486 réponses à ce sujet

[Jerrybnsn]

bigbad1013 wrote...

Well, BioWare said right from the start that Dragon Age wasn't about a single character but rather about the Dragon Age and the events that takes place during it.

It wasn't unti they announced a new protagonist for DA2 did we hear that the Dragon Age series was just about the world of Thedas and not allow importing succesive characters.

That makes it nothing more than a MMO world designed for a single player experience.  Each game is nothing really more than a stand alone experience such as what the Final Fantasy series is.  Considering Bioware's legacy, it has surprise me that they would go with such a limiting standard. 

I too was under the impression that the Dragon Age series was going to be an epic saga connected by the characters and events experience.  Just like the high fantasy sagas that I read when I was younger.  But in a video game, I wouldn't be just reading it, I was actually participating in it and help shaping that world of Dragon Age.  I think  what all sagas have is that something keeps all the series connected by characters, and mostly a single hero.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 19 septembre 2012 - 02:37 .

[thebigbad1013]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

bigbad1013 wrote...

Well, BioWare said right from the start that Dragon Age wasn't about a single character but rather about the Dragon Age and the events that takes place during it.

It wasn't unti they announced a new protagonist for DA2 did we hear that the Dragon Age series was just about the world of Thedas and not allow importing succesive characters.

That makes it nothing more than a MMO world designed for a single player experience.  Each game is nothing really more than a stand alone experience such as what the Final Fantasy series is.  Considering Bioware's legacy, it has surprise me that they would go with such a limiting standard. 

I too was under the impression that the Dragon Age series was going to be an epic saga connected by the characters and events experience.  Just like the high fantasy sagas that I read when I was younger.  But in a video game, I wouldn't be just reading it, I was actually participating in it and help shaping that world of Dragon Age.  I think  what all sagas have is that something keeps all the series connected by characters, and mostly a single hero.

MMO world designed for a single player experience? Well, obviously I disagree. The "epic saga" of this series is the story of the Dragon Age. Each game may be a stand alone, but each game also contributes to the whole, adding new bits and pieces to the story of the Dragon Age. You are indeed shaping the world, but through several characters instead of just one. That doesn't in any way make it an "MMO world" in my opinion.

[cindercatz]

Epics of all sorts rarely follow any single character, though. It's the grander tapestry of interweaving plot that's more the defining trait, and that's what makes Dragon Age's Thedas so interesting as well.

Feanor_II wrote...

Don't forget that roughly 50% of players don't have the God Child conceived and/or have their Warden dead...... so don't have much expectation in those being major plotlines.

I was thinking more that the Warden would be incorporated into larger important parts of the main story, though, not have his/her own separate story. The Warden can be all over the place, so it's far easier to weave them in where we put them than to build multiple side stories (on top of the hopefully multiple origins, etc. that we could get) just for all the different possible Wardens. Hawke can only really be in two places, right? Either he/she was the viscount or they weren't.

[Jerrybnsn]

bigbad1013 wrote...

MMO world designed for a single player experience? Well, obviously I disagree. The "epic saga" of this series is the story of the Dragon Age. Each game may be a stand alone, but each game also contributes to the whole, adding new bits and pieces to the story of the Dragon Age. You are indeed shaping the world, but through several characters instead of just one. That doesn't in any way make it an "MMO world" in my opinion.

So far DA isn't a saga but a series. A saga isn't a set of different stories with different heroes that is connected together because they take place in the same age. I could write a series of books about the American Civil War period, but if they are not connected somehow by a single character, or a set of characters playing out a single story than its not a saga.  A saga is just a long story, and every story needs a hero. 

This is why Morrigan and the OGB are in such high demand to play a big part in DA3, because they want the Dragon Age series to follow as a saga.

[cindercatz]

Agreed with that.

edit: One big caveat, though. I hope this can be a saga without end, with stories that are resolved and others that are introduced simulataneously, without end. It's about the story, but the story of the world, not any one particular through line.

Modifié par cindercatz, 19 septembre 2012 - 03:09 .

[thebigbad1013]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

bigbad1013 wrote...

MMO world designed for a single player experience? Well, obviously I disagree. The "epic saga" of this series is the story of the Dragon Age. Each game may be a stand alone, but each game also contributes to the whole, adding new bits and pieces to the story of the Dragon Age. You are indeed shaping the world, but through several characters instead of just one. That doesn't in any way make it an "MMO world" in my opinion.

