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[RainedOver]

 So, I am writing a DA:O/DA:2 fanfiction that takes place in DA:O with RogueF!Hawke and Fenris. Basically I'm trying to keep it as cannon as possible, but instead of Hawke making it to Kirkwall, her family gets killed at Lothering and she ends up heading east to the Brecillian Forest. Fenris has already betrayed the Fog Warriorrs to Danarius, and fled to Fereldan, ending up cursed by a rabid werewolf having been mistaken for a Dalish and is now stuck in the B.Forest.

I've got two chapters posted already, and so far I have it written the way I want, heck, I even have a vague plot line for the entire story(which I try to keep with DA:O plotline) so that everything is realistic and could actually happen. My problem is, figuring out how to develope the relationship between mute Hawke(she will heal) and werewolf Fenris without them seeming fake or forced. I know I need to do some character building before I even work on building their relationship, but I'm at a loss as how to do it.

So far Hawke doesn't know it but Fenris saved her life in the beginning, and he's trying to keep her away from him so she doesn't end up like him. However, she is stubborn/curious, lost all of her family, and woke up to a camp full of strange mostly friendly Dalish, while he seems to know something she doesn't. 

Any thoughts on how they would interact in the beginning/build a relationship? I definitely want to keep Fenris to his character(though a bit more wild and protective), but Hawke, I just don't know how I want her to act yet :/

[sylvanaerie]

Well, first of all there is no 'canon' per se unless you mean "Blight was stopped" and "mage/templar war was sparked". Beyond that, I say have fun with the story and don't worry so much about being canon. What you should focus on instead of trying to follow some Bioware canon is telling your own story, but keep it lore-friendly. Having Dalish take in a strange, injured human seems a bit far fetched to me (especially considering how Zathrian felt about humans) and even if she were severely injured and Lanaya spoke up for her, she would only be tolerated only as long as it took to heal then the elves would kick her out. Is this a different tribe who is tending to her? They may be more tolerant, though even the Dalish in the Origin tale had no affection for humans. Marethari seemed to have respect for Duncan (as a Grey Warden), but the only reason Zathrian's clan tolerated the warden was because he/she actually could help them with the werewolf problem.

I like the idea of Fenris as a werewolf (the name Danarius gave him meaning "wolf"). I take it you're going for a 'beauty and the beast' flavor of the tale? Is he like a more traditional werewolf who changes with the full moon or a full time wolfed out elf like the ones in Origins? Why not have him take care of her himself? No Dalish clan will let him get near them if he's all wolfed out since they are at war with the werewolves. This will provide conflict as he tries to help her, but knows that he's not safe to be around with the rage inside him. And he has no one he can take her to. Isolation will allow you to build on their relationship without the outside influences of other people, and create conflict as he tries to protect her from not just the things in the forest, but from his own raging nature.

You will need to build the story of their relationship up from scratch since you're going outside the storyline of DA2, provide your own conflict for the tale/setting you're establishing for them. And there are situations that may throw a monkey wrench in the mix. What happens when the Warden comes to BForest? Will he break the curse, freeing Fenris, or will he kill the wolves/elves, dooming Fenris to beast form forever?

My recommendation is fix the mute problem as quickly as possible if you are still going with it.  Why is she mute?  Did she injure her vocal chords?  Or is she suffering from PTSD?  Communication will be essential to establishing their relationship since they will need to depend on each other through the conflicts of the story.

And, of course, Danarius is still after him for the markings, possibly tracking him through them (as he assumes in DA2).

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 20 septembre 2012 - 01:28 .

[RainedOver]

First off, thank you! My plot has been missing this, I just couldn't figure out what it was.

By "Canon" I mean sticks with the other characters and plot line pretty well, I like to add details from the original plot I think some people either overlooked or haven't touched on yet. I like taking ideas and running with them, but making them as plausible as possible.

