161 réponses à ce sujet

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...
The entire point of this topic is that a good story follows the rules the op put up in his openung statement.

My point of state pulpfiction is that it oversteps all the rules of a story and succeeds.

Read the posts you relpy to. 

No one's disagreeing with you on this point.

We know Pulp Fiction is unconventional. No one disagrees.

Stories don't have to follow a strict set of rules like this. No one disagrees. 

Stories can work very well when doing something different. No one disagrees. 

Sit down, no one's contesting anything to do with f*cking Pulp Fiction. 

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Without that data for Virgil you would not beable to stop sovergin.

Then you never hear about it again. 

2.The catayst only explines the reapers and what the crucible does. The catayst does less to help Shepard then Virgil. He is only there for the player to understand the reapers.

It's the leader of the Reapers.

1. You put it in the system after you kill Saren. Your team yells at you to quickly put it in the system.

I'm talking about Vigil. Besides giving you a data file, which it most likely didn't even create, and dumping a heap-ton of information on you, Vigil has no affect on the plot. Its e

2.As I said before...Voicebox. There to expline the reapers.

Controls the Reapers. Created the Reapers. The raisin Shepard is there. Direct affect on other events. Motives extend beyond just telling you things. 

1. The catalyst does basicly the same thing. It justgives an info dump and allows you touse the crucible.

2.It there to tell you it's motives. That my poin that what I mean that it's just a voice box. In the end of the game all it does is tells you it's movtives and allows you to use the crucible.

[KLGChaos]

I agree with the OP. But he did forget one that I feel also works:

DO Resolve the central conflict. You don’t have to provide a happily-ever-after ending, but do try to uplift. Readers want to be uplifted, and editors try to give readers what they want.

It's hard to feel uplifted when committing genocide, forcing assimilation or sacrificing your soul to become a Reaper God because it's the only choices available.

[dreman9999]

KLGChaos wrote...

I agree with the OP. But he did forget one that I feel also works:

DO Resolve the central conflict. You don’t have to provide a happily-ever-after ending, but do try to uplift. Readers want to be uplifted, and editors try to give readers what they want.

It's hard to feel uplifted when committing genocide, forcing assimilation or sacrificing your soul to become a Reaper God because it's the only choices available.

You don't have toup lift the reaper at the end of the storyo have a good story. That would mean stories like Ender's game and Hamlit would be considers bad stories.

Having hard choices a the end of a story does not make it bad.

[Necrotron]

KLGChaos wrote...

I agree with the OP. But he did forget one that I feel also works:

DO Resolve the central conflict. You don’t have to provide a happily-ever-after ending, but do try to uplift. Readers want to be uplifted, and editors try to give readers what they want.

It's hard to feel uplifted when committing genocide, forcing assimilation or sacrificing your soul to become a Reaper God because it's the only choices available.

Indeed.  Not to mention, being forced to do so by the main villain you're fighting against.

Also, it's a video game, ending in a tragedy and forcing the player's character to pick one of three bad choices which sort of win but mostly just complete the main villain's objective is frustrating for a player.

Modifié par Bathaius, 18 septembre 2012 - 08:44 .

[DrwEddy]

Makes sense to me. Is it really that hard to produce a happy ending without much nihlism?

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

KLGChaos wrote...

I agree with the OP. But he did forget one that I feel also works:

DO Resolve the central conflict. You don’t have to provide a happily-ever-after ending, but do try to uplift. Readers want to be uplifted, and editors try to give readers what they want.

It's hard to feel uplifted when committing genocide, forcing assimilation or sacrificing your soul to become a Reaper God because it's the only choices available.

You don't have toup lift the reaper at the end of the storyo have a good story. That would mean stories like Ender's game and Hamlit would be considers bad stories.

Mass Effect is not either of those. 

Stop making bad comparisons. 

Having hard choices a the end of a story does not make it bad.

When they don't it most certainly does make it bad. 

[Mathias]

Hudathan wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

So every single story should follow the exact same structure and never do anything daring or unexpected? Stuff like this is why I rarely go to the movies anymore

Daring doesn't always pay off. Sometimes it falls flat on it's face.

That's subjective. Some people like it comfortable and familiar, some peope like to be surprised. A creator is free to do whatever they like. You are free to like it or not.

The Mass Effect series has always been daring in many ways, and they succeeded more often than not. If they wanted to play it safe to begin with, we wouldn't even have such a beloved series to begin with. Can't have it both ways.

Uh i would say in this case, that article is on point and pretty much lists the reasons why ME3's ending failed.

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 18 septembre 2012 - 09:52 .

[MegaSovereign]

If you're going to make this list the Bible of storytelling then I think it would be fair to say every ME game fails to meet this checklist.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Hudathan wrote...

So every single story should follow the exact same structure and never do anything daring or unexpected? Stuff like this is why I rarely go to the movies anymore

I'm not going to compare video games to fine art. Doing so is pretentious. Video games are their own art form. They are commissioned art. We the players are the commissioners. We are the ones who pay money for the art.

Doing the unexpected is fine. You know it sometimes pays to have someone look at your work ahead of time. You know, someone who isn't a direct report and who isn't afraid to tell you it's crap.

There was no peer review on the endings. And these endings weren't something daring and different. They were ripped off from Deus Ex. The EC added the new refuse from Deus Ex Human Revolution.

The story wasn't even original. It was ripped off from Star Control 2. SC2 was a damned fine game, but then Mac and Casey had to go add the Star Child and the Crucible to it to go for the Deus Ex ending. It ruined the whole thing. Shepard became a shell of what (s)he was. The only ending you see the real Shepard is in the EC's refuse, and then they give you a critical mission failure.

Hiding behind "artistic integrity" while saying you're doing something new and innovative was such heavy bull**** I'm still trying to scrape it off my hip waders.

I've got some suggestions for Mac and Casey:

* this is a story driven role playing video game.
* Take some classes on how to write a story.
* Learn how to write a plot. Learn to write an introduction. Learn how to write an ending.
* Leave the player wanting more.
* Don't leave the player wanting to break your disk in half and demanding refunds from the stores. That should be a big signal you failed.

* So I would strongly suggest if you're going to have multiple ways a game ends that you have at least one of them that leaves a player with the "Hell Yeah!!!" feeling. -- this feeling will sell more of your future products. Leaving a player wanting to break a disk in half and demanding a refund will not.

* Get peer review from independent editors.
* If your ending fails as badly as this one did, don't patronize your fan base by saying "you didn't understand it", and fall back on "artistic integrity" and all that bull**** for a month, then say we'll clarify it then serve them the same **** on a fancy plate (see the Extended Cut as an example)
* Instead say "We ****ed up. We're sorry. We'll make it right. Give us four months and you'll be happy." Then write your asses off and give your fans a brand new ending that makes sense that is different than the first one because if it resembles the first one it will be rejected.
* Issue the new ending as a patch, not as DLC.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 18 septembre 2012 - 10:21 .

[Mahrac]

What was dreman's original argument? I can't see it through the red herrings.

[Mathias]

MegaSovereign wrote...

If you're going to make this list the Bible of storytelling then I think it would be fair to say every ME game fails to meet this checklist.

First off a lot of what the article says is common sense. Secondly we're talking about a trilogy here, and therefore ME1 and ME2 can't be looked at as a conclusion to the story. But even as standalone games, i don't see how their endings fail to meet the checklist, at least fail as much as ME3 did.