350 réponses à ce sujet

[berelinde]

Personally, I have absolutely no objection to sexy attire for male or female NPCs, if it suits their persona. I am especially fond of male eye candy, but they all seem to be covered from neck to knees, sadly... except for Varric. We need skimpier clothing for men of all races.

Given my apprehension about other areas, it's kind of hard for me to get excited about superficial things like clothing and armor designs, but one thing I would like is more variety for the protagonist's wardrobe. You know how it goes. You get a great robe (or armor), you try it on your PC, and it looks like a nightgown. The least flattering flannel nightgown imaginable, with a matching wooly hood. How about adding a tailor to the game who can alter the base model for armors? Got a frumpy mage robe? Take it to the tailor, where it will be altered to suit a protagonist who likes to wear something sexy herself. Why should companions get all the fun? And why should the protagonist be prevented from showing some skin?

Sure, not every player will want a PC with exposed vitals, but that's why making it an optional alteration works so well. If you like your characters to be all covered up, leave it alone. If you want a mage mini-dress, go to the tailor.

[deuce985]

It's funny seeing both sexes going back and forth on this.

Kinda OT, but this kinda reminds me of...

Why Men and Women Can't be Friends

:innocent:

[The Hierophant]

deuce985 wrote...

It's funny seeing both sexes going back and forth on this.

Kinda OT, but this kinda reminds me of...

Why Men and Women Can't be Friends

:innocent:

Meh, the issue should have been about the practicality of a melee companion's iconic look in battle.

[Rawgrim]

Being able to customize your companions would solve this issue in no time.

[deuce985]

The Hierophant wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

It's funny seeing both sexes going back and forth on this.

Kinda OT, but this kinda reminds me of...

Why Men and Women Can't be Friends

:innocent:

Meh, the issue should have been about the practicality of a melee companion's iconic look in battle.

lol

Yea, but it's only there to show you that both sexes have different perspectives/opinions on certain subjects. Neither side is right or wrong. They just don't understand each other.

[philippe willaume]

marshalleck wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

when in reality I can't help but feel like it's motivated more by discomfort and insecurity with sexuality. Kind of like the same scorn heaped on people who "flaunt their sexuality" might just have a lot to do with nobody wanting to see the person doing the hating in tight or revelaing clothing. 

Oh my. I assure you, I am not uncomfortable or insecure about sex or sexuality. Why would it bother me in some Victorian fashion to see a nearly naked female body? I see a wholly naked one in the mirror every day! *now that everyone thinks I stare at myself admiringly in the mirror on a daily basis....*

I object to the objectification of female characters in video games. I am female; I was born this way and didn't choose my sex. But yet I'm constantly objectified by my culture, which tells me to dress a certain way (try buying work trousers that can be worn without heels), look a certain way (because I have short pink hair and don't wear make-up I get lots of looks ... of the non-sexual variety), and act a certain way. In essense, I'm supposed to dress, look, and act in a way that pleases a straight male. 

So when I play a video game, I can escape from this world. I'm not defined by my sex anymore. But when I see female characters being depicted the same way the world wants ME to look and act, it is frustrating, even depressing.

I hope I've managed to explain my POV 

Okay. That's your take on it, and that's fine, but I'm not convinced that everyone who whines about "chainmail bikinis" in Dragon Age (!?!?) has given it as much thought as you have.

hello

Being a straight male, I would hope that we moved from that.  The gender role based society seems to be a thing of the past.  I mean most of us manly, manly ,manly man do the washing,  help in the house and see our wife/significant other  as an equal
partner rather  than a minor share holder in the business. 

I had plenty of women as my direct boss some were  amzingly  good some were abysmal, just like men.  May be
it is my time in the armed forces were we were all in uniform. but  I have expected my colleague male or female
to dress and wear make up as they bloody dam whished.