Not so much "Beauty and the Beast", though I do love that movie :3 And not Twilight or anything (no offense to anyone) He's one like in Origins, fully wolfed out always, but he still retains his Lyrium markings. And since their curse was magic/fade related and Fenris is lined in Lyrium (Which Danarius could use as his personal battery) it twisted and fed the curse a bit. But only in the way that it made him a bit larger and stronger than the average, he remembers himself where the others had Witherfang to help (even though he remembers himself he still doesn't trust that he wouldn't hurt her) while being more in tune with his beast as he himself already acts on instincts. He is also still able to put his fist through chests. Swiftrunner kind of hates his guts because Witherfang(a forest spirit from the Fade) has a soft spot for him (lyrium) and he feels threatened by that as well as the strength and dominance Fenris puts off, since S.Runner is the alpha.

Right now the elves aren't doing much, there is one in particular that is dead set on getting rid of Hawke in anyway possible, but for now Zathrian is simply playing neutral, while his second, Lanaya, plays healer and go between until Hawke is fully up to par. At the end of chapter 1 Hawke gets her throat sliced pretty bad, and I figure that wound would be a bit trickier to heal since it involved the vocal chords, so it's a half healed scar right now, while her voice mends.

I do plan on setting her up against the elves a bit, but I don't want to make them the easy "bad guys". I like the idea of Fenris taking her away from them sooner than later, I may just have him isolate her for a while. But I do want her to interact with the other werewolves a bit, I love the way packs work, and I want to incorporate more wolf like behavior than just "savage beasts that want to kill everything!". Some probably wont like her, most will be curious though, but I want to touch on their wolf instincts, like grouping together, importance of touch, scent, following leads, protecting their own, fighting for the top, etc. while the omegas just try to keep everyone happy. Fenris is not above this, as he has these instincts too, even if he doesn't like them, I want him to be treated as part of the pack even if he is a bit ostracized and skewed as to where he stands.

Hawke will regain her voice soon, I just don't know if I want to wait one more story night to do so though, and then have her and Fenris caught talking a bit in the woods by one of the elves, or maybe just do it sooner rather than later?

Also, yes, of course Danarius is still after him But I don't know if I want him to meet up while Fenris is still werewolf and be all crazy mage going "My precious pet, look at you, a force to be reckoned with! No mage will ever dare attack me with you around as such a glorious figure of strength!" or after... ? I am not sure where to tread from this point, right now I'm at Hawke and Fenris' second meeting, I don't know where I want to take it from here (I planned ahead, it's getting to the 'ahead' part that I'm having trouble with)

Here's the link to the story and what I have posted so far- 
http://www.fanfictio...sty-in-Gestures 

Modifié par RainedOver, 20 septembre 2012 - 05:41 .

[sylvanaerie]

Yea, i've had this problem in my writing before too, got plot points all outlined just getting through to where I want the story to go is excrutiating. I'd rather stick my head in the car door and slam it a few times, at that point it would be more entertaining than trying to write something when the muse is being a fickle wench.

I love a good "Beauty and the Beast" tale but put me down as a vote for 'no twilight'.  OMG I hate that book/movie.  Stephanie Meyer should be on meds.

I'll read what you have posted after I get back from running round town today as I have quite a few errands to attend to first.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 20 septembre 2012 - 11:22 .

[RainedOver]

Sounds good, thank you

[sylvanaerie]

**Edited as new thoughts came to me**

Stupid internet was out all day (working on something along the lines outside somewhere between me and signal). Finally was able to get on and read the first two chapters. An auspicious beginning, I like it. When she was first rescued by a white haired, yellow eyed being for a moment I forgot who it was supposed to be, and thought Flemeth--wtf is Flemeth doing here? LOL Then immediately remembered and laughed at myself. Though I knew the particulars, I had already gotten so into the story I had forgotten and just enjoyed the tale.

The deaths of her family were well done, and I found myself tearing up for each of them, especially Bethany and Brumear. And it kind of mirrors DA2 when you lose one sibling near Lothering, the other later to the Blight (if they go with you into the deep roads). I liked the little parallel there. You have a talent for bringing out the emotion in scenes, and immersing the reader in your world.  The battles you described were well written, allowing me to get a clear image in my head of the action.  I wish the game had given you something like this instead of starting off with the family on the run.  While the start is probably more dramatic, throwing you into fights immediately, it comes off feeling incomplete with Hawke and family already fleeing darkspawn.  It wouldn't have had to be that long either, but it was (IMO) a missed opportunity from Bioware for the player to get the know the sibling who dies outside Lothering first rather than losing him/her 10 minutes into the game, since Carver is in Ostagar with the rogue/warrior and Bethany at home with Leandra and the mage Hawke.

