161 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Hexley UK wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

The end of a chapter in a 3 chapter story.

With each chapter being relatively self-contained stories. Vigil never pops up again. He's a new character introduced at the end of a story for exposition purposes and to give Shepard and co. a bit of a Deus Ex Machina to beat Sovereign.

Thank you...That's my point.

And your point is irrelevant as it's not the end of the entire story just the end of part 1 of a 3 part story.

If a part of a story can be looked at independently than the rules of a story applies. It matter not if it's a book 1 of a story.

[CronoDragoon]

Hexley UK wrote...
And your point is irrelevant as it's not the end of the entire story just the end of part 1 of a 3 part story.

That distinction only matters if the monomyth archetype stretches out over 3 games instead of being repeated in each game. But it is repeated in every game. Therefore, any dos or don'ts that apply to the end of ME3 apply to the end of ME1 and ME2 as well, unless it is a character or plot device that proceeds into the next two games. Which Vigil doesn't.

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Illos is part of the end not before the end.
Post-ec give a clear expliantion. Most who just say it a mess just don't try to understand it.  You just tune out once the catalyst pops out.

Do you know how far-fetched it sounds ? 

It´s either end or not the end ... case closed 

So the Cronos station is part of last act of game and yet it´s not the ending - ending are just last 30 minutes of whole game filled with 2 conversations and not 2-3 hours since the entry to Cronos Station...

That means Illios is the end of the story. It the climax. The start of the climax.
And cronoc station is independent of the climax.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

The end of a chapter in a 3 chapter story.

With each chapter being relatively self-contained stories. Vigil never pops up again. He's a new character introduced at the end of a story for exposition purposes and to give Shepard and co. a bit of a Deus Ex Machina to beat Sovereign.

Yeah, that's why I wouldn't say that you can "never" introduce a late character into the story. I think a better way of putting it is: if you're going to introduce new characters at the last minute, give sufficient set-up to justify their existence.

All of ME1 was centered around discovering what the Conduit was, a question which Vigil (an ally) answers in unnecessary detail. He tells us that we have to stop Saren letting the Reapers through, but takes his time telling us a story with details like how Ilos is top secret, how all the Prothean researchers died, etc, things which Shepard really doesn't need to know to stop Saren.

The Catalyst offers the opposite problem: also a last minute addition, but unlike Vigil, the Catalyst has a more antagonistic role being responsible for the cycle of genocide we are currently enduring. Where Vigil gave us details we really didn't need, in relatively few lines of dialogue (especially pre-EC) the Catalyst introduces the Synthetic-Organic conflict without really providing details which someone who hadn't observed the actual conflict would probably want to know. Even if we allow the possibility that the Catalyst/Leviathans were right to deal with this conflict, their approach in dealing with Shepard was completely wrong.

Not to use the Matrix Revolutions as an example, but at least there when the machines recognized Neo's ability to stop Smith, they called off the attack on Zion at least until everything was clear. ME3 really should have done something similar once the Catalyst realizes that Shepard will change the galaxy via the Crucible so he could more fully explain the nature of this conflict.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 18 septembre 2012 - 05:34 .

[Hexley UK]

dreman9999 wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

The end of a chapter in a 3 chapter story.

With each chapter being relatively self-contained stories. Vigil never pops up again. He's a new character introduced at the end of a story for exposition purposes and to give Shepard and co. a bit of a Deus Ex Machina to beat Sovereign.

Thank you...That's my point.

And your point is irrelevant as it's not the end of the entire story just the end of part 1 of a 3 part story.

If a part of a story can be looked at independently than the rules of a story applies. It matter not if it's a book 1 of a story.

Tell that to George R.R martin or J.R.R Tolkien or many other series or trilogy authors considered masters of their art.

[The Spamming Troll]

you guys are compairing vigil, an AI of some kind trapped on a planet that no one has been to since that last prothean conjigal visit, compared to MOTHER FRAKING STARCHILD KING AND CREATOR OF THE GALAXY.

thats like comparing puny little me to the all mighty and greatly powerfull casey hudson.

i was gonna say "and briliant" casey hudson, but i cant even be sarcastic about saying that guys got anything good going on upstairs.

