Plus she looked better to me with her pulled back.Sylvianus wrote...
Ashley's makeup bothered me a lot. She is a practical woman, she would never do that in mission.
Her lips were better without that thing morever.
Sexuality vs objectification
Débuté par
daaaav
, sept. 19 2012 01:06
#51
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 02:22
The Hierophant
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Retour en haut
#52
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 02:31
Sylvianus
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I liked her hair down, to be honest. Because I didn't want to see Ash exactly the same as M1. Too bad Bioware didn't give a pun toggle however. :/
Modifié par Sylvianus, 19 septembre 2012 - 02:34 .
#53
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 05:20
CuriousArtemis
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OMGosh WTF happened to that other thread 
I just read the whole thing; it's like watching something so terrible you start laughing!
Yes, a deft writer can handle writing a sexual character without objectifying her or him. For the most part, the DA team have done a fantastico job on this *aren't you glad I approve of you, O Writer's Pit* xD
(I still object to Isabela's panties, but we'll leave it at that.)
An example of objectification of the character would be the camera sliding over the female character's breasts or bottom, purposefully leading the player's gaze. That is the sort of thing we want to avoid.
Another example of objectification would be blanket differences between male and female characters that do not relate to in-game culture; for example, if female warriors wore armor that exposed their breasts or midrifts and males didn't. An example would be the Dalish female rogue outfit in DA:O.
An example of sexism (and not necessarily objectification) would be, again, blanket differences between male and female characters that do not relate to in-game culture but are not necessarily sexual in nature; for example, all ambient female characters wearing dresses and ambient male characters wearing pants. Another example is the walking animation of FemHawke and female NPCs versus the walking animation of BroHawke and male NPCs.
I just read the whole thing; it's like watching something so terrible you start laughing!Yes, a deft writer can handle writing a sexual character without objectifying her or him. For the most part, the DA team have done a fantastico job on this *aren't you glad I approve of you, O Writer's Pit* xD
(I still object to Isabela's panties, but we'll leave it at that.)
An example of objectification of the character would be the camera sliding over the female character's breasts or bottom, purposefully leading the player's gaze. That is the sort of thing we want to avoid.
Another example of objectification would be blanket differences between male and female characters that do not relate to in-game culture; for example, if female warriors wore armor that exposed their breasts or midrifts and males didn't. An example would be the Dalish female rogue outfit in DA:O.
An example of sexism (and not necessarily objectification) would be, again, blanket differences between male and female characters that do not relate to in-game culture but are not necessarily sexual in nature; for example, all ambient female characters wearing dresses and ambient male characters wearing pants. Another example is the walking animation of FemHawke and female NPCs versus the walking animation of BroHawke and male NPCs.
#54
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 05:23
HiroVoid
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Female protagonist walking the same way as the male protagonist was actually a common complaint before DA2.motomotogirl wrote...
Another example is the walking animation of FemHawke and female NPCs versus the walking animation of BroHawke and male NPCs.
#55
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 05:27
CuriousArtemis
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HiroVoid wrote...
Female protagonist walking the same way as the male protagonist was actually a common complaint before DA2.motomotogirl wrote...
Another example is the walking animation of FemHawke and female NPCs versus the walking animation of BroHawke and male NPCs.
I'm actually not surprised! There are quite a few traditionalists on this forum -- mostly women!
#56
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 05:34
Direwolf0294
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daaaav wrote...
But, it really irks me when people say things like "female characters should dress practically"... Why? What if they don't want to dress practically? If it makes sense for the character then they can dress as impractically as they like...
Okay, characters don't have to dress practically if they don't want to, so long as there are consequences for their actions. If a female companion runs into battle wearing a bikini because that's her character, fine, as long as every attack does quadriple damage against her and there's a finisher move where a Darkspawn cleaves her in half with his sword.
HiroVoid wrote...
Female protagonist walking the same way as the male protagonist was actually a common complaint before DA2.motomotogirl wrote...
Another
example is the walking animation of FemHawke and female NPCs versus the
walking animation of BroHawke and male NPCs.
I'm not surprised, catwalk animations are always one of the most downloaded mods for RPGs, right behind the 50 or so nude skins. I don't know why anyone would want their character to walk around the world like they're on a runway, it looks ridiculous.
Modifié par Direwolf0294, 19 septembre 2012 - 05:37 .
#57
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 05:45
HiroVoid
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I still have bad memories of the mod I thought would improve sex scenes in DAO to be more like ME.......*shudders*Direwolf0294 wrote...