I liked the reactions in the camp. You can see Zathrian is guarded, not as welcoming as he looks. From Lanaya's gentle healer's reaction, the welcoming of a child (both are more open to an injured stranger) to the angry young man (I take it he lost a loved one to the werewolves?), showing a wide range of believable responses to the strange human in their midst.


I'm not going to criticize the complacency the Hawke family has with the influx of refugees and the approaching darkspawn since the entire point was to kill off the family and isolate Marion.  She's obviously not as intuitive as DA2's protagonist, and, unlike Flemeth, can't predict the future.  She's still a very likeable, believeable character, and it was done in a believable, well paced manner.

That said, I also have a few (hopefully constructive) criticisms. Mostly my problems have to do with the pacing in Chapter 2 and some sticky story logic issues.

1) That the Dalish gave her back her weapons I found to be unbelievable. She's an injured, and potentially dangerous stranger (a shemlen as well), and they trust her with her weapons, immediately upon waking? Armor they may have returned, since there's a size disparity and they probably had nothing she could wear, but weapons I wouldn't see coming back until she's proven she won't hurt them (at the earliest). Dalish have a long history with shemlen, little of it being good.  Also, she's completely unguarded?  Zathrian may have allowed her to stay with them for the time being till she's improved, but considering his hatred/distrust of shems I wouldn't see him allowing her free run of their camp without some kind of guard.  Even the Warden is regarded with some suspicion (and downright hostility from some of the Dalish) before 'proving him/herself' to the camp by helping them with various little side quests.  And this from a people who respect Wardens, regardless of race.

2) I like that she feels a connection with Fenris already as well. Unconsciously, she knows she can trust him not to hurt her, even if consciously she still doubts it. Enough to make her do something so foolish as to chase after him in the woods.

That said, it feels a bit rushed in the pacing to me (would you chase after a strange beast when you're barely able to stand?), but as I don't know the length of your tale, perhaps it's just right.  She just seems too trusting too soon, despite she went out there with her daggers (see above note about those and my issues with the pacing of trust).  Maybe instead, as she heals, she can 'feel' him nearby watching her, drawn to her, but wanting to stay away.  Maybe the elves begin to trust her a little and let her hunt/gather in the forest for them (better to risk the shemlen than their own hunters--and Zathrian has little control over what she does really, and she's going to feel a need to make herself useful to them as their supplies dwindle and all are forbidden to enter the woods by Zathrian--except her), and you can have scenes over the next few days where she becomes more aware of Fenris near her, but always just out of reach when she tries to seek him out.  This will allow  you to build the story (and the tension) a little as she grows more familiar with him near her.  He doesn't make any hostile moves, and seems almost shy in his instincts to protect her.  This also mirrors the behavior of wolves, drawn to social groups, but shy if they are the outcast. This will also allow them to grow closer, and remove the risk of him getting peppered by arrows as he gets near the camp, and may also allow the elves enough time to grow to trust her to come and go as she pleases without being constantly watched.

I almost hoped all that she would get the first couple of chapters was a glimpse of golden eyes watching from the darkness, or a flash of white fur, building up gradually to the meeting instead of her running after him (with her injuries) and actually having a face to face so quickly.

3) The ease with which she seems to convey her feelings seems a bit forced from him.  Fenris isn't the most empathetic creature, often sticking his foot in his mouth and apologizing after, and here he seems to almost be reading her mind.  It's making the muteness seem 'contrived' as a plot device to keep Marion from talking, but she still manages to get her point across to people, and they understand perfectly.    Perhaps you need to have less understanding from them (unless she's going to carry a slate and chalk around to communicate), to make it more believable. This will also add some conflict to the muteness as she grows frustrated trying to communicate beyond simple needs/desires.  Broad ideas maybe yes, but the finer nuances of conversation are going to be harder to convey.  The TV series "Switched at Birth" has a few deaf cast members and conveys well the stumbling blocks between speaking and non speaking people.  Or just look at "Planet of the Apes" and the way Charlton Heston's character grows frustrated when trying to speak to the chimp scientist with his injured throat, prior to him getting his hands on a notepad and pencil.

