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Is bioware really done with the warden and hawke?


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#351
TEWR

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David Gaider wrote...

ultimately that character is ours now, and while we'll tread as carefully as we can, the fact remains that new plots may use them in some capacity.


Oh God... Xanthos Aeducan is ruined.

Though I can't see why you can't just have multiple segments in a game that allows us to switch perspectives in regards to who is the PC. Like Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn did.

One chapter you'd play as Ike and his forces, the next you'd play as Micaiah and her forces, and so on and so forth.

So why can't we temporarily resume control of our protagonists for whatever they're doing?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 septembre 2012 - 06:49 .


#352
Funkjoker

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So why can't we temporarily resume control of our protagonists for whatever they're doing?


This would distract new players, as they would have no connection to previous characters. This is of course inacceptable, as they could lose interest. ( <_< )

But this is a nice idea! Making it possible for imported playthrough to play as their charas again! If correctly done I'd like it if it's not made too short.

#353
Jerrybnsn

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Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So why can't we temporarily resume control of our protagonists for whatever they're doing?


This would distract new players, as they would have no connection to previous characters. This is of course inacceptable, as they could lose interest. ( <_< )

.


I think it would be a plot thread picked up of an imported warden only if an import flagged allowed.  The plot thread could just as easily be the Orleasian Warden from Awakenings to which the new player would receive not much less background to this playable protagonist as someone who actually played Awakenings.

Of course, what am I saying?  David already stated several times that we won't be playing Wardens or Hawkes anymore, and if they do come back they'll be NPCs controlled by the Bioware devs.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 22 septembre 2012 - 09:49 .


#354
Estelindis

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David Gaider wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
So why did you suddenly go "Warden's gone" at the end of DA2? 

What purpose did that achieve except to toss out any headcanon the player might have had, and to create the, apparently, false expectation that there was going to be something more to their story?


Why is that a false expectation? Obviously it's a plot thread we intend to play with. It's not going to be with you playing as the Warden, however -- ultimately that character is ours now, and while we'll tread as carefully as we can, the fact remains that new plots may use them in some capacity.

You only "may" use them in some capacity?  I would hope that for a price as significant as taking away closure from players you would have a certain payoff in mind and know for sure that you're going to use the Warden again.  

I mean, I've run a lot of tabletop games, so I do know that sometimes the plot takes an unexpected direction because of an unanticipation action or reaction of the players - or simply because with the benefit of time I've thought of something better than what I'd originally envisaged - but you're not just writing an adventure, you're writing a world.  In order for things to hold together, I would have imagined you'd laid down a certain number of things in advance, such as what the Warden's role would be (assuming it is crucial enough to justify using the Warden at all).  

Of course, it's possible that you do know all this and you just can't tell us yet.  I mean, saying anything for certain would probably be picked apart by the forums and news sites.  It would also take away the surprise from seeing the Warden again.

Modifié par Estelindis, 22 septembre 2012 - 11:24 .


#355
cindercatz

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I actually see my former PCs as NPCs anyway, just the most important NPCs in the franchise. The Warden should have shown up in DA2, for instance, any time that he or she would have otherwise shown up, and not otherwise.

There's no reason a Dwarven Noble Paragon of Orzammar should show up, or a Mage warden who was currently off with Morrigan, but if your warden is Human Noble King of Ferelden, they should have shown up either with or instead of their wife, and if queen then with or instead of Alistair. Alistair the drunk, on the other hand, while funny sure, isn't really an important story moment. If your warden was off with Leliana, they should have shown up during one of her scenes. My Cousland warden was both married to Anora and took Leliana as consort. Why couldn't I see him with both of them in two scenes, or at least in one scene with an extra mention in the other? If your warden was off with Zevran, they should have shown up with Zevran, and so on. If Morrigan shows up in DA3, a mage warden eluvian lover should be stepping right out beside her.