I am not that special so I am relatively certain that I am the only one that way inclined. 
I guess, it depends what part of the world we live in has an influence though


That being said  unfortunately is see where MMG is coming from.  When I mention that there are women practicing fencing at my classes,  it is quite clear that a fair bit of people, men and women, thinks they must be of the Mary Poopins inclination when I mention that they are quite good be in fencing or in wrestling.
 

Now  on the topic at hand , you don't need to look like shwazy with a necklace and earring to be a good female fencer.

For example i have female student, 6 foot for a 8-9 stone, and she launches me about a mat away when we practices oumpa (hip thrust when you are in someone front mount)  and I am 5.11 for 220 lbs.

or there are guy about 5.5 8-9 stone are remarkably good with a sword, knife or Messer or staff.

True size does matter but the longer the weapons the less it does.

 At least inDA at lest we don't have plate wonder bra and mini-skirt  with visible white panty and
the dudes are not Conan the barbarian look a like. 
as wel armours, despites being slightly unpractical, do not have boobs

what i am try to get at is that MMG do have a valid point but may be DA is probably not the main culprits

  
PS when looking at a naked body, looking at  your does not really count....just saying

Modifié par philippe willaume, 18 septembre 2012 - 10:28 .

[The Hierophant]

deuce985 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

It's funny seeing both sexes going back and forth on this.

Kinda OT, but this kinda reminds me of...

Why Men and Women Can't be Friends

:innocent:

Meh, the issue should have been about the practicality of a melee companion's iconic look in battle.

lol

Yea, but it's only there to show you that both sexes have different perspectives/opinions on certain subjects. Neither side is right or wrong. They just don't understand each other.

Lulz at the video, especially the lady's reaction at the end. 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 18 septembre 2012 - 10:22 .

[berelinde]

deuce985 wrote...

It's funny seeing both sexes going back and forth on this.

Kinda OT, but this kinda reminds me of...

Why Men and Women Can't be Friends

:innocent:

Who do you think the women are? I bet a lot of your guesses are wrong.

[marshalleck]

philippe willaume wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

when in reality I can't help but feel like it's motivated more by discomfort and insecurity with sexuality. Kind of like the same scorn heaped on people who "flaunt their sexuality" might just have a lot to do with nobody wanting to see the person doing the hating in tight or revelaing clothing. 

Oh my. I assure you, I am not uncomfortable or insecure about sex or sexuality. Why would it bother me in some Victorian fashion to see a nearly naked female body? I see a wholly naked one in the mirror every day! *now that everyone thinks I stare at myself admiringly in the mirror on a daily basis....*

I object to the objectification of female characters in video games. I am female; I was born this way and didn't choose my sex. But yet I'm constantly objectified by my culture, which tells me to dress a certain way (try buying work trousers that can be worn without heels), look a certain way (because I have short pink hair and don't wear make-up I get lots of looks ... of the non-sexual variety), and act a certain way. In essense, I'm supposed to dress, look, and act in a way that pleases a straight male. 

So when I play a video game, I can escape from this world. I'm not defined by my sex anymore. But when I see female characters being depicted the same way the world wants ME to look and act, it is frustrating, even depressing.

I hope I've managed to explain my POV 

Okay. That's your take on it, and that's fine, but I'm not convinced that everyone who whines about "chainmail bikinis" in Dragon Age (!?!?) has given it as much thought as you have.

hello

Being a straight male, I would hope that we moved from that.  The gender role based society seems to be a thing of the past.  I mean most of us manly, manly ,manly man do the washing,  help in the house and see our wife/significant other  as an equal
partner rather  than a minor share holder in the business. 

I had plenty of women as my direct boss some were  amzingly  good some were abysmal, just like men.  May be
it is my time in the armed forces were we were all in uniform. but  I have expected my colleague male or female
to dress and wear make up as they bloody dam whished.