The only thing that seems to bother her about the communication gap is that the Dalish sprinkle a few elvhen in their conversations with her that she has trouble understanding, not that she has stronger needs/desires she can't express beyond the most basic.

This doesn't have to be a long and drawn out thing, she may even get her voice back in a few days, (one to two chapters depending on how long you want her muted) enough to speak roughly anyway, especially with further magical healing.  But it comes across in Chapter 2 as if it were no more hinderance than a broken nail.

4) Since this is from Marion's PoV it's going to be hard to build on it from Fenris' side where it feels natural.  I kind of wish you had put him coming upon her from his point of view, and thinking "I'm too late" *hears intake of breath* "Not dead, where can I take her?" and showing the reader how he managed to get her to the Dalish, allowing the reader to see his side of the tale as well.  This would have been an excellent way for the reader to get into his head at the start, unfortunately it was missed .  

With her waking up in their camp as she does, and the ease with which she trusts him, the Dalish trust her, it makes it feel like I completely missed an entire chapter.  I am thinking you wanted to build the suspense of the reader for "Who is her rescuer" at the end of Chapter 1, but then completely erase all the mystery in chapter 2.  Perhaps you will be able to tell his POV in a later conversation.  Battling off the darkspawn, maybe even having a confrontation with what'shisface, (the alpha werewolf), if he tried to bring her to Witherfang first for healing?  Being he's not Dalish and has little to no connection to them, beyond that they are elves, he may not have thought of them first.  Of course, that's assuming he even knows about Witherfang.  And there was the danger to him of getting close enough to the camp to bring her there, without getting peppered with Dalish hunter's arrows (yes, I like that phrase) . 

We the readers/players know they are more than dumb animals, but the Dalish PoV is of 'unthinking brutes who brutally attacked us for no reason'.  They are unaware of what Zathrian did, and even he refuses to see them as anything other than the brutal, unthinking animals he cursed.

If you want to stick entirely to her PoV you could even have had her see more of him fighting off the darkspawn, maybe aware he's carrying her through the woods, or even have her catch snippets of dialogue as he debates what to do with the injured woman.  This would allow you to build on the trust she gives (IMO) too easily in chapter 2.

5) The formality of calling Marion "Hawke" seems a bit forced in chapter 2's narrative. Even Marion refers to herself by "Hawke".  Try to avoid using her surname that much in the story.  The game does this, because all players are "Hawke", so it can be fully voiced, but you don't see friends and family you know in real life referring to you by your last name. The only one in game it feels completely natural coming from is Varric, who gives everyone (except Aveline) some kind of nickname. Even his crossbow! Leandra calls you "Darling" and Bethany/Carver call you "Sister". Don't be afraid of making her your own character, and get as familiar with her as if she were your best friend.


My last recommendation is get a good beta reader, if you don't already have one. I noticed a few spelling errors and grammar errors, but nothing glaring and not story/immersion breaking.  It would be more for help with sticky story logic moments. Even professional writers have editors to help keep their narrative tight and on task.  I'd be happy to help if you don't have one and can put up with my criticisms.

I'm sorry if this post is longwinded and seems a bit harsh.  I'm this hard on my friend, Lady Damodred/Cadsuane's stories (just as she reins in my less than stellar writing ideas).  Please don't think I disliked your story, on the contrary I enjoyed it very much, and see a great deal of potential here.  I look forward to seeing where you take this--and this is coming from someone who NEVER reads fanfic that isn't completely finished and posted.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:07 .

[RainedOver]

Those are all excellent points in which I have missed! Like I stated before, I knew I was missing something, and in my excitement to get it all written out, I skipped a lot of plot points and general flow of characters. I'm glad you think the first chapter was good, I had my doubts about how to write it without it seeming fake/forced/rushed. :/ And you are correct, I did want to use it to set up a bit of leading mystery for the readers, and then I went and totally botched chapter 2. -face-desk-

I will definitely be refurbishing chapter 2, almost completely, leaving the parts where she saw a glimpse of white in the forest and thought it a Halla later, and the interactions for the most part.