Because there was a clear direction after either DA:O, DA:A, or Witch Hunt, we should kind of know where all of our wardens are, and where a character in that situation would organically appear. That's where they should be, which going by the cameo model would be no more than once or twice in a game where they would naturally fit. If your warden then doesn't show up, because they're not a natural insert to whatever story, then those scenes would still take place without the warden, and your warden might show up in the next game when it makes more sense for them to be there. Hawkes are the same way but simpler. Just have them show up with their LI if their LI would otherwise appear, or tie them to a major mage or templar if they picked one side or the other with no LI.

Basically the warden is a set of six NPCs who can be in twelve or twenty places, whatever, but just because one of those possible NPCs makes sense to appear doesn't mean all of them have to. Just, they're more important with their companion pieces to the player, so if their companion or primary setting would appear somewhere, go ahead and have them appear, rather than just talking about them or dropping a codex. Those are nice and all, but they really just make me want to see my character again. It feels like they're off in the world, but all of a sudden they're being swept aside and not important anymore, when to me as a player, they're the most important NPC characters alive in the world.

With the disappearance now, it's as if all of our directions we gave to all of our wardens and Hawkes are suddenly pigeon holed, and we never once got to see our warden off doing whatever it is we set them out to do. I'm looking forward to whatever comes after that (assuming we get to see and hear and edit our wardens again, not some off mention in shadow or whatever), but I'd also like to be able to see and hear and speak to or even battle my wardens wherever it is I put them, if those times and places are at all represented in the game, or any future game. If we visit Denerim early, a Ferelden monarch warden should be there. If we visit Orzammar early, a dwarf paragon warden should be there. If we encounter some significant Dalish tribe, there's no reason a Dalish warden shouldn't be able to be there with them. If our Warden or Hawke LI would appear for any cameo, then bring the LI PC next to them in the scene.

That way, no matter what happens, our characters are still following the direction we set for them, and we can still influence them like any other NPC by interacting with them. I'd be more than satisfied with that. I'd be thrilled. I don't need to actively control my past PCs. I don't really need to decide which line they speak, as the epilogues basically tell us already, along with prior choices, what kind of line should be read back to any given situation. It would be excellent if we could control the convo wheel for both the Inquisitor and any significant choice the Warden or Hawke makes in any conversation between them if we're playing off a DA:O/DA2 import. Not necessary, but cool. Like I said earlier in the thread, in DA, I don't play a particular character, I play a league of them.

Either way, we get to continue to have some influence with our former characters, if they're alive in the world, and we get the oppurtunity to see what they're up to. I just don't want them swept aside into narrative ambivalence when they should be active players, is all. It's not their story, but they shouldn't be unseen, unheard footnotes either, unless somebody chooses not to import, edit them, or choose a preset.

Last thing, please don't ever choose a canon for the events we've been allowed to set in the game. Y'know, don't ever say Alistair is king for all future games or anything crazy like that. That would basically cancel all our player defined worlds, which is one of those tentpole things that sets DA apart from everything else on the market. The origin enriched player characters, the world persistance, and the ability to play truely from multiple perspectives are what set Dragon Age apart from just any old fantasy adventure franchise.

Every time I see somebody on here suggest setting a canon, I cringe.

Modifié par cindercatz, 22 septembre 2012 - 12:14 .


#356
Icesong

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It's not going to be with you playing as the Warden, however --
ultimately that character is ours now


Sincerely and with respect, why is this attitude adopted? The Warden is mine. It's disheartening to hear any claims of ownership to a character you don't even know. I bring the name up like Hitler in these threads but, sorry, look at what happened to Revan. Is BW even regretful about that?

One of the benefits of different protagonists for each game in a series is that you don't have to feature the old protagonists; especially when you set the games in different areas and time periods. If references to previous player characters need to be made then have them come from rumors and similar unreliable sources. Obvious example: the Nerevarine was said to have journeyed to Akavir. If you like that, use it. If you don't, you have plenty of room to doubt it. To have to hear it from your character's LI is much harder to explain away, but I certainly try. 

