486 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

If I may be honest, I don't like the "new protagonist every game" schtick. It was okay for me and DA2 because as far as I was concerned, my Warden's story was finished (for the time) with Witch Hunt (going through the eluvian with Morrigan). I also knew before buying it that DA2 wasn't a direct sequel to DAO.

[Genetic13]

jackofalltrades456 wrote...

Genetic13 wrote...

While I would like to see my Warden return to Leliana's side at some point (she's my favorite LI so far ), I could deal with that story being done (I'd just be bitter about it). The stuff between Morrigan and my Warden is not, IMO, finished at all. I want to know what was on the other side of the Eluvian, what we are doing/did when we got there, what is up with the child, and so forth. Head canon is all well and good, but I want something more than what is in my head.

It's the exact opposite for me. Leliana's romance with the Warden felt unconcluded, while Morrigan's romance seemed finished. Unless you got the slide where she killed herself after the Warden's death (although it was retcon anyway), it was just "travels by the Warden's side for a bit, leaves them to return to the Chantry,  then she announces that Warden vanished. I mean wtf happened with that? Even Zevran had more closure to his romance with the whole battling the Antivan Crows bit.

Morrigan's romance on the other hand felt concluded with the Witch Hunt DLC. The Warden was able to reunite with his loved one, meet his child, and travel with them to the great beyond. It was finished and there was nothing left to explain for me.

Yeah, I can see that. It's also something I'd like to see addressed if you chose her as a LI instead of Morrigan. WHY did she go back to the Chantry? Why didn't you go with her? Why aren't you with her at the end of DA2? Clear she still holds the Waden (or at least the memory of the Warden) close to her in DA2 if she was your LI in DA:O. According to her dialogue, anyway.

I guess my main problem is they touted DA:O as the spiritual successor to the BG series, but the direction they are going is more NWN. Which is fine, except for two problems:

Baldur's Gate used the same PC. Either imported from BG1 to BG2 or created from scratch, you were still the Chid of Baal. This made using the same companions (or in DA2's case having them appear as NPCs) make more since. They even killed some to make way for new companions. The reason *I* feel this didn't work in DA2 is because you had a NEW PC, and potential LI's showed up (fine) and at the end you find out, oh PC from DA:O just up and disappeared. I'm sorry, what? For those who went thru the Eluvian with Morrigan, that's fine. I know HOW and WHY he disappeared, but everyone else with a living Warden? Does. Not. Work. I'm fine seeing another PC's LI in a new game, as long as you acknowledge that previous relationship (if you intend on importing saves).

The second problem I have is, ok, I get that the Dragon Age and the events that occur during this time period are the focus for the series. However, it feels like we are rushing through the events. How long is the Dragon Age? 50 years? 100? 200? (I know this has been answered numerous times before). The blight was ended in reletively quickly (a year?). Then we spend a sped up 10 years in Kirkwall building up a character that just vanishes (apparently along with the first PC) in the end, who is basically the catalyst for the Mage/Templar/Chantry war.

You can say the big effect the Warden had on Thedas was ending the Blight in record time. Hawke's was his involvement in the begining of the war, but then why do they both MYSTERIOUSLY disapear in (presumably) the same manner. They SHOULD be major factors at this point in the timeline, instead of just being written off as, oh, we MAY use them as NPCs in a future game.

This is turning into more of a rant than I intended, so I'll just end it with this:

The games (up to this point) ARE tied together. Origins starts the same time as DA2, with Hawke and family fleeing the Blight, the Warden ending the Blight. DA2 ends with the start of the war, which leads into DA3. I feels wrong for the Warden and (even tho I didn't have much attachment to him) Hawke to just be written off.

Modifié par Genetic13, 22 septembre 2012 - 09:02 .

[Jerrybnsn]

o Ventus wrote...

If I may be honest, I don't like the "new protagonist every game" schtick. It was okay for me and DA2 because as far as I was concerned, my Warden's story was finished (for the time) with Witch Hunt (going through the eluvian with Morrigan). I also knew before buying it that DA2 wasn't a direct sequel to DAO.

 Without an apparent overarching story connecting the episodes of a series together, the one thing that would give continuity from game to game would be a single protagonist.   Or at least, make sure the protagonists passes the "baton", if you will, to the next protagonist.  A lot of us say closure was needed of the old protagonist before starting the new one.  That is because listening to Morrigan in WH say "Great change is coming, the world is in danger, the child has a destiny" and "Yes, come my love, I need your help"  or  "By the way, I have left something very important for you in that package"....and then end it at that point, isn't closure.