I am not that special so I am relatively certain that I am the only one that way inclined. 
I guess, it depends what part of the world we live in has an influence though


That being said  unfortunately is see where MMG is coming from.  When I mention that there are women practicing fencing at my classes,  it is quite clear that a fair bit of people, men and women, thinks they must be of the Mary Poopins inclination when I mention that they are quite good be in fencing or in wrestling.
 

Now  on the topic at hand , you don't need to look like shwazy with a necklace and earring to be a good female fencer.

For example i have female student, 6 foot for a 8-9 stone, and she launches me about a mat away when we practices oumpa (hip thrust when you are in someone front mount)  and I am 5.11 for 220 lbs.

or there are guy about 5.5 8-9 stone are remarkably good with a sword, knife or Messer or staff.

True size does matter but the longer the weapons the less it does.

 At least inDA at lest we don't have plate wonder bra and mini-skirt  with visible white panty and
the dudes are not Conan the barbarian look a like. 
as wel armours, despites being slightly unpractical, do not have boobs

what i am try to get at is that MMG do have a valid point but may be DA is probably not the main culprits

  
PS when looking at a naked body, looking at  your does not really count....just saying

That was a pretty cool  long rambling story, bro. What was the point? That I'm somehow sexist because I think Dragon Age needs to take more inspiration from highly talented and respected pioneers of fantasy art genre? 

Frank Frazetta was a master of the human form, both male and female. He could also do some amazing armors (see Death Dealer, Outlaw of Torn, Eternal CHampion). This is not a bad thing.

[cindercatz]

motomotogirl wrote...

I object to the objectification of female characters in video games. I am female; I was born this way and didn't choose my sex. But yet I'm constantly objectified by my culture, which tells me to dress a certain way (try buying work trousers that can be worn without heels), look a certain way (because I have short pink hair and don't wear make-up I get lots of looks ... of the non-sexual variety), and act a certain way. In essense, I'm supposed to dress, look, and act in a way that pleases a straight male. 

I sympathize, but I have a couple of things to point out.

Objectification I agree with. Every character should be a complete, rounded character who supports a particular storytelling function. But what we see in games like BioWare's is idealization, not objectification (for the most part), and I'd argue that male characters tend to be idealized (and objectified) proportionally to the property's expected female player base, and female characters are treated similarly. As the female player base grows, that means the scale tips the other way. What should happen, though, is that we get a more natural depiction of both men and women, not idealization of either.

The second thing is a problem with our society, but it's corporatization, not sexualization. It's the fashion industry. It's the feminist power image. I guarantee you that I, as a man, don't prefer women in heels to bare feet or a good tennis shoe. I'm not saying anybody should be barefoot because of any social context or whatever, not at all, just a question of aesthetics; I like natural. I'm perfectly attracted to short pink hair (being a representation of a counter-culture mindset, which I also display with often long hair), and I'm not personally attracted to chicks wearing tons of make-up either. I prefer none at all, because then you get real natural beauty, not a plastic construction.

Don't assume or listen to anybody that tells you our visual sexual roles in a box, that our society's corporate world promotes, have anything to do with male preference of how women should look and act. Consider that the fashion industry that defines those particular things is not by and large run or even influenced by straight males. I've met a few fashion designers, even dated one (went to an art school), and I never once saw any of them considering what a straight male would be most attracted to, unless you're talking about skimpy sleepware or swimsuits, maybe.

[Dr. wonderful]

Emzamination wrote...

Dr. wonderful wrote...


Does she even count? Last I check, she was pretty much stuck inside that suit, and I heard something about her face but...ah forget it.


What about that  Morinth?

Morinth was peddled as being the ultimate seductress but upon meeting her I couldn't help but feel that reputation was highly exaggerated.She wore a leather body suit and even that wasn't appetizing, that's about it.

Ah, Informed sexy. 

Fair enough.

[Sylvianus]

I totally agree. I don't want to be forced into a masculine woman while I am playing a female hero.