If it's a lost cause and "the Warden" simply must be featured then, just so you know what I like and can possibly satisfy me, my main annoyance with disappearance is that the length of time doesn't tend to be realistically considered. Years of a character's life are tossed out as if they're nothing. Our Wardens, especially, are on a shorter clock. Or are they? Either way, age is ticking if nothing else. The end of DA2 and the disappearance line was 7 years after Witch Hunt and 9 after DAO, I believe. The best case scenario for forestalling the Warden's disappearance is pegging it around 9:37 at the earliest(saying you're expected in Denerim) and 9:40 at the latest(when it's stated). Worst case is Witch Hunt. I don't know when DA3 will be but that's potentially seven years or more. Please don't treat this trivially is all I'm saying.

Leliana was mid 20s, possibly nearing 30 or perhaps even over during DAO. I don't want her to be mid 40s by time my Warden reunites with her.

Modifié par Icesong, 22 septembre 2012 - 01:21 .


#357
dsl08002

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another thing is that when Leliana says in the end of DA2 is that its no coincidence that both the warden and hawke is gone.

more importently is that in most of my playthroughs with my male warden she is my LI.

she has more reasons to search for the warden than anyone.

#358
jackofalltrades456

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Sigh.

I'm really starting to wish they'd retcon that whole statement of the Warden going missing, since you could tell it really wasn't well thought out to begin with. The whole Orlaisan Warden being the one Cassandra mentions was just them throwing out excuses, since I could even recall one of the devs (Gaider, I think) saying that by gone, she could mean dead when speaking of a dead warden.

A physical cameo would be too difficult to do properly. I'm hoping that they'll give us an off-screen cameo through a text epilogue. I think would be the best compromise for those who felt their warden didn't receive proper closure, yet are afraid that he\\she would get messed up with a physical appearance.

#359
Jerrybnsn

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I'm really curious as to what these "head canon" wardens are like in all of these posters' minds. Unfortunately, the only place to put that is in the dusted, cobwebbed infested Origins forum were no one visits in ages. Except the occasional "How do I get both Morrigan and Leliana" thread. .

I'll write that as soon as I can properly word my question. It's harder than I thought it would be.

"Describe Your Warden Head Cannon''

"Do You have a Warden Head Cannon"?

"Let's All Desrcibe our Warden Head Cannons!"

"Show me your Warden Head Cannon"

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:27 .


#360
Genetic13

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Physical appearance would bug me, but I kind of liked the stock Warden's look in all the DA:O CG
promos. So I'd be ok with that for the most part. I would just want all of my choices from DA:O to be reflected. (I.E. Running off with Morrigan through the Eluvian, or choosing Leliana as my LI instead since I did both paths.)

While I would like to see my Warden return to Leliana's side at some point (she's my favorite LI so far :P), I could deal with that story being done (I'd just be bitter about it). The stuff between Morrigan and my Warden is not, IMO, finished at all. I want to know what was on the other side of the Eluvian, what we are doing/did when we got there, what is up with the child, and so forth. Head canon is all well and good, but I want something more than what is in my head.

#361
Renmiri1

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First time I heard it I thought they meant Anders. He was a Warden and would make sense him and Hawke missing

#362
jackofalltrades456

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Genetic13 wrote...

While I would like to see my Warden return to Leliana's side at some point (she's my favorite LI so far :P), I could deal with that story being done (I'd just be bitter about it). The stuff between Morrigan and my Warden is not, IMO, finished at all. I want to know what was on the other side of the Eluvian, what we are doing/did when we got there, what is up with the child, and so forth. Head canon is all well and good, but I want something more than what is in my head.


It's the exact opposite for me. Leliana's romance with the Warden felt unconcluded, while Morrigan's romance seemed finished. Unless you got the slide where she killed herself after the Warden's death (although it was retcon anyway), it was just "travels by the Warden's side for a bit, leaves them to return to the Chantry,  then she announces that Warden vanished. I mean wtf happened with that? Even Zevran had more closure to his romance with the whole battling the Antivan Crows bit.

