAO. It barely held a year before it was cut off. Change in major staff regarding DAO. There are now people responsible who have not the vision the original creators had.

As said before, Witch Hunt could have been a fully fledged expansion dealing with M and the OGB. After some kind of closure for -every- warden, I'd be happy to tackle on to a new protagonist.

Writing off Revan, the Hero of the first NWN, Warden, Hawke without proper closure is a sign to me that BioWare doesn't want to write proper closures anymore - they barely do anything with them after the main story ends and although the epilogues always tend to say: "yay, more adventures for ya", we actually don't get anything at all.

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 21 septembre 2012 - 10:23 .

[Inujade]

I'm finding this discussion very interesting!

David, I'm really relieved that the disappearing Warden is a plot-thread you intend to play with and not a hand-wave for why they're not involved. For me at least, the concern about the Warden was never about 'finishing their story' (like you said, a new story with the Warden would be just that...NEW. I would welcome such a thing, but that doesn't mean it's narratively required), but that making sure their impact is felt.

(what follows is just my personal interpretation)

The Warden didn't just save the world...at it's core, DAO was a story about a set of characters, and their personal struggles and sacrifices (and that's what stops it from being a mere 'beat the big bad' plot). The Warden had a HUGE impact on the people around them; Morrigan may have learned about friendship, Alistair may have finally found someone who cares for him unconditionally, Zevran may have forgiven himself for what happened to Rinna, etc.

Now, if I headcanon that my Warden had triplets with Sten after Witch Hunt, I obviously don't expect that to be represented. If you decide that my Warden has gone to Weisshaupt, when maybe that's not what I envisioned...then I'll change my vision. No big deal, at least for me.

But I do hope that by 'treading lightly' you mean that the status of their relationships with various characters be honoured. If she shows up, I'd like Morrigan to know she had a 'sister' once. And while their love story can obviously not be a real 'plot,' Alistair still better be in love with his wife, and provide a reason why they're separated (or just be sad that she's gone) if a conversation with him lasts longer than three minutes.

I guess what I mean to say is, while it's certainly your prerogative to send the Warden on unseen adventures without our knowledge, I think changing the relationships behind the scenes would be a little unfair, since therein lies the essence of 'our' characters. I hope that's food for thought.

[nightscrawl]

David Gaider wrote...

An amiguous ending-- "walking off into the sunset"-- is often something that is done deliberately to allow the player to imagine where they went and what they did.

This reminds me of the film The Negotiator. During the movie, Samuel L. Jackson (hostage taker) and Kevin Spacey (police negotiator) have a conversation about the end of the movie Shane. At the end of that movie, Shane goes "off into the sunset" on his horse after being injured. Spacey says that Shane is dead, Jackson maintains that he was not since you didn't see him die: "Slumped means slumped. Slumped don't mean dead." This reminds me of that conversation.

Unfortunately, you guys set a precedent for yourselves with the epilogue slides in DAO and DAA, which not only were not included in DA2 (or in Witch Hunt) but was made worse by Varric as the "unreliable narrator" and by Cassandra's comment that the Warden is "gone." People are still still struggling with that difference between the two games.

David Gaider wrote...

Excellent.

You forgot .

;D

Modifié par nightscrawl, 22 septembre 2012 - 04:24 .

[Maclimes]

nightscrawl wrote...
You forgot .

No, that's Priestly's emoticon.

[nightscrawl]

Maclimes wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...
You forgot .

No, that's Priestly's emoticon.

Well I would have made a Mr. Burns reference, but I was wary of not everyone getting it.