[CronoDragoon]

Hexley UK wrote...

Tell that to George R.R martin or J.R.R Tolkien or many other series or trilogy authors considered masters of their art.

Both SoIaF and Lord of the Rings are different because all the books depend on one another in order to be considered a complete story arc. Each Mass Effect game, however, is its own story arc.

And for the record, the amount of people who think Martin is a master storyteller is dwindling.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 septembre 2012 - 05:36 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

dreman9999 wrote...

Everything on Illos is part of the climax. It part of the end.

Yes the catalyst is responsible for all the conflict in the story but it is still a voice box in the end. It does nothing more but explain the reapers and what the crucible does. That defines a voice box.

Part of the end not the scene involving the ultimate resolution of the plot.

Voice boxes don't turn of crucibles when you talk back to them.

[The Spamming Troll]

dreman9999 wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Illos is part of the end not before the end.
Post-ec give a clear expliantion. Most who just say it a mess just don't try to understand it.  You just tune out once the catalyst pops out.

Do you know how far-fetched it sounds ? 

It´s either end or not the end ... case closed 

So the Cronos station is part of last act of game and yet it´s not the ending - ending are just last 30 minutes of whole game filled with 2 conversations and not 2-3 hours since the entry to Cronos Station...

That means Illios is the end of the story. It the climax. The start of the climax.
And cronoc station is independent of the climax.

lol.

im laughing at you, not with you.

[Hexley UK]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

Tell that to George R.R martin or J.R.R Tolkien or many other series or trilogy authors considered masters of their art.

Both SoIaF and Lord of the Rings are different because all the books depend on one another in order to be considered a complete story arc. Each Mass Effect game, however, is its own story arc.

And for the record, the amount of people who think Martin is a master storyteller is dwindling.

No it's a trilogy....as stated by BiowEAre themselves.

[CronoDragoon]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

you guys are compairing vigil, an AI of some kind trapped on a planet that no one has been to since that last prothean conjigal visit, compared to MOTHER FRAKING STARCHILD KING AND CREATOR OF THE GALAXY.

thats like comparing puny little me to the all mighty and greatly powerfull casey hudson.

i was gonna say "and briliant" casey hudson, but i cant even be sarcastic about saying that guys got anything good going on upstairs.

Please show in what way the comparison is not relevant in the terms we have been comparing them.

[dreman9999]

Hexley UK wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

The end of a chapter in a 3 chapter story.

With each chapter being relatively self-contained stories. Vigil never pops up again. He's a new character introduced at the end of a story for exposition purposes and to give Shepard and co. a bit of a Deus Ex Machina to beat Sovereign.

Thank you...That's my point.

And your point is irrelevant as it's not the end of the entire story just the end of part 1 of a 3 part story.

If a part of a story can be looked at independently than the rules of a story applies. It matter not if it's a book 1 of a story.

Tell that to George R.R martin or J.R.R Tolkien or many other series or trilogy authors considered masters of their art.

They will tell you each one of there books can be looked at independently and part of one story. Each book of there story has a stroy line in its self it starts and concludes in each book with only the overarcking story left as a chilff hanger.

Aka, the have independent stories each and one big story tieing everything together.

[dreman9999]

Hexley UK wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

Tell that to George R.R martin or J.R.R Tolkien or many other series or trilogy authors considered masters of their art.

Both SoIaF and Lord of the Rings are different because all the books depend on one another in order to be considered a complete story arc. Each Mass Effect game, however, is its own story arc.

And for the record, the amount of people who think Martin is a master storyteller is dwindling.

No it's a trilogy....as stated by BiowEAre themselves.

So? Each poar of the trilogy can be look on it's own. That means it has a larger story tieing everthing together.

[AresKeith]

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Everything on Illos is part of the climax. It part of the end.

Yes the catalyst is responsible for all the conflict in the story but it is still a voice box in the end. It does nothing more but explain the reapers and what the crucible does. That defines a voice box.

