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[dreman9999]

Hexley UK wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

That means Illios is the end of the story. It the climax. The start of the climax.
And cronoc station is independent of the climax.

Cronos stations is the same as Illos and it´s not the climax of game but just an explanation - climax for what we were trying to do and achieve of whole game but not the main goal :

Main goal is Stopping the Reapers and not building of Crucible, looking for Conduit, looking the way behind the Omega 4 relay - it´s just a tool for getting of main goal, not the main goal itself...

ME1 - getting to Conduit thanks to Vigil, Prothean Beacons
ME2 - getting to Collector´s base thanks to Direlict Reaper and encounters with Collectors
ME3 - building a Crucible thanks to multiple missions which were trying to collect a puzzle - Mars - Thessia - Cronos

Climax is the end of game, the last conversation - final conclusion - last step:
ME1 - Saren and Sovereign
ME2 - Reaper of Collector base and Arrival DLC chat with Harbinger
ME3 - TIM and Catalyst

You confusing climax with concluston.

Climax...
http://en.wikipedia....max_(narrative) 
turning point[/b] of a narrative[/b] work is its point of highest tension or drama or when the action starts in which the solution is given.[1][2] 

That would mean Virgil is part of the climax.

Don't think i'd confuse a "Concluston" with anything.

I erased the wrong letter. 

[Chaotic-Fusion]

@Dreman

Dramatic structure

Exposition - Rising action - Climax - Falling action - Resolution

Vigil is the climax. The catalyst is the resolution, our "ending". The climax isn't the end of a story, genius.

Your argument is beyond ridiculous.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 1.) I don't consider the Catalyst a character, and their motives basically changes nothing.

2.) Don't describe/muse/philosophize? Okay, I fail to see what's so wrong with doing so.

3.) Redemption to heroic character? Depends on your POV, so I can understand folks saying no to this.

4.) Tie loose ends: biggest problem with pre-EC, and one of the biggest pluses with EC DLC.

5.) Tone was not changed. At least not within ME3. If you think as much, you weren't paying attention in the first place.

6.) The ending is guilty of gimmicks, but this is not a game-breaking concern. ME has always been rather gimmicky as it is.


Meh. Nothing to see here, move along.

[dreman9999]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

@Dreman

Dramatic structure

Exposition - Rising action - Climax - Falling action - Resolution

Vigil is the climax. The catalyst is the resolution, our "ending". The climax isn't the end of a story, genius.

Your argument is beyond ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia....ive)#Resolution 
ResolutionIn the final phase of Freytag's five phase structure, there is a final confrontation between the protagonist and antagonist, where one or the other decisively wins. This phase is the story of that confrontation, of what leads up to it, of why it happens the way it happens, what it means, and what its long-term consequences are.


....That would mean the catalyst is not out of place...Wouldn't it?

Modifié par dreman9999, 18 septembre 2012 - 06:05 .

[David7204]

As I've said, people were foolish to not expect the Reapers to have a leader or creator. The Catalyst was not the problem, and would have been perfectly fine if his explanation was smoother and there was a satisfying ending.

[dreman9999]

David7204 wrote...

As I've said, people were foolish to not expect the Reapers to have a leader or creator. The Catalyst was not the problem, and would have been perfectly fine if his explanation was smoother and there was a satisfying ending.

Thank you. I did say this earilier.

[GreyLycanTrope]

dreman9999 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

@Dreman

Dramatic structure

Exposition - Rising action - Climax - Falling action - Resolution

Vigil is the climax. The catalyst is the resolution, our "ending". The climax isn't the end of a story, genius.

Your argument is beyond ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia....ive)#Resolution 
ResolutionIn the final phase of Freytag's five phase structure, there is a final confrontation between the protagonist and antagonist, where one or the other decisively wins. This phase is the story of that confrontation, of what leads up to it, of why it happens the way it happens, what it means, and what its long-term consequences are.


....That would mean the catalyst is not out of place...Wouldn't it?

No because he's still a new character.

[Chaotic-Fusion]

dreman9999 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

@Dreman

Dramatic structure

Exposition - Rising action - Climax - Falling action - Resolution

Vigil is the climax. The catalyst is the resolution, our "ending". The climax isn't the end of a story, genius.