So far DA isn't a saga but a series. A saga isn't a set of different stories with different heroes that is connected together because they take place in the same age. I could write a series of books about the American Civil War period, but if they are not connected somehow by a single character, or a set of characters playing out a single story than its not a saga.  A saga is just a long story, and every story needs a hero. 

This is why Morrigan and the OGB are in such high demand to play a big part in DA3, because they want the Dragon Age series to follow as a saga.

My point is that Dragon Age, as I understand it, was never meant to be what you are describing. I understand that you want that and that's perfectly valid, I just personally don't agree with the notion that it has to be that way.

[Obeded the 2nd]

Would like them in cameo roles TBH.

[Jerrybnsn]

^They can always create a new saga based off the old one when its finished. Look at the Avatar: The last Air Bender. Sadly, even sagas must have an end.

[Jerrybnsn]

bigbad1013 wrote...


My point is that Dragon Age, as I understand it, was never meant to be what you are describing. I understand that you want that and that's perfectly valid, I just personally don't agree with the notion that it has to be that way.

Maybe it wasn't suppose to be a saga, but it sure seemed liked it at the end of Origins.  I sure would have liked to have been a fly on the wall during the forming stages of Origins with the original lead designers to where they wanted to take this series.

Anyway, I did admit in the beginning of this discussion that I was under the wrong impression that this would be an epic saga instead of a series of seperate stories.  Lost potential, imo.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 19 septembre 2012 - 03:21 .

[Reaverwind]

LadyVaJedi wrote...

I want an answer to what happened to my Warden Queen and to my Female Hawke and her lover Anders darn it! I find it very annoying that both of them just disappeared.

My warden did not "disappear". He took one for the team. Anders is dead (again), and better stay that way. If Hawke knows what's good for him, he'll stay "disappeared".

[Carmen_Willow]

Let Hawke and the Warden slip into their places in history. I'm ready for a new protagonist and don't care whether or not they make an appearance. Don't get me wrong, I loved them both, but I don't think Dragon Age was ever meant to have sequels. They should never have called the second game Dragon Age II, it should have been Dragon Age: Kirkwall. Calling it "II" led to unrequited expectations! Let's start fresh and not have carry overs except perhaps as a cameo or two.

[David Gaider]

Jerrybnsn wrote...
It wasn't unti they announced a new protagonist for DA2 did we hear that the Dragon Age series was just about the world of Thedas and not allow importing succesive characters.

That makes it nothing more than a MMO world designed for a single player experience.  Each game is nothing really more than a stand alone experience such as what the Final Fantasy series is.  Considering Bioware's legacy, it has surprise me that they would go with such a limiting standard. 

I too was under the impression that the Dragon Age series was going to be an epic saga connected by the characters and events experience.  Just like the high fantasy sagas that I read when I was younger.  But in a video game, I wouldn't be just reading it, I was actually participating in it and help shaping that world of Dragon Age.  I think  what all sagas have is that something keeps all the series connected by characters, and mostly a single hero.

There must be threads connecting a series-- but it needn't be the protaganist. For Dragon Age it's the setting and many of the events/characters within it.

Why do so many people assume otherwise? I imagine because there was a lot of PR for Mass Effect going on at the same time as when Dragon Age was created. I can't imagine what other "Bioware" legacy you could be referring to... as the only other Bioware game that even had a returning protaganist was Baldur's Gate.

Though, I suppose by the logic of some folks, even one game is enough to establish a pattern (like how some suggest that importing choices between games is also some kind of common CRPG mechanic when no games other than DA and ME have really even attempted it). And we did say that Dragon Age: Origins was a spiritual successor to the BG games (ignoring that BG also dumped every other variable), so fair enough... though it seems like a lot of assumptions to place on a game where the protaganist could rather definitively die.

At any rate, we'll say it again: DA is about the world of Thedas. Chances are there will never be a re-occuring protaganist between games, even if there is a common thread in the world and the plots that you've taken part in.

And thus the next series that BioWare makes can inherent all the assumptions from fans who assume it will work exactly the same was as Dragon Age. Good luck, imaginary next series!

Modifié par David Gaider, 19 septembre 2012 - 03:40 .

[Renmiri1]

I loved that DA2 was about a different protagonist. My Warden is queen with Alistair and her story is pretty much done.

With that said, you guys left a hanging thread about Hawke and the Warden having disappeared at the end of DA2. I want to know what that was all about. And also want to know what happened with the mage / templar rebellion that Anders and my Hawke started. In my view Hawke and Anders would definitely try to stay involved in it so was a surprise to not see them in Asunder.