Part of the end not the scene involving the ultimate resolution of the plot.

Voice boxes don't turn of crucibles when you talk back to them.

"I'm as much of an AI as you are an animal" 

[Hexley UK]

dreman9999 wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

Tell that to George R.R martin or J.R.R Tolkien or many other series or trilogy authors considered masters of their art.

Both SoIaF and Lord of the Rings are different because all the books depend on one another in order to be considered a complete story arc. Each Mass Effect game, however, is its own story arc.

And for the record, the amount of people who think Martin is a master storyteller is dwindling.

No it's a trilogy....as stated by BiowEAre themselves.

So? Each poar of the trilogy can be look on it's own. That means it has a larger story tieing everthing together.

But a trilogy or series has different storytelling rules....which is what i've already stated.

Think i'm done talking to you now as your either incapable of understanding that or being purposefully obtuse.

Peace.

[CronoDragoon]

Hexley UK wrote...

No it's a trilogy....as stated by BiowEAre themselves.

Yes, it's a trilogy. But it's a trilogy where the call to action, trials, rising action, climax, and denounement are all repeated in each part. Therefore, literary criticism about "the end" of something should apply to all 3 endings of each game, unless it's a plot thread expanded on further in the next installments. Which it is not.

[dreman9999]

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Everything on Illos is part of the climax. It part of the end.

Yes the catalyst is responsible for all the conflict in the story but it is still a voice box in the end. It does nothing more but explain the reapers and what the crucible does. That defines a voice box.

Part of the end not the scene involving the ultimate resolution of the plot.

Voice boxes don't turn of crucibles when you talk back to them.

1. The catalyst turns off the crucible because it's left to only do it's first solution. Turnign it off does not mean you control what the device does. Just because I can turn a fan off does not means I can make it make waffles.

2.But my point still is that the Catalyst still does everything Virgil does in ME1. Virgil is still tied to the ultimate resolution tothe plot.

[CronoDragoon]

dreman9999 wrote...
They will tell you each one of there books can be looked at independently and part of one story. Each book of there story has a stroy line in its self it starts and concludes in each book with only the overarcking story left as a chilff hanger.

Aka, the have independent stories each and one big story tieing everything together.

Except in these cases they sort of don't, especially SoIaF. Not every series has independent parts.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 18 septembre 2012 - 05:44 .

[Applepie_Svk]

dreman9999 wrote...

That means Illios is the end of the story. It the climax. The start of the climax.
And cronoc station is independent of the climax.

Cronos stations is the same as Illos and it´s not the climax of game but just an explanation - climax for what we were trying to do and achieve of whole game but not the main goal :

Main goal is Stopping the Reapers and not building of Crucible, looking for Conduit, looking the way behind the Omega 4 relay - it´s just a tool for getting of main goal, not the main goal itself...

ME1 - getting to Conduit thanks to Vigil, Prothean Beacons
ME2 - getting to Collector´s base thanks to Direlict Reaper and encounters with Collectors
ME3 - building a Crucible thanks to multiple missions which were trying to collect a puzzle - Mars - Thessia - Cronos

Climax is the end of game, the last conversation - final conclusion - last step:
ME1 - Saren and Sovereign
ME2 - Reaper of Collector base and Arrival DLC chat with Harbinger
ME3 - TIM and Catalyst

[dreman9999]

Hexley UK wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

Tell that to George R.R martin or J.R.R Tolkien or many other series or trilogy authors considered masters of their art.

Both SoIaF and Lord of the Rings are different because all the books depend on one another in order to be considered a complete story arc. Each Mass Effect game, however, is its own story arc.

And for the record, the amount of people who think Martin is a master storyteller is dwindling.

No it's a trilogy....as stated by BiowEAre themselves.

So? Each poar of the trilogy can be look on it's own. That means it has a larger story tieing everthing together.

But a trilogy or series has different storytelling rules....which is what i've already stated.