Your argument is beyond ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia....ive)#Resolution 
ResolutionIn the final phase of Freytag's five phase structure, there is a final confrontation between the protagonist and antagonist, where one or the other decisively wins. This phase is the story of that confrontation, of what leads up to it, of why it happens the way it happens, what it means, and what its long-term consequences are.


....That would mean the catalyst is not out of place...Wouldn't it?

Read the first post again. Then tell me why the catalyst is out of place.

Hint: the so called "antagonist" is a new character introduced in the last 10 minutes.

[dreman9999]

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

@Dreman

Dramatic structure

Exposition - Rising action - Climax - Falling action - Resolution

Vigil is the climax. The catalyst is the resolution, our "ending". The climax isn't the end of a story, genius.

Your argument is beyond ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia....ive)#Resolution 
ResolutionIn the final phase of Freytag's five phase structure, there is a final confrontation between the protagonist and antagonist, where one or the other decisively wins. This phase is the story of that confrontation, of what leads up to it, of why it happens the way it happens, what it means, and what its long-term consequences are.


....That would mean the catalyst is not out of place...Wouldn't it?

No because he's still a new character.

He's every reaper at once and just a voice box. He doesn't change overall statement, goals or cocepts of the story.
Added, he still is doing everything Virgil does anyway.

[dreman9999]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

@Dreman

Dramatic structure

Exposition - Rising action - Climax - Falling action - Resolution

Vigil is the climax. The catalyst is the resolution, our "ending". The climax isn't the end of a story, genius.

Your argument is beyond ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia....ive)#Resolution 
ResolutionIn the final phase of Freytag's five phase structure, there is a final confrontation between the protagonist and antagonist, where one or the other decisively wins. This phase is the story of that confrontation, of what leads up to it, of why it happens the way it happens, what it means, and what its long-term consequences are.


....That would mean the catalyst is not out of place...Wouldn't it?

Read the first post again. Then tell me why the catalyst is out of place.

Hint: the so called "antagonist" is a new character introduced in the last 10 minutes.

He's every reaper at once.
Added he still is doing what Virgil did in ME1. It's what part of the story he came that's different.
He is still just a voice box.

Modifié par dreman9999, 18 septembre 2012 - 06:13 .

[CronoDragoon]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

@Dreman

Dramatic structure

Exposition - Rising action - Climax - Falling action - Resolution

Vigil is the climax. The catalyst is the resolution, our "ending". The climax isn't the end of a story, genius.

Your argument is beyond ridiculous.

Vigil is most certainly not the climax. He's the exposition.

[dreman9999]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

@Dreman

Dramatic structure

Exposition - Rising action - Climax - Falling action - Resolution

Vigil is the climax. The catalyst is the resolution, our "ending". The climax isn't the end of a story, genius.

Your argument is beyond ridiculous.

Vigil is most certainly not the climax. He's the exposition.

He's part of the fall action.

[Chaotic-Fusion]

dreman9999 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

@Dreman

Dramatic structure

Exposition - Rising action - Climax - Falling action - Resolution

Vigil is the climax. The catalyst is the resolution, our "ending". The climax isn't the end of a story, genius.

Your argument is beyond ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia....ive)#Resolution 
ResolutionIn the final phase of Freytag's five phase structure, there is a final confrontation between the protagonist and antagonist, where one or the other decisively wins. This phase is the story of that confrontation, of what leads up to it, of why it happens the way it happens, what it means, and what its long-term consequences are.


....That would mean the catalyst is not out of place...Wouldn't it?

Read the first post again. Then tell me why the catalyst is out of place.

Hint: the so called "antagonist" is a new character introduced in the last 10 minutes.

He's every reaper at once.
Added hestill is doing what Virgil did in ME1. Is what part of the story he came.
He is still just a voice box.

Assuming he is still doing the same Vigil does in ME (he's really not, but okay), they are still introduced at remarkably different times. Therein lies the problem as outlined in the OP. Vigil is fine as part of the climax, the Catalyst is not because he's part of the resolution.

He is not just every reaper at once, he is the A.I created by the Leviathans, who then created the reapers. He's a new character.