But no need for any of them to be the new PC. A cameo would be lovely but even a codex entry would suffice ^^

[Jerrybnsn]

David Gaider wrote...

There must be threads connecting a series-- but it needn't be the protaganist. For Dragon Age it's the setting and many of the events/characters within it.

Why do so many people assume otherwise?

Thank you for responding to my posting.  But, while I did recognize that Dragon Age was a series, it not being connected by a single hero or set characters carrying out a single overarching story doesn't make the series an epic or a saga.  (I just found out that I was pushing the redundancy button heavy in that epic and saga both mean the same thing--a long story)

So could you answer the question of whether or not the Dragon Age series was suppose to be a saga? 

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 19 septembre 2012 - 03:52 .

[Wulfram]

Having new protagonists is fine and good, but some better way of handling the ex-PCs than just vanishing them is needed.

And the two games we've had so far didn't really feel very connected by the setting, or continuing plot threads either.

[toddx77]

I still think something with them has to be done big or small. Like I mentioned earlier the fact that Dragon Age 2 ends with both the warden and Hawke missing and Leliana saying "that is no accident" has to mean something. Also why would the ending of witch hunt seem to lead us on as well. Morrigan mentioned the child is safe beyond the portal meaning the child is born and when she mentions great change is coming she looked kind of nervous and yet she is keeping the god child in that other dimension to protect it.

[Sylvanpyxie]

My warden is dead. If she turned up in a cameo appearance I would be... Concerned.

Sometimes honourable mentions and hero worshippers are the best way to keep a character alive, or.. Uh, dead I suppose.

[wright1978]

Renmiri1 wrote...

I loved that DA2 was about a different protagonist. My Warden is queen with Alistair and her story is pretty much done.

With that said, you guys left a hanging thread about Hawke and the Warden having disappeared at the end of DA2. I want to know what that was all about. And also want to know what happened with the mage / templar rebellion that Anders and my Hawke started. In my view Hawke and Anders would definitely try to stay involved in it so was a surprise to not see them in Asunder.

But no need for any of them to be the new PC. A cameo would be lovely but even a codex entry would suffice ^^

Yep agree completely, especially with the bolded portion.

[Berty213]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

My warden is dead. If she turned up in a cameo appearance I would be... Concerned.

Out of all the playthroughs I have done for DA:O (which is a lot) not one of my wardens is dead. My question to you is this, at the end of DA2, does Leliana say that Hawke and your Warden are missing? Because if your Warden is dead then I think it would be hard for him/her to go missing

Modifié par Berty213, 19 septembre 2012 - 04:00 .

[Apollo Starflare]

If anything it is more limited to restrict themselves to the one protagonist for every game. I love that they have chosen to focus on the world as a whole for the DA series.

My only concern is that currently the story seems remarkably entwined with the events of both past games, and as such one is more likely to expect the various characters from those games to return, particularly those who hold positions of power in some folks playthrough's such as Alistair and the Warden.

But I'm confident the writing team have thought this all through otherwise we would be seeing a larger jump in time.

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
There must be threads connecting a series-- but it needn't be the protaganist. For Dragon Age it's the setting and many of the events/characters within it.

But why can't the characters that act as threads that tie together the games be some of the old player characters, especially if they're still alive in a player's game?

I'm not saying to make it like BG or Mass Effect with only one central protagonist, but if some future Dragon Age game ends up with the story drifing to some event or past character that had really close ties to the Warden or Hawke, why not temporarily let the player just control the old PC for a time? Yes, yes, I'm sure there would be copious amounts of technical issues and resource issues making it more work than it would maybe be worth, but still, if Dragon Age games are about the world of Dragon Age and you still have past player characters like Hawke or the Warden existing in the world, why not?

I'm just thinking like A Song of Ice and Fire how each chapter is from the POV of a different character, which is a very interesting way to see a world and the events in it. As you have more Dragon Age games now, why not call up past player characters to be playable for small chunks to give a larger scope to the world? Instead of having a new Player Character end up having to deal with every single little thing whether it really makes sense or not, let old PC's pick up the slack.

Leave the Warden to deal with Morrigan/Eluvian/OGB stuff if they're still involved with them. Leave Hawke to deal with Kirkwall and Mage/Templar stuff. Leave the Orlesian Warden to deal with Darkspawn stuff. Leave the Inquistor to the Inquisition. Seems that would be an easier way to expand the world in a way that doesn't simply have one character globe trotting too- just cut to the Warden in the Anderfels or Hawke in Kirkwall or wherever and the new PC in Orlais.