I'm not surprised, catwalk animations are always one of the most downloaded mods for RPGs, right behind the 50 or so nude skins. I don't know why anyone would want their character to walk around the world like they're on a runway, it looks ridiculous.
#58
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 05:52
Guest_Puddi III_*
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I thought Isabela was a very sexual character who didn't seem objectified.
#59
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 05:58
Iakus
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daaaav wrote...
Yeah I completely agree. If gear looks one way on a male model then it shouldn't look like a strippers outfit on a female one. That is the ojectification I hope the game avoids.
OPne thing that always bugs me in DAO is when I put leather armor on Zevran, it protects his torso all the way up to the neck. But when I put it on Leliana, it has a big "Stab Here!" scoop right across her upper chest
#60
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 06:00
Rawgrim
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iakus wrote...
daaaav wrote...
Yeah I completely agree. If gear looks one way on a male model then it shouldn't look like a strippers outfit on a female one. That is the ojectification I hope the game avoids.
OPne thing that always bugs me in DAO is when I put leather armor on Zevran, it protects his torso all the way up to the neck. But when I put it on Leliana, it has a big "Stab Here!" scoop right across her upper chest
Even if you DID stab herm she still showed up in DA2.
#61
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 06:29
Calians
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I feel a lack of faith for David very disturbing. In the end it's going to be David's ideas and thoughts that will happen whether or not he listens, some aspects of the game sure they will listen but writing should be strictly left to David and how he sorts it out.
#62
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 06:31
Sable Rhapsody
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Honestly, my opinion on this is pretty simple. Everyone likes eye candy. So give everyone some eye candy, male and female alike. Yay.
#63
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 06:36
zevranarainais
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motomotogirl wrote...
HiroVoid wrote...
Female protagonist walking the same way as the male protagonist was actually a common complaint before DA2.motomotogirl wrote...
Another example is the walking animation of FemHawke and female NPCs versus the walking animation of BroHawke and male NPCs.
I'm actually not surprised! There are quite a few traditionalists on this forum -- mostly women!
The problem I, at least, had with the way females walk in DAO wasn't necessarily that it was utilitarian -- but just that it looked incredibly awkward on the female frame. The shoulders were strangely hunched, the arms swung quite widely, and, I dunno -- it just didn't fit. I wouldn't have minded a utilitarian jaunt if it didn't look... unnatural.
Still, I liked the sashaying, too. Not for all my Hawkes, though -- just for ones that fit the personality. It depends.
In any case, I'd like my PCs to be able to dress in a way that fits them, whether that means flaunting boobs or wearing heavy plate armor.
It's all about the character~
#64
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 06:46
Jackums
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^Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Honestly, my opinion on this is pretty simple. Everyone likes eye candy. So give everyone some eye candy, male and female alike. Yay.
#65
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 06:54
Sable Rhapsody
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aetherwyn wrote...
It's all about the character~
This too. If my PC wants to run around in nothing but a loincloth, I should be able to do that. If my PC never takes off his/her plate mail gloves, I should be allowed to do that too.
#66
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 06:58
EpicBoot2daFace
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I don't know if this applies to anyone else, but I'm not a big fan of those 'beautification' mods for Skyrim and other games. They always make the women look like super models instead of real people. Even people who don't use the mods always try to create a 'perfect' female in a character creation tool.
The people who do these things are among many who complain about how women are portrayed as sex objects in video games. The hypocrisy of gamers knows no bounds, or so it would seem.
The people who do these things are among many who complain about how women are portrayed as sex objects in video games. The hypocrisy of gamers knows no bounds, or so it would seem.
#67
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 07:24
Sable Rhapsody
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EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
I don't know if this applies to anyone else, but I'm not a big fan of those 'beautification' mods for Skyrim and other games. They always make the women look like super models instead of real people. Even people who don't use the mods always try to create a 'perfect' female in a character creation tool.
I'm definitely guilty of using mods or at very the least the character creator to be pretty, though I try to stick to lore-friendly stuff. I just figure that if I'm going to spend 30+ hours staring at these people, they'd darn well better be decent to look at. Which is shallow, but I'm 100% ok with that
Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:24 .
#68
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 07:37
DarkKnightHolmes
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I demand a male companion who runs around with nothing but a towel!
#69
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 07:44
Biotic_Warlock
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DarkKnightHolmes wrote...