[unbentbuzzkill]

like i said before stories are going unfinished like they don't matter because truthfully it's all just moot if they write off DA:O and DA2 impact on the story, i mean really they could have just started off with the civil war if they just planned to have the warden and hawke just be cameo's or mindless npc's.

[Menagra]

David Gaider wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
So why did you suddenly go "Warden's gone" at the end of DA2? 

What purpose did that achieve except to toss out any headcanon the player might have had, and to create the, apparently, false expectation that there was going to be something more to their story?

Why is that a false expectation? Obviously it's a plot thread we intend to play with. It's not going to be with you playing as the Warden, however -- ultimately that character is ours now, and while we'll tread as carefully as we can, the fact remains that new plots may use them in some capacity.

Contravention of headcanon is always a possibility whenever a sequel's involved. Gosh, I can't imagine the gnashing of teeth that would have occurred if we had used the Warden as the protagonist in DA2 and had something happen to them that they didn't imagine in their head-- like Leliana being alive. Oh noes! On that point, I'm afraid we will simply have to invoke authorial prerogative. Sorry. Hope it all makes sense once you see it play out, and thus eases your concern... but I can't promise that'll be the case.

Is this the planned day one DLC? Is that what you are hinting?

because this would be me zooming to purchase as soon as it was available --->

Modifié par infraredman, 23 septembre 2012 - 12:01 .

[Last Vizard]

infraredman wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
So why did you suddenly go "Warden's gone" at the end of DA2? 

What purpose did that achieve except to toss out any headcanon the player might have had, and to create the, apparently, false expectation that there was going to be something more to their story?

Why is that a false expectation? Obviously it's a plot thread we intend to play with. It's not going to be with you playing as the Warden, however -- ultimately that character is ours now, and while we'll tread as carefully as we can, the fact remains that new plots may use them in some capacity.

Contravention of headcanon is always a possibility whenever a sequel's involved. Gosh, I can't imagine the gnashing of teeth that would have occurred if we had used the Warden as the protagonist in DA2 and had something happen to them that they didn't imagine in their head-- like Leliana being alive. Oh noes! On that point, I'm afraid we will simply have to invoke authorial prerogative. Sorry. Hope it all makes sense once you see it play out, and thus eases your concern... but I can't promise that'll be the case.

Is this the planned day one DLC? Is that what you are hinting?

because this would be me zooming to purchase as soon as it was available --->

I take it to mean that they wont appear in DA3 and that there'll be a reason for it, especially when he can't promise that it will ease Wulfram's concern.  I think they'll avoid the difficulties of working in all the multiple endings of DA:O into the story by just avoiding the Warden having much to do with DA3, cutting out Hawke is just the "might as well" decision so they can start from scratch with DA3 while the Warden, Hawke and their choices float around in one of those Kryptonian prisons in space somewhere.

Story wise it doesn't make sense for two powerful characters to not be involved in global chaos however when you look at it from a game development angle then it is too difficult to deliver on what DA:O set up.  I see DA2 as a way of buying time so maybe DA3 will patch the story up enough until the world is ready for the two PC characters to come back in some way.

How many differen't versions of Warden are there? too many to follow and thats one of the reasons why you can't play as any race apart from humans in DA2, reducing the number of differences between each Hawke so they can tie in better from a story stand point to aid in the reduction of development time.

Warden and Hawke aren't coming back in any big way if you ask me, they'll be mentioned and you may even speak to Hawke in some way but I doubt they'll play a big role.

[nightscrawl]

Icesong wrote...

Leliana was mid 20s, possibly nearing 30 or perhaps even over during DAO. I don't want her to be mid 40s by time my Warden reunites with her.

I actually tend to think that many players look at NPCs as younger than they should be. I'll actually go as far as saying that players look at NPC ages based on their own age: a younger person will think they are younger, whereas an older person might tack on a few years. In all cases ages are never specifically mentioned, we only have a character's past circumstances to consider.

For DAO specifically, given their histories, I would have guessed that the mage Warden, city elf Warden, human noble Warden, and Alistair are around 20 years old, give or take a couple of years for each. I have no guess for the Dalish elf Warden, and I might suggest late 20s to early 30s for the Aeducan Warden given that she was going to be given a military command.