Morrigan's romance on the other hand felt concluded with the Witch Hunt DLC. The Warden was able to reunite with his loved one, meet his child, and travel with them to the great beyond. It was finished and there was nothing left to explain for me.

Modifié par jackofalltrades456, 22 septembre 2012 - 04:36 .


#363
Augustei

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Jerrybnsn wrote...
It wasn't unti they announced a new protagonist
for DA2 did we hear that the Dragon Age series was just about the world
of Thedas and not allow importing succesive characters.

That
makes it nothing more than a MMO world designed for a single player
experience.  Each game is nothing really more than a stand alone
experience such as what the Final Fantasy series is.  Considering
Bioware's legacy, it has surprise me that they would go with such a
limiting standard. 

I too was under the impression that the
Dragon Age series was going to be an epic saga connected by the
characters and events experience.  Just like the high fantasy sagas that
I read when I was younger.  But in a video game, I wouldn't be just
reading it, I was actually participating in it and help shaping that
world of Dragon Age.  I think  what all sagas have is that something
keeps all the series connected by characters, and mostly a single hero.


I take it ASOIAF was not one of those books you read as a child..

#364
Jerrybnsn

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XxDeonxX wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...
It wasn't unti they announced a new protagonist
for DA2 did we hear that the Dragon Age series was just about the world
of Thedas and not allow importing succesive characters.

I too was under the impression that the
Dragon Age series was going to be an epic saga connected by the
characters and events experience.  Just like the high fantasy sagas that
I read when I was younger.  But in a video game, I wouldn't be just
reading it, I was actually participating in it and help shaping that
world of Dragon Age.  I think  what all sagas have is that something
keeps all the series connected by characters, and mostly a single hero.


I take it ASOIAF was not one of those books you read as a child..


The two High Fantasy series that I read when I was a kid was Piers Anthony's Xanth and David Eddings The Belgeriad Saga.

http://t0.gstatic.co..._               http://t3.gstatic.co...SYoFDNUhWvadxDg

#365
Icesong

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jackofalltrades456 wrote...

Genetic13 wrote...

While I would like to see my Warden return to Leliana's side at some point (she's my favorite LI so far :P), I could deal with that story being done (I'd just be bitter about it). The stuff between Morrigan and my Warden is not, IMO, finished at all. I want to know what was on the other side of the Eluvian, what we are doing/did when we got there, what is up with the child, and so forth. Head canon is all well and good, but I want something more than what is in my head.


It's the exact opposite for me. Leliana's romance with the Warden felt unconcluded, while Morrigan's romance seemed finished. Unless you got the slide where she killed herself after the Warden's death (although it was retcon anyway), it was just "travels by the Warden's side for a bit, leaves them to return to the Chantry,  then she announces that Warden vanished. I mean wtf happened with that?


Leliana leaving if you travel does sound bad but my Warden just stayed in Denerim and Leliana as well. Which is exactly what I want. That she showed up doing secret agent stuff for the Divine didn't bother me as I assumed she still came back to Denerim, but the disappearing bit soured everything.

I take it ASOIAF was not one of those books you read as a child..


If you read A Song of Ice and Fire as a kid then you probably still are one.

Modifié par Icesong, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:46 .


#366
cindercatz

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jackofalltrades456 wrote...

A physical cameo would be too difficult to do properly. I'm hoping that they'll give us an off-screen cameo through a text epilogue. I think would be the best compromise for those who felt their warden didn't receive proper closure, yet are afraid that heshe would get messed up with a physical appearance.


I really want physical cameos, the whole bit. They've got my import data, even uploaded Wardens for that matter, if it needs to be tweaked over for the new engine. So just import, provide a few default looks for people that don't care what their wardens look like, and let the rest of us tweak our characters in the new engine. I love editing characters, so it'd be a few hours (for six wardens) of extra fun for me. I consider the ability to design and upgrade more characters in the game a plus.