I demand a male companion who runs around with nothing but a towel!
ooh
#70
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 07:49
EpicBoot2daFace
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The difference is you don't use those mods and then complain about it. But a lot of people do, and that's the part that gets me.Sable Rhapsody wrote...
EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
I don't know if this applies to anyone else, but I'm not a big fan of those 'beautification' mods for Skyrim and other games. They always make the women look like super models instead of real people. Even people who don't use the mods always try to create a 'perfect' female in a character creation tool.
I'm definitely guilty of using mods or at very the least the character creator to be pretty, though I try to stick to lore-friendly stuff. I just figure that if I'm going to spend 30+ hours staring at these people, they'd darn well better be decent to look at. Which is shallow, but I'm 100% ok with that
Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:49 .
#71
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 07:55
DarkKnightHolmes
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Biotic_Warlock wrote...
DarkKnightHolmes wrote...
I demand a male companion who runs around with nothing but a towel!
ooh
Why not? Might as well go all out.
#72
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 08:00
challenger18
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DarkKnightHolmes wrote...
Biotic_Warlock wrote...
DarkKnightHolmes wrote...
I demand a male companion who runs around with nothing but a towel!
ooh
Why not? Might as well go all out.
Naw, going all out is Saints Row 2 and 3 where you, male or female, can go streaking.
#73
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 08:37
philippe willaume
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Hello
Well idealisation is really the usuall norm in art, so if you go through classical paintings the male and female form are an idealised version of the beauty standard at the time and place and that has a link with the values if the society it comes from. Games and Movies are no exception.
The problem is that for a game, you need to balance pseudo practicality, values of the society and art.
So as MMG sais you can object to difference between the male female rogue armour for the Dalish.
That would work if the Dalish had a difference between gender, now if you put that into the context that full plate do not have boobs, it is not unreasonable to take it as flesh flashing.
we could argue about the partiality to go through the woods dressed like that or that there is way too much flesh unprotected or teh fact that evne thick leather do not work well against two handed sword but we are not elves.
So I can believe it works for them. but it should be working the same for both genders.
as for isabella pants well I think to is fine for the character and the class. That would not work for Aveline or Merill
All that being said I think DA is doing a much better job in that compartment than lots of game I have seen.
we have a lot a strong character regardless of gender and sexual orientation.
and the character tend to dress consistently with the character take on life.
Well idealisation is really the usuall norm in art, so if you go through classical paintings the male and female form are an idealised version of the beauty standard at the time and place and that has a link with the values if the society it comes from. Games and Movies are no exception.
The problem is that for a game, you need to balance pseudo practicality, values of the society and art.
So as MMG sais you can object to difference between the male female rogue armour for the Dalish.
That would work if the Dalish had a difference between gender, now if you put that into the context that full plate do not have boobs, it is not unreasonable to take it as flesh flashing.
we could argue about the partiality to go through the woods dressed like that or that there is way too much flesh unprotected or teh fact that evne thick leather do not work well against two handed sword but we are not elves.
So I can believe it works for them. but it should be working the same for both genders.
as for isabella pants well I think to is fine for the character and the class. That would not work for Aveline or Merill
All that being said I think DA is doing a much better job in that compartment than lots of game I have seen.
we have a lot a strong character regardless of gender and sexual orientation.
and the character tend to dress consistently with the character take on life.
Modifié par philippe willaume, 19 septembre 2012 - 09:02 .
#74
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 08:52
Sable Rhapsody
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EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
The difference is you don't use those mods and then complain about it. But a lot of people do, and that's the part that gets me.
I see where you're coming from. And I agree it is hypocritical.
TBH, I never really understood why everyone got all up in arms about it. Just about everyone who's designed as a love interest in BioWare's games, male or female, is sexualized to some extent regardless of gender. (The possible exception would be Garrus, but he was never intended to be an LI until fans asked for it.)
Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 19 septembre 2012 - 08:52 .
#75
Posté 19 septembre 2012 - 08:59
daaaav
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Sable Rhapsody wrote...
EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
The difference is you don't use those mods and then complain about it. But a lot of people do, and that's the part that gets me.
I see where you're coming from. And I agree it is hypocritical.
TBH, I never really understood why everyone got all up in arms about it. Just about everyone who's designed as a love interest in BioWare's games, male or female, is sexualized to some extent regardless of gender. (The possible exception would be Garrus, but he was never intended to be an LI until fans asked for it.)
Characters have certainly been idealised, but as the above poster said that is hardly uncommon throughout history and I personally don't have a problem with it.