If we're the Inquisitor in DA3 and as part of their investigation they need info on Morrigan or Flemeth or the OGB, maybe you can send a letter or chat with the First Warden through one of those palantir mage stone things. Upon doing so, instead of having the Inquisitor travel all the way to some far corner of Thedas, the game just cuts to the Warden in the Eluvian with Morrigan or to the Orlesian Warden Commander to investigate whatever it is the Inquisitor needs. Or if the Inquisitor needs to get the mages/templars on his side as part of the story, then maybe he could send an emissary to Hawke, upon doing so the player takes control of Hawke for a time and Hawke can convince whatever faction they sided with in DA2 to side or not side with the Inquistor.  It would be very interesting to do that kind of role playing different PCs with different motivations within one game.

Narratively having multiple protagonists within one game could be very interesting.

David Gaider wrote...
though it seems like a lot of assumptions to place on a game where the protaganist could rather definitively die.

Key word being "could." The protagonist can also rather definitively "survive" Origins. But that is kind of why it would be interesting to play as them again. That whole Dark Ritual choice was big not just for the OGB creation or not, but also in the prospect of having your Warden survive to fight another day and having to deal with the consequences of that choice and have them deal with any blow back, not some new PC unrelated to that situation. That choice ends up falling a little flat if the Warden is effectively "dead" no matter what by means of them being written out of the series on account of simply providing a choice for them to possibly die.

Modifié par Brockololly, 19 septembre 2012 - 04:12 .

[David Gaider]

Jerrybnsn wrote...
Thank you for responding to my posting.  But, while I did recognize that Dragon Age was a series, it not being connected by a single hero or set characters carrying out a single overarching story doesn't make the series an epic or a saga.  (I just found out that I was pushing the redundancy button heavy in that epic and saga both mean the same thing--a long story)

So could you answer the question of whether or not the Dragon Age series was suppose to be a saga? 

It's not a single story. Mass Effect was announced as a trilogy from the beginning-- a single story spanning three games. Dragon Age was not, nor was it ever intended to be (if it was, we probably wouldn't have allowed the protagainst to die or had so many "walk into the sunset" type epilogues). We didn't say it wasn't at the time, but that's likely because we didn't think we needed to, and undoubtedly didn't assume that anyone would take the messaging for Mass Effect to automatically apply to Dragon Age as well. Our mistake, perhaps?

Yes, there are plot threads remaining from both DAO and DA2 which will carry forward, but they do not require a single protaganist to resolve. I get that some people like the idea of it doing so, but there's a difference between wanting it and it having some kind of literary/gaming necessity.

Modifié par David Gaider, 19 septembre 2012 - 04:05 .

[nightscrawl]

David Gaider wrote...

... though it seems like a lot of assumptions to place on a game where the protaganist could rather definitively die.

Lol I think people tend to forget this to be honest. Imagine that DA2 was designed around the Warden, but you have an import where the Warden died, well there's no DA2 for you then, is there?! Then again, I don't imagine that the people with living Wardens really care if a succeeding game retcons some other player's dead Warden. Perhaps that's just me being cynical.

People may throw out DAA and Zombie Warden or Generic Orlesian Warden as an example, but DAA was an expansion and not a full fledged game. To be honest, I don't think Zombie Warden should ever have been allowed: import to recognize the player's choice with respect to the king/queen and possibly something relating to Howe, and then force you to make a new character. But again, it was an expansion, so I can see why the allowance was made.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 19 septembre 2012 - 04:06 .

[Reidbynature]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

My warden is dead. If she turned up in a cameo appearance I would be... Concerned.

Sometimes honourable mentions and hero worshippers are the best way to keep a character alive, or.. Uh, dead I suppose.

I would suggest the cameo be dynamic and recognise when Warden's are dead (no forced resurrections like Leiliana).  In the case of a dead Warden either have no cameo or someone in his/her place if appropriate (like another Grey Warden if needed) who makes reference to your Warden's passing and being unable to be there.

[upsettingshorts]

I don't want a set protagonist. Assuming we had one, what hilarious set of contrivances would be required to get the Warden - forgetting for a moment they can die at the Archdemon - to Kirkwall for ten years, then off to whatever the Inquisition will cover. Then isn't it about time for his/her Calling, all while maintaining stuff like the relevance of the origin, the DAO boon, DAO and DA2 romances... good lord it would be a nightmare.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 septembre 2012 - 04:06 .