[Direwolf0294]

This is one of the things I'm actually not worried about because it's BioWare. If it were another company, yeah I'd be worried we'd end up with all the women running around in bikinis, but it's not. When BioWare's sexualised a character in DA, Morrigan, Isabela and Varric for example, it's made sense for the character. Morrigan was in that tattered rags swamp witch type look, Isabela was a pirate who liked to have lots of sex and Varric was similar to Isabela, at least in the roguish elements (I'm not sure how much sex he liked to have). The only time I can really think of BioWare needlessly over sexualising a character was Samara. I liked the character, but I was really disappointed they decided to dress her like a pole dancer.

General armour design's also been pretty good. My female Warden tank in DA:O actually looked like a heavily armoured tank in that game.

So, yeah, I don't think we have anything to worry about, but we might, so BioWare, please don't needlessly over sexualize characters and make female armour look like bikinis.

[cindercatz]

berelinde wrote...

Personally, I have absolutely no objection to sexy attire for male or female NPCs, if it suits their persona. I am especially fond of male eye candy, but they all seem to be covered from neck to knees, sadly... except for Varric. We need skimpier clothing for men of all races.

Given my apprehension about other areas, it's kind of hard for me to get excited about superficial things like clothing and armor designs, but one thing I would like is more variety for the protagonist's wardrobe. You know how it goes. You get a great robe (or armor), you try it on your PC, and it looks like a nightgown. The least flattering flannel nightgown imaginable, with a matching wooly hood. How about adding a tailor to the game who can alter the base model for armors? Got a frumpy mage robe? Take it to the tailor, where it will be altered to suit a protagonist who likes to wear something sexy herself. Why should companions get all the fun? And why should the protagonist be prevented from showing some skin?

Sure, not every player will want a PC with exposed vitals, but that's why making it an optional alteration works so well. If you like your characters to be all covered up, leave it alone. If you want a mage mini-dress, go to the tailor.

Great idea for clothing (robes, casual clothes, formal), but I don't think that's doable in terms of altering the base model. That's crazy difficult to do on the fly.. But have a lot of style options so we can have a similar effect.

[philippe willaume]

marshalleck wrote...

snip

hello

Nope not necessarily bro

just that she has a point, just as you have.

yes you are right,  picturse from the like Boris V or Frank F have an intrinsic artistic value and i am pretty sure that you see it that way.

Now it is equally true that 
for a certain part of the population across gender the presentation of women scantly closed  is a re-enforcement
of the relative worth of women in the society, just as women in "manly activity" usually exceed by men are seems a behaviour outside the norm of society.

 
You don't need to adhere to those view, in fact  you and I  probably don't  but, it is still there.

Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 18 septembre 2012 - 11:08 .

[Carmen_Willow]

So long as Bioware writes well rounded (in the figurative sense) characters, I don't care what their chest size or muscle mass is. It would be nice if we could choose our body size as you could in Skyrim for our own character.

I did find Miranda's white jump suit and Isabela's g-string a bit much, but I am certain the fellows didn't mind. Just be sure to give us sexy guys like Nathaniel...after all...all's fair, right? And more men with a "lean and hungry look" would be great. (You know, Hugh Laurie type faces, raw boned, etc.).

Give me smart characters and characters with depth who aren't cardboard cutouts, and I'll be fine. I didn't find the elves particularly attractive physically, but I definitely found Fenris' intelligence sexy.

BTW, I loved the DA 2 rogue and mage armors and outfits for the most part. I wish you could upgrade the ones you really loved and keep them. Didn't play a warrior all the way through so I don't know what the armor looks like on women. [edited for spelling]

Modifié par Carmen_Willow, 18 septembre 2012 - 11:08 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Just a note on this comment:

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...
I felt like she was a total lesbian (non lipstick variety) the entire time, and that really didn't fit into the persona that I was trying to create for her. 

 

As well as this one:

Sylvianus wrote...

I totally agree. I don't want to be forced into a masculine woman while I am playing a female hero.