[GreyLycanTrope]

dreman9999 wrote...

He's every reaper at once and just a voice box. He doesn't change overall statement, goals or cocepts of the story.
Added, he still is doing everything Virgil does anyway.

We've been over the voice box thing already and you failed to respond to my previous statement during that discussion. He's doing more than Vigil, he is the antagonist Vigil was not.

[Chaotic-Fusion]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

@Dreman

Dramatic structure

Exposition - Rising action - Climax - Falling action - Resolution

Vigil is the climax. The catalyst is the resolution, our "ending". The climax isn't the end of a story, genius.

Your argument is beyond ridiculous.

Vigil is most certainly not the climax. He's the exposition.

I'm not sure where to put him, really. He provides exposition, sure. But exposition as outlined in the dramatic structure is the beginning of the story, it introduces the characters, setting, backstory, etc. 

[CronoDragoon]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

I'm not sure where to put him, really. He provides exposition, sure. But exposition as outlined in the dramatic structure is the beginning of the story, it introduces the characters, setting, backstory, etc. 

Oh, I see now. I misunderstood exposition as meaning exposition one typically gets towards the end.

To be honest I'm inclined to believe dreman that he's the start of the climax, where you learn the true motivations of the antagonist and are equipped with the means to defeat him.

[dreman9999]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

@Dreman

Dramatic structure

Exposition - Rising action - Climax - Falling action - Resolution

Vigil is the climax. The catalyst is the resolution, our "ending". The climax isn't the end of a story, genius.

Your argument is beyond ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia....ive)#Resolution 
ResolutionIn the final phase of Freytag's five phase structure, there is a final confrontation between the protagonist and antagonist, where one or the other decisively wins. This phase is the story of that confrontation, of what leads up to it, of why it happens the way it happens, what it means, and what its long-term consequences are.


....That would mean the catalyst is not out of place...Wouldn't it?

Read the first post again. Then tell me why the catalyst is out of place.

Hint: the so called "antagonist" is a new character introduced in the last 10 minutes.

He's every reaper at once.
Added hestill is doing what Virgil did in ME1. Is what part of the story he came.
He is still just a voice box.

Assuming he is still doing the same Vigil does in ME (he's really not, but okay), they are still introduced at remarkably different times. Therein lies the problem as outlined in the OP. Vigil is fine as part of the climax, the Catalyst is not because he's part of the resolution.

He is not just every reaper at once, he is the A.I created by the Leviathans, who then created the reapers. He's a new character.

1. Virgil is part of the fall action. 
http://en.wikipedia....#Falling_action 
Falling actionFrey-tag called this phase "falling action" in the sense that the loose ends are being tied up. However, it is often the time of greatest overall tension in the play, because it is the phase in which everything goes most wrong.In this phase, the villain has the upper hand. It seems that evil will triumph. The protagonist has never been further from accomplishing the goal. For Frey-tag, this is true both in tragedies and comedies, because both of these types of play classically show good winning over evil. The question is which side the protagonist has put himself on, and this may not be immediately clear to the audience.

2.He is every reapers at once. He tells you this.
"I embody the collective inteligence of the reapers."

3. The catalyst is also interchangable. You would have the same 3 choices even if BW dicided not to use the catalyst character. He is not the problem with the end of the game. They could have EDI give use the choices and it would not change to thechoices we get.

4. He is just there to exlplain the reapers. That's what make him like Virgil because he is there just to explain the protheans.

[GreyLycanTrope]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Oh, I see now. I misunderstood exposition as meaning exposition one typically gets towards the end.

To be honest I'm inclined to believe dreman that he's the start of the climax, where you learn the true motivations of the antagonist and are equipped with the means to defeat him.

Too bad he changed he argument a few post up, Vigil is now part of the falling action.

[dreman9999]

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

He's every reaper at once and just a voice box. He doesn't change overall statement, goals or cocepts of the story.
Added, he still is doing everything Virgil does anyway.

We've been over the voice box thing already and you failed to respond to my previous statement during that discussion. He's doing more than Vigil, he is the antagonist Vigil was not.

Your missing my point. He is like Virgil because he is there to expline the reapers like Virgil is there to explain the protheans and the cypher.
That is how they are the same.