I looked at Leliana and Zevran's age as you do, late 20s; Oghren and Sten as mid to late 30s; and Wynne as 50+ -- she carries on about being "old," but I really have no idea just how "old" she is; given Rhys's age, she could be in her 60s or 70s during the time of Asunder.

That's just my perspective on it though.


This is a repost of something I wrote in another thread...

As far as ages go in general, I would say that it's difficult to gauge the ages of most of them, particularly Fenris, Anders, Isabela, and Hawke. The default male Hawke certainly seems to be in his late 20s to early 30s based on appearance alone, and the beard makes him look even older than that, but that is just because of societal norms in mostly Christian Western cultures where young full-bearded men are uncommon (to us as players). The remaining three are problematic in that from what we know of them, they have lived a lot of life.

It is times like this that I really wish they had been more consistent with the time lapse from Awakening to DA2 in relation to Anders. The time overlap is really bad and requires considerable hand waving that is not required for anyone else. It's irritating. We don't even know when mages undertake their Harrowing, whether it's based on age alone, level of skill and training, or a combination of the two (which I think most likely), also putting into question the possible age of our DAO mage Warden. We know that Anders made several escape attempts, but not over low long a period. The only other clue to Anders's age is that he talks about Karl as if were a peer (they were apprentices together), and Karl has grey in his hair (some people age worse than others, and again the beard does not help).

The time lapse of the game is also problematic because the appearance of Hawke and all of Hawke's friends does not change. It's easier to consider that a person might not change too much from 23-30, but seems less likely from 33-40.

The only other thing I can point to as to how the writers use ages, David Gaider specifically, is in Asunder when Rhys is described as "rapidly approaching his fortieth" year, putting him from 37-39. In addition, if you examined the timelines carefully in his novels, you would be able to figure out how old Maric was when he ascended to the throne, how old Cailan was when Alistair (we assume it was Alistair, yes I know this is not confirmed) was born, the age Cailan was when he died, and infer how old Alistair was in DAO... All of which I'm not really going to examine at the moment, but it is possible through careful reading. (A disclaimer should be added the David says the timeline between the novels and the games is somewhat inaccurate.)

My point with the above paragraph is that unless it is specifically mentioned that a character is young (because of their experience or maturity level), like Maric in The Stolen Throne -- I also got the impression that Duncan was very young in The Calling, younger than 20 -- Dragon Age characters are skewed as older, mature people who have the considerable life experience to influence their personalities and opinions.

Read into that what you will about the ages of our various followers.

[Leoroc]

I guess if the warden ever shows up again he will be wearing a helmet to cover his face.

[Little Princess Peach]

David Gaider wrote...

Um, yeah-- my answer was with respect to the use of a protagonist between titles. If someone wants to argue the semantics of whether it's a proper "sequel" or "saga", or demand to know what our entire plan is for the overall story arch of the series-- and, not knowing it, assume that it can't possibly be epic because it's not what they want-- then knock yourselves out.

No, seriously, go hard. It'll give you something to do because this is something we won't provide clarity on even when the information on the game begins to flow. I totally hear the people who say they want more closure... and while I believe some people want a type of closure we're just never going to provide, that's not the same as there being none at all and no points of continuuity between stories. That is, however, just something you'll need to see for yourselves.

If we can't see the warden again will there at least be rumors?, or would that be harder to do?

[nightscrawl]

I'll post something from PAX East (April 2012) that might make some of you feel better...

Q: Hypothetically, of course, in the hypothetical Dragon Age III, let's say we have a hypothetical cameo from say, the Hero of Ferelden. Hypothetically, would he or she be voice acted, or would he or she just show up and just kind of be there --

A David: Oh, you mean the Warden?

Q: Yes, the Warden.

A David: If the Warden showed up, would the Warden be voice acted? (David and Mike look at each other, laughs from audience) OK, if, if, if we... IF, if we put your Warden in the game we would have to take into account the fact that technology has changed, the look of the game has changed, we have voiced characters -- there are no silent characters in the game. I think ideally, we would want to throw that to you as a choice, how you would like that presented. (looks at Mike) Is that fair?

A Mike: I think so, yeah. I think the under current of what Dave's saying is that we all kind of go whoo (exhale), is, to be quite frank, we'd have to do that so right. Because, again, it's your character, and that really is something that we'd want to put as much of that agency ON YOU, to own -- you know, how they would look and/or sound even -- as we could. And I think that would be the only way to make that character do a cameo. And the really the question is: is the cameo worth the potential disconnect? I don't know. I think it would really depend on the overall story.