1. This is a very valid point, in my mind I had already skipped to "trust" and gave Hawke her weapons back. Which I know I wouldn't do to a stranger, even an injured one. It'd be good for her to work for it

2. Yeah, her trusting him so soon bothered me, but I just couldn't figure out how I wanted things to go. I like the idea of them slowly coming together in a dance of "Catch a Glimpse" while she works through things at camp(like her family's death). And this is exactly how I wanted (but wasn't sure how to write) his interaction with her, I wanted him to act exactly how you described, thank you for putting it so simply in words!

3. Yeah, definitely need to work on my "communicating with mute people" writing skills. ; I kind of built the story trying to convey more body language so that words didn't have to be used, but thinking over it again and expanding the story as I am, I can easily do that with his wolf interactions :]

4. I was actually planning on putting in a part slowly a bit later where it either had Fenris having a flashback, or telling Hawke about what happened and then having a flashback from his point of view(or some combination etc.). Also to have her slowly remember bits and flashes, and wonder who it was that she saw, like you were saying of him talking to the other wolves or just in general memories of him saving her in chapter 1. She would probably think herself crazy/dreaming at first though and eventually build to where it all clicks.

5. This is something else I definitely need to work on, the detachment with which I write Hawke doesn't flow right to me either. :/

I love to read stories that kind of keep you guessing and don't spell everything out(like little pieces of puzzle slowly falling into place), but at the same time don't end up like a Rubix cube. Mary Sues just don't sit well with me and I try not to write like that, which is why I try to make Hawke humanly faulty, but still skilled, and (only would be, in this case) deserving of the title "Champion of Kirkwall". Very few people are always right/see things before they happen/know everything/never change from loss. I like to add a bit of humility in stories/to characters, it's always nice to be reminded that even hero's are people too.

And lastly, would you? I would love for you to beta my story! I've been looking all over for someone who could, and I just can't seem to find someone who knows about the game AND has good writing/plot ironing out skills. I welcome your criticisms wholeheartedly! Bioware Forum was honestly my last hope at finding anyone who could even give me a second opinion from a side that wasn't totally biased or wanting to just be nice and encouraging. I figured this would be the place to look for someone else who knows as much about the game and it's characters enough to be able to lend a hand writing them correctly and with any sort of quality. Reviews on FF.net are nice, but most of the time they are just "Loved it, write more!" so that tells me that while they like my story they either don't know how to or are too nice to say any harsh critique that would improve the story.

Please, be as blunt/longwinded as possible, I need it! How would one learn if everything was sugar coated? Thank you for taking the time to criticize and give me pointers! First things first, I'll see what I can rewrite of chapter 2 and kind of go from there. If you are able to help, how do you want to communicate? Via Bioware forum, Fanfiction.net, email, msn, or something else entirely?

Modifié par RainedOver, 23 septembre 2012 - 04:58 .

[sylvanaerie]

First of all, I'm glad I could help you. This is why a beta is so vital, as a second person can see things you may want to write, but just don't know how to get to and offer up ideas to help you reach your goal.

Secondly, your Hawke definitely doesn't come across Mary Sue to me at all. I found her likeable and believable in her characterization. You have a clear, concise writing style that definitely conjures clear images to the reader's mind, immersing them in your world. Chapter 1 was fantastic, I wouldn't change anything about it. It sets up the events to come very nicely. Like I said, I wish Bioware had done the same for the game protagonist.

I would be most happy to beta for you. Right now Lady D isn't doing much writing, and I kind of miss that creative back and forth energy. I'll friend you here (if I can remember how) so we can keep in touch, and I'll PM you on the message board with my MSN address and we can pass documents to one another. My strong point in beta reading is I can pick up on story logic issues, and finding most spelling errors, not so good on grammar (unless it's something glaring).

Looking forward to working with you, and reading more of your interesting story!

And if you're curious about my work, I'm Ravenia on FF.Net.  Feel free to poke around and leave comments.

http://www.fanfictio.../590454/Ravenia

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 23 septembre 2012 - 10:45 .

[RainedOver]

I cannot thank you enough!

[sylvanaerie]

MSN looks like it's being a PITA since I sent you a friend request, but I have no idea if it will reach you. If you need to, just PM me here and copy/paste what you want to post for Chapter 2, and I'll take a looksee for you. We can do that till MSN resolves their issues.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 24 septembre 2012 - 08:41 .

[RainedOver]

Edited

Modifié par RainedOver, 25 septembre 2012 - 03:29 .