#367
Jerrybnsn

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XxDeonxX wrote...


I take it ASOIAF was not one of those books you read as a child..


 Icesong wrote...

If you read A Song of Ice and Fire as a kid then you probably still are one.


Or, it means you and I are getting pretty old.  The first book did come out sixteen years ago.Image IPB

edit: fixed quotes.  Sorry JackofalltradesImage IPB

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 22 septembre 2012 - 06:16 .


#368
Fallstar

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

ultimately that character is ours now, and while we'll tread as carefully as we can, the fact remains that new plots may use them in some capacity.


Oh God... Xanthos Aeducan is ruined.

Though I can't see why you can't just have multiple segments in a game that allows us to switch perspectives in regards to who is the PC. Like Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn did.

One chapter you'd play as Ike and his forces, the next you'd play as Micaiah and her forces, and so on and so forth.

So why can't we temporarily resume control of our protagonists for whatever they're doing?


This is a fantastic idea. Hell, you've already done something similar in DA2 with Varric's exaggerated assault on his brother's mansion. A short playable quest as the Warden would be a nice change of pace, perhaps to show how events are evolving in another location like you did with the Denerim cutscenes in Origins.

I don't think it'd really put new players off. Multiple protagonist games are hardly rare. If a new player can get to grips with the world of DA, I don't think they'll have a problem spending a brief amount of time as another character. As that player hasn't played Origins, it might be a good way of showing them what the Wardens are about too.

#369
jackofalltrades456

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Jerrybnsn wrote...

jackofalltrades456 wrote...

If you read A Song of Ice and Fire as a kid then you probably still are one.


Or, it means you and I are getting pretty old.  The first book did come out sixteen years ago.Image IPB


Uhhh... wrong person?:whistle:

#370
0Sion0

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I, for one, welcome our new (Inquisitor?) protagonist... overlord.

#371
Jerrybnsn

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0Sion0 wrote...

I, for one, welcome our new (Inquisitor?) protagonist... overlord.


http://t0.gstatic.co...Jsrk-ZAhtx4zn3B

#372
unbentbuzzkill

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the only problem i see is if they introduce a new protaganist which they probably will they are leaving alot of stories half done. Or they brush aside what they did in the game before like it wasn't a major decision, I mean for christ sakes in witch hunt morrigan warns you about flementh in witch hunt but she's just a foot note in DA2 to have a successful ending to most of the open stories they can't be done with the warden or hawke DA:A hints at the warden's eventual return.

#373
Jerrybnsn

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unbentbuzzkill wrote...

I mean for christ sakes in witch hunt morrigan warns you about flementh in witch hunt but she's just a foot note in DA2 to have a successful ending to most of the open stories they can't be done with the warden or hawke DA:A hints at the warden's eventual return.


I agree.  DA2 was also a major letdown for more reasons than just reused maps.  It really didn't connect with the previous game or what Morrigan alluded to in WitchHunt.  They could of done DA2's storyline in an expansion with a different team working on it, rather trying to stretch it out in a longer game.  It was more of a spinoff than a sequel.   I feel we lost two years of production time for the whole bigger storyline. Hopefully DA3 will right the ship.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 22 septembre 2012 - 06:30 .


#374
KENNY4753

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I understand that BW wants to move forward with a new PC for everygame but I would love to see more of my Warden. A good cameo would be great.

The mystery of the Warden and Hawke's disappearances should be addressed in DA3, whether we get them in a cameo or not.

#375
unbentbuzzkill

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the perfect solution would be to play the game through multiple perspectives the warden hawke and whoever the new protaganist is but honestly i'm kinda tired of switching heros every single game i'll put up with it one more time as long as it actually adds to the story, but after that if they make a DA4 i'm just gonna say f""" it and give up on dragon age.