A David: We'd wanna do it right, or not at all.

A Mike: Yeah. That'd be basically it.

A David: Not have your character showing up sounding like, you know "Ha ha ha!" (insane laughter) That would not be best...

A Mark off side: That's alright, that's what mine sounds like!

A David: Well it would be fun for us!

A Mike: Those happy-go-lucky City Elves! (laughs from audience)

[Funkjoker]

I'd be far happier if I'd get to play as _my_ warden again, since he's _my_ character and not (like Hawke) BioWare's.

This interview might sound partially good, however so do most of the PR talk. As such I wouldn't get the hopes too high.

I understand that a NPC-Warden would get a voice since it'd be quite weird to talk to a character with subtitles as answer, if any answer at all. Solution would be to give us the Warden back, so we can be our silent hero again without BW having to cast a voice.

A greater problem by having the warden as NPC is that Warden > rest anyway, but the AI wouldn't be able to fully execute the Awesomeness. One good Massacre followed by some sunders and any enemy is dead, except maybe some tanks like good old Harvester/grown Dragons etc.

Of course, if the OGB/Morri/Warden thing is never played out as BW doesn't come up with a good solution, it'd be better to stay untouched... however, it's a storyline with _huge_ potential... so I can't resist to mention it / think about it ^^

[Morroian]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

I'd be far happier if I'd get to play as _my_ warden again, since he's _my_ character and not (like Hawke) BioWare's.

My Hawkes are all mine and all different just like my Wardens.  

[Funkjoker]

Morroian wrote...

My Hawkes are all mine and all different just like my Wardens.

One didn't really control what the answer of Hawke was by the shortcomings of DA2's wheel.

This was a lengthy discussion in one thread in the DA2forums, don't have it linked anywhere, so maybe use the search function if you are interested in the discussion...

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 24 septembre 2012 - 10:55 .

[Montana]

I hope they are done with both the Warden and Hawke.

I was actually a bit disappointed when he was referenced in DA2 as being back in Ferelden since he (in my headcanon) vanished with his love Morrigan and their baby through the mirror, never to be heard of again (at least in the capacity of a Grey Warden).
All of my surviving wardens retired after Origins/Awakening (one is Queen of Ferelden, another leader of the elves in Denerim, looking out for his people). And the dead are, well dead.

I never connected enough with Hawke to care exactly what happenend with her and Merrill, so I wouldn't be too excited to see her in anything other than a cameo.

[Morroian]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Morroian wrote...

My Hawkes are all mine and all different just like my Wardens.

One didn't really control what the answer of Hawke was by the shortcomings of DA2's wheel.

This was a lengthy discussion in one thread in the DA2forums, don't have it linked anywhere, so maybe use the search function if you are interested in the discussion...

I characterised Hawker just fine with the wheel, as for past discussions I've participated in them.

[LobselVith8]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

One didn't really control what the answer of Hawke was by the shortcomings of DA2's wheel.

This was a lengthy discussion in one thread in the DA2forums, don't have it linked anywhere, so maybe use the search function if you are interested in the discussion...

I felt the same way. My Surana Warden could ascribe to the belief that the Maker was "foolish superstition," support the ideals of the Libertarian fraternity, be proactive about the political factions, and condemn the Chantry controlled Circles. I knew who the character was. In contrast, Hawke never said the dialogue options I chose for him, he said auto-lines outside my control, he was passive when I wanted him to be proactive, he seemed lazy and even inept at times, and he was religiously Andrastian. The Warden felt like my protagonist, while Hawke was almost a complete stranger because he was a pre-defined character of Bioware. I never had the same agency with apostate Hawke that I had with The Warden.

[daffl5]

NO I WANT MY WARDEN! HAWKE CAN GO SUCK LIZARD EGGS FOR ALL I CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Just leave the warden alone, BioWare. You can't recreate him/her, turn him/her into non playable form with voiced and claim he/she is yours now,  when it isn't you who created him/her in the first place like you created Hawke.

You may as well put your effort on Hawke as non playable character in DA 3 and claim he/she is yours,  since most players already recognized Hawke as your character anyway. So why bother with the Warden when you know you can;t do it right especially with voice actor.

Do what you will with Hawke. I couldn't care less. But leave my warden alone. He/she is better be in player's head than in your hand.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 25 septembre 2012 - 01:33 .