The rule is that a trology has a over reaching story line that connect each part of the story. It does not mean that it over seeds the nessiaries of a story. Each part of the trilogy has it's own story line it needs to tie up. that still means each part of the trilogy needs to fallow the ruls of a story out side of thing that will tie each part together.

[Mathias]

Dreman stop, your argument sucks. You're just grasping for any excuses you can come up with, whether they work or not.

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

That means Illios is the end of the story. It the climax. The start of the climax.
And cronoc station is independent of the climax.

Cronos stations is the same as Illos and it´s not the climax of game but just an explanation - climax for what we were trying to do and achieve of whole game but not the main goal :

Main goal is Stopping the Reapers and not building of Crucible, looking for Conduit, looking the way behind the Omega 4 relay - it´s just a tool for getting of main goal, not the main goal itself...

ME1 - getting to Conduit thanks to Vigil, Prothean Beacons
ME2 - getting to Collector´s base thanks to Direlict Reaper and encounters with Collectors
ME3 - building a Crucible thanks to multiple missions which were trying to collect a puzzle - Mars - Thessia - Cronos

Climax is the end of game, the last conversation - final conclusion - last step:
ME1 - Saren and Sovereign
ME2 - Reaper of Collector base and Arrival DLC chat with Harbinger
ME3 - TIM and Catalyst

You confusing climax with conclusion.

Climax...
http://en.wikipedia....max_(narrative) 
turning point[/b] of a narrative[/b] work is its point of highest tension or drama or when the action starts in which the solution is given.[1][2] 

That would mean Virgil is part of the climax.

Modifié par dreman9999, 18 septembre 2012 - 05:56 .

[Hexley UK]

dreman9999 wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

That means Illios is the end of the story. It the climax. The start of the climax.
And cronoc station is independent of the climax.

Cronos stations is the same as Illos and it´s not the climax of game but just an explanation - climax for what we were trying to do and achieve of whole game but not the main goal :

Main goal is Stopping the Reapers and not building of Crucible, looking for Conduit, looking the way behind the Omega 4 relay - it´s just a tool for getting of main goal, not the main goal itself...

ME1 - getting to Conduit thanks to Vigil, Prothean Beacons
ME2 - getting to Collector´s base thanks to Direlict Reaper and encounters with Collectors
ME3 - building a Crucible thanks to multiple missions which were trying to collect a puzzle - Mars - Thessia - Cronos

Climax is the end of game, the last conversation - final conclusion - last step:
ME1 - Saren and Sovereign
ME2 - Reaper of Collector base and Arrival DLC chat with Harbinger
ME3 - TIM and Catalyst

You confusing climax with concluston.

Climax...
http://en.wikipedia....max_(narrative) 
turning point[/b] of a narrative[/b] work is its point of highest tension or drama or when the action starts in which the solution is given.[1][2] 

That would mean Virgil is part of the climax.

Don't think i'd confuse a "Concluston" with anything.

[dreman9999]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Dreman stop, your argument sucks. You're just grasping for any excuses you can come up with, whether they work or not.

No I'm not.  I'm just pointing out that your warping most of the rules of writing just to say you don't like the ending.


The very concept of an ending is based on delivery. Many authers have bended the rules successfully because of how they dilivered the conclusion.

Even your  "Do Afford redemption to your heroic character " statement is countered by Ender's game.
My point is how you diliver the ending reguards it's quality....A thing the pre-ec endings did not do well.

If the post-ec ending was the orginal ending, none of the contriversy over the ending would exsist.

[GreyLycanTrope]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. The catalyst turns off the crucible because it's left to only do it's first solution. Turnign it off does not mean you control what the device does. Just because I can turn a fan off does not means I can make it make waffles.

2.But my point still is that the Catalyst still does everything Virgil does in ME1. Virgil is still tied to the ultimate resolution tothe plot.

1. And yet we get synthesis somehow. Despite no one but it and the Leviathans knowing what it's motivations were. "The crucible is little more then a power source" "It changed me." "We find a new solution" these are not idle comments.
2. tied to =/= showing up during