Women and men both come in all manner of shapes, sizes, shades, and appearances. While people may see certain traits as being "masculine" or "feminine," much of our perception of that comes from social conditioning, and decades of stereotypes. People are simply people - with all of the variety therein.  

If default Hawke of either gender did not fit into a player's idea of who he/she wanted that character to be, or look, the player could easily change the PC's appearance after the prologue.

[cindercatz]

piloteyre wrote...

Well, I mean, there's a shirtless Fenris/Anders mod, and I'm pretty sure there's some Alistair specific sex mods up on the Nexus for female PCs, so it's not like naked guys aren't something women (and gay men) want. I would never argue that both men and women LI's aren't idealized, for sure. I don't know. I feel like there's a whole nature vs.nurture, cultural debate in here somewhere, but I'm just not up to teasing it out today (probably to everyone's benefit, ha.)

just saw your edit: yeah, Cullen.  I totally don't get Cullen at all, so no comment, LOL.  Like I said, I won't argue that there's no female geared fanservice, even if some of it utterly confuses this one.

LOL, yeah, confusing to me too.

[Sylvianus]

If you want her to be sexy, you should have sexy outfit choices. If you want her to be more of a tomboy, then you have masculine outfit choices. I don't see why there can't be both for the DA3 protag, whether male or female. If a male wants to crossdress - let him. If a female wants to have her boobs hanging out like Morrigan - let her.

Sorry if it wasn't clear, I agree there. I don't need a female hero that walks like a man, and with male armor. The outfit in Mota, was made for malehawk, and didn't fit at all my femhawk.

If some people need manly female pcs, that's their opinion. But for me, My female pc doesn't need to be copy / paste compared to my male pc. She doesn't has to prove anything. I was absolutely fine with femshep who is absolutely badass and my female warden. I like my female pcs, as female pc, simply.  Don't need a male clone. So, I hope Bioware will give both, and everyone will be happy.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 18 septembre 2012 - 11:20 .

[TheRealJayDee]

Maverick827 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Funny how some people get all up in arms about chainmail bikinis, but have no problem at all with Conan striding into battle bare-chested.

Assuming Conan has access to armor and chooses not to wear it into to battle, then I would say that's just as silly. 

Original Conan from Robert E. Howard's stories did wear armor from time to time, especially for larger battles.

As for the over-sexualization of characters in Bioware games: Isabela with (at least the option for) pants would have been perfectly fine. As it was it was more than a little silly.

I don't actually care about what they do in DA3 as long as it's not completely over the top and doesn't concern returning characters. I still can't get over what they did with Ashley's face (I can't even really say what it is, the face just lost all it's appeal to me in ME3) and her ridiculous 'uniform'. And we know these changes didn't have any reason but the designers trying to make her moar sexy. Wearing the hair in a highly impractical fashion and dressing in selfmade fantasy-uniforms is not a sign of convincing character devlopement to me.

[mesmerizedish]

Sylvianus wrote...

The outfit in Mota, was made for malehawk, and didn't fit at all my femhawk.

That is 100% John Epler's fault.

Also there is literally no such thing as "men's clothing." There hasn't been "men's clothing" since women started wearing pants. It's just clothing (that looks fab on women).

[Kidd]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

I'm a woman and I hated how frumpy and masculine fem Hawke was. (...) If a female wants to have her boobs hanging out like Morrigan - let her. 

What part of swaying a butt like that is masculine to you? o_o;

And is femininity defined by having boobs hanging out? Non-mage LadyHawkes dress in armour cause being killed kinda sucks and armour helps lower the risks of that happening by a lot. That's not very masculine of her, to prefer life over flaunting mammaries. As for the mages, most armours in the game are dresses, some of which are pretty beautiful. While I've nothing against men wearing dresses, I don't think the masculine stereotype includes such garments.

[AsheraII]

Don't you dare remove my metallikini!