[FlyinElk212]

David Gaider wrote...

b09boy wrote...
If you want to do multiple protagonists then give the existing ones closure.  The stream of cliffhangers is nothing less than extremely annoying and very much detracts from individual stories.  It also makes it difficult to accept further protagonists when it feels we're backlogged and finishing prior protagonists.

The existence of unresolved plot threads is not a "cliffhanger". That is an abuse of the term (much like "cliche", "retcon" or "Mary Sure" in just about any Internet forum). A cliffhanger is when the central conflict of a story is not resolved. DAO would have been a cliffhanger if the story had ended en route to Denerim for the final battle.

David, out of curiosity, would you say that Dragon Age 2 didn't end on a cliffhanger as well?

I'll agree that DAO didn't end on a cliffhanger. Origins did a great job at wrapping up all the loose ends: the central plot was concluded, and we even got character conclusions in the epilogue talks we got after slaying the Archdemon...for both our companions AND our Warden. However, I find it hard to believe that anyone would argue that Dragon Age 2 DIDN'T end on a cliffhanger.

That's my (and more of your fans here) biggest issue w/ a new protagonist in DA3. The conflict between the Mages & Templars, an issue Hawke is INTENSELY rooted in was never resolved, and neither was Hawke's story. Heck, no one knows where he even is at the end of Dragon Age 2. If Hawke's issues are going to be thrown aside for an entirely new character's issues, then what was the point of building up Hawke in the first place?

TL;DR- DA2 & Hawke's story ended on a cliffhanger, yet he's not the protagonist in the next game. Isn't it unfair to ask fans to dedicate themselves to your characters and their stories if there's no guarantee that the fans will see (and be the ones guiding them to) their resolutions?

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 25 septembre 2012 - 02:06 .

[Heimdall]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

b09boy wrote...
If you want to do multiple protagonists then give the existing ones closure.  The stream of cliffhangers is nothing less than extremely annoying and very much detracts from individual stories.  It also makes it difficult to accept further protagonists when it feels we're backlogged and finishing prior protagonists.

The existence of unresolved plot threads is not a "cliffhanger". That is an abuse of the term (much like "cliche", "retcon" or "Mary Sure" in just about any Internet forum). A cliffhanger is when the central conflict of a story is not resolved. DAO would have been a cliffhanger if the story had ended en route to Denerim for the final battle.

David, out of curiosity, would you say that Dragon Age 2 didn't end on a cliffhanger as well?

I'll agree that DAO didn't end on a cliffhanger. Origins did a great job at wrapping up all the loose ends: the central plot was concluded, and we even got character conclusions in the epilogue talks we got after slaying the Archdemon...for both our companions AND our Warden. However, I find it hard to believe that anyone would argue that Dragon Age 2 DIDN'T end on a cliffhanger.

That's my (and more of your fans here) biggest issue w/ a new protagonist in DA3. The conflict between the Mages & Templars, an issue Hawke is INTENSELY rooted in was never resolved, and neither was Hawke's story. Heck, no one knows where he even is at the end of Dragon Age 2. If Hawke's issues are going to be thrown aside for an entirely new character's issues, then what was the point of building up Hawke in the first place?

TL;DR- DA2 & Hawke's story ended on a cliffhanger, yet he's not the protagonist in the next game. Isn't it unfair to ask fans to dedicate themselves to your characters and their stories if there's no guarantee that the fans will see (and be the ones guiding them to) their resolutions?

To be fair, DA2 was meant to have an expansion to resolve that.

[unbentbuzzkill]

warden>hawke nuff said

[Sol Downer]

I have nothing meaningful to say, but if you plan to play with the Warden's thread as well as Hawke's I have one request. Do not change the characters on this list in any way.
Dragon Age: Origins
Donovan Tabris
Amelia Cousland
Dythus Cousland
Zero Mahariel
and Thanatos Amell
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dragon Age II
Exile Hawke
Nyx Hawke
Bloodflow Hawke
Raven Hawke
and Gale Hawke
...I'm very attached to them, so I trust you guys enough to do what you do. Don't let me down, Bioware!

Modifié par Ultimashade, 25 septembre 2012 - 05:01 .

[DominantDjDark]

Ultimashade wrote...


Raven Hawke

Holy crap, that's what I called my first character on DAII the day it got released, 

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

ultimately that character is ours now, and while we'll tread as carefully as we can, the fact remains that new plots may use them in some capacity.

Oh God... Xanthos Aeducan is ruined. 

Only if you buy Dragon Age III.