[dreman9999]

Greylycantrope wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Oh, I see now. I misunderstood exposition as meaning exposition one typically gets towards the end.

To be honest I'm inclined to believe dreman that he's the start of the climax, where you learn the true motivations of the antagonist and are equipped with the means to defeat him.

Too bad he changed he argument a few post up, Vigil is now part of the falling action.

Fall action can be part of the climax.

[Chaotic-Fusion]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

I'm not sure where to put him, really. He provides exposition, sure. But exposition as outlined in the dramatic structure is the beginning of the story, it introduces the characters, setting, backstory, etc. 

Oh, I see now. I misunderstood exposition as meaning exposition one typically gets towards the end.

To be honest I'm inclined to believe dreman that he's the start of the climax, where you learn the true motivations of the antagonist and are equipped with the means to defeat him.

Vigil is probably the climax, the falling action is the confrontation with Saren which then leads to the final resolution. Though I'm really not sure.

[dreman9999]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

I'm not sure where to put him, really. He provides exposition, sure. But exposition as outlined in the dramatic structure is the beginning of the story, it introduces the characters, setting, backstory, etc. 

Oh, I see now. I misunderstood exposition as meaning exposition one typically gets towards the end.

To be honest I'm inclined to believe dreman that he's the start of the climax, where you learn the true motivations of the antagonist and are equipped with the means to defeat him.

Vigil is probably the climax, the falling action is the confrontation with Saren which then leads to the final resolution. Though I'm really not sure.

http://en.wikipedia....#Falling_action 
Falling actionFrey-tag called this phase "falling action" in the sense that the loose ends are being tied up. However, it is often the time of greatest overall tension in the play, because it is the phase in which everything goes most wrong.In this phase, the villain has the upper hand. It seems that evil will triumph. The protagonist has never been further from accomplishing the goal. For Frey-tag, this is true both in tragedies and comedies, because both of these types of play classically show good winning over evil. The question is which side the protagonist has put himself on, and this may not be immediately clear to the audience. 

The time we meet Vigil it seems Saran and Sovergin will win and Virgil in himself ties up all the loose plot points of the cypher, what the proethans did and why.
Virgil is part of the fall action.
The start of the climax is when the play goes to Illos.

Modifié par dreman9999, 18 septembre 2012 - 06:30 .

[Chaotic-Fusion]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Virgil is part of the fall action. 
http://en.wikipedia....#Falling_action 
Falling actionFrey-tag called this phase "falling action" in the sense that the loose ends are being tied up. However, it is often the time of greatest overall tension in the play, because it is the phase in which everything goes most wrong.In this phase, the villain has the upper hand. It seems that evil will triumph. The protagonist has never been further from accomplishing the goal. For Frey-tag, this is true both in tragedies and comedies, because both of these types of play classically show good winning over evil. The question is which side the protagonist has put himself on, and this may not be immediately clear to the audience.

2.He is every reapers at once. He tells you this.
"I embody the collective inteligence of the reapers."

3. The catalyst is also interchangable. You would have the same 3 choices even if BW dicided not to use the catalyst character. He is not the problem with the end of the game. They could have EDI give use the choices and it would not change to thechoices we get.

4. He is just there to exlplain the reapers. That's what make him like Virgil because he is there just to explain the protheans.

Sigh, changing your argument now, are you?

You were right the first time though, Vigil is part of the climax. The turning point, where we learn of the Protheans and of the conduit. 

No, he really is, along with the Synthesis nonsense, the problem with the endings.

Vigil provides explanation. The catalyst provides 3 choices. See the difference?

Modifié par Chaotic-Fusion, 18 septembre 2012 - 06:31 .

[Chaotic-Fusion]

dreman9999 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Oh, I see now. I misunderstood exposition as meaning exposition one typically gets towards the end.

To be honest I'm inclined to believe dreman that he's the start of the climax, where you learn the true motivations of the antagonist and are equipped with the means to defeat him.

Too bad he changed he argument a few post up, Vigil is now part of the falling action.

Fall action can be part of the climax.

No, it really can't.

[AresKeith]

Dreman I'll leave this metaphor said by the Starbrat " I'm as much as an AI as you are an animal"