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[Rawgrim]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Daveros wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

aetherwyn wrote...

If people who don't want LIs to be available to either gender because it's "immersion breaking" or "Hawke-sexual," this seems a hell of a lot more immersion breaking to me. Forcing characters who are typically straight or gay to fall for your character regardless of who they "usually go for"? 

Yeah, I have a problem with that. I mean, if we were talking fluid sexuality, that'd be one thing -- but this seems to have sprung up in response to the desire not to have LIs open to both genders -- just open to the PC, whoever he or she is.

Um, wow.

I suggest you re-read the thread. You are obviously missing quite a few points.

I don't know, I see a very valid point there. If the sexuality of the character is set, except in the case of the PC, then that seems, on a wider scale, very un-inclusive indeed and I am by no means happy with the idea.

Thats the thing - it is set. 

Look up Kinsey Scale. Anders could have been say a 2 - which would be 60% straight. With Lady Hawke, he'd jump right into bed. With ManHawke, he has to do a little persuation to get him going. 

Isabela, would be a 3 which is 50/50 bisexual.

Exactly. That way people won`t get the "everyone is bi" right up in their face from the beginning either. You`d have to more or less activly look for it in some of them.

I would actually like that a lot. That way straight gamers don't have to complain about the ghey in their games until they actively seek for it.

True. Allthough the complaint here was more about the PC feeling like a sexuall Mary Sue because everyone seemed to "switch" sexuality in order to cater to the player.

With the idea he had here, it would also add ALOT to the replayability of the game as well. Maybe if you want to romance one of the more difficult ones, you would have to bring them along for certain quests. Make the right desicions infront of them. Things like that. It adds possebilities.

[SgtElias]

HiroVoid wrote...

You don't need to be on this forum to realize that. 

I specifically referenced the forums because none of my friends that played DA2 were particularly interested in this issue one way or the other, and the BSN seems to be the place where everyone who feels strongly one way or the other congregates to share their opinions.

I also think part of the 'we're only informed about Thedas' is also part of the reason it's hard to take the mage issue seriously.  We don't really know how common abomination attacks are when most of the time, it seems we only hear about them when a Templar mentions they became one because an abomination destroyed their town.

I've always taken the "Mage Issue" seriously; but then again, my main PC is always a mage! And I was raised on Star Wars; I admit to being absolutely thrilled at having something to rebel against.

Though I understand your point.

Modifié par SgtElias, 19 septembre 2012 - 05:10 .

[Daveros]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Thats the thing - it is set. 

Look up Kinsey Scale. Anders could have been say a 2 - which would be 60% straight. With Lady Hawke, he'd jump right into bed. With ManHawke, he has to do a little persuation to get him going. 

Isabela, would be a 3 which is 50/50 bisexual.

No character would EVER say be a 0 or a 6 since thats exclusive ******/hetero.

I'm not convinced the Kinsey Scale has any bearing on Dragon Age and the sexuality of its characters, however. It relies on the premise of gender preference existing, which I see no evidence of in DA2.

That said, I'm not against the idea per se, I just don't see it playing out well. It does strike me that it would feel like relationships in game were becoming exclusively PC-centric, which doesn't really seem natural. Nor does the removal of the 0 and 6s.

I'm not convinved it's the best way to go, is all.

[Lenimph]

Rawgrim wrote...

It feels like they switch sexuality. Read the thread. Its like you are commenting on a book when you have not read the first 100 pages.

Secondly: I said the Lore never said anything about people falling for the PC no matter their sexuall orientation. No info about it when it comes to the Hawke family, to put it that way.

Been lurking the thread since its creation so please don't tell me what I have read.  

Second of all no matter what... Isabela is bi(I hope I don't have to explain that one), Ander's has a relationship with Karl and is bi it's his choice whether or not to explain that to Lady Hawke and he decides not to, Fenris has that whole dynamic with his previous Master, and Merrill is Merrill and don't you dare tell her she can't love who she wan't to love.  

They are not changing themselves for Hawke, 3 out of the 4 characters have confirmed "interactions" with both sexes before they even meet Hawke.  (Actually I'm not sure if Fenris has been with women before) 

[Rawgrim]

Lenimph wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

It feels like they switch sexuality. Read the thread. Its like you are commenting on a book when you have not read the first 100 pages.

Secondly: I said the Lore never said anything about people falling for the PC no matter their sexuall orientation. No info about it when it comes to the Hawke family, to put it that way.

Been lurking the thread since its creation so please don't tell me what I have read.  

Second of all no matter what... Isabela is bi(I hope I don't have to explain that one), Ander's has a relationship with Karl and is bi it's his choice whether or not to explain that to Lady Hawke and he decides not to, Fenris has that whole dynamic with his previous Master, and Merrill is Merrill and don't you dare tell her she can't love who she wan't to love.  

They are not changing themselves for Hawke, 3 out of the 4 characters have confirmed "interactions" with both sexes before they even meet Hawke.  (Actually I'm not sure if Fenris has been with women before) 

Everyone being bisexuall makes Hawke seem like a sexuall Mary Sue. Simple as that.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Though not everyone was (Sebastian, namely and it made a lot of sense) I've never liked the idea of everyone being bi and DA2 took it to extremes. Okay, I get you want something to cater to Poster X's needs, but there's a point that it goes from "this is okay" to "this is pandering" and DA2 trampled over that line with a herd of elephants.

Looking at you, "Anders".

If it makes sense for the character (say, Zevran or Isabela) then fine, but when the character is just like that to fill the quota, stop yourselves ahead of time. Give them personalities first, sexualities second.

[Battlebloodmage]

Lenimph wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

It feels like they switch sexuality. Read the thread. Its like you are commenting on a book when you have not read the first 100 pages.

Secondly: I said the Lore never said anything about people falling for the PC no matter their sexuall orientation. No info about it when it comes to the Hawke family, to put it that way.

Been lurking the thread since its creation so please don't tell me what I have read.  

Second of all no matter what... Isabela is bi(I hope I don't have to explain that one), Ander's has a relationship with Karl and is bi it's his choice whether or not to explain that to Lady Hawke and he decides not to, Fenris has that whole dynamic with his previous Master, and Merrill is Merrill and don't you dare tell her she can't love who she wan't to love.  

They are not changing themselves for Hawke, 3 out of the 4 characters have confirmed "interactions" with both sexes before they even meet Hawke.  (Actually I'm not sure if Fenris has been with women before) 

Fenris and Isabela will be getting it on if you don't romance any of them.

[SgtElias]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

 Okay, I get you want something to cater to Poster X's needs, but there's a point that it goes from "this is okay" to "this is pandering" and DA2 trampled over that line with a herd of elephants.

Looking at you, "Anders".

Really? Huh. For some reason, Anders struck me as bisexual even all the way back in Awakening.

Must just be me.

[upsettingshorts]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Though not everyone was (Sebastian, namely and it made a lot of sense) I've never liked the idea of everyone being bi and DA2 took it to extremes. Okay, I get you want something to cater to Poster X's needs, but there's a point that it goes from "this is okay" to "this is pandering" and DA2 trampled over that line with a herd of elephants.

Looking at you, "Anders".

If it makes sense for the character (say, Zevran or Isabela) then fine, but when the character is just like that to fill the quota, stop yourselves ahead of time. Give them personalities first, sexualities second.

Hey look, someone who thinks bisexual means promiscuous. 

I'm all for everyone else getting the same level of pandering I, as a straight guy, have been getting from games since forever.  The hostility towards efficient inclusion is baffling to me.

[Lenimph]

Battlebloodmage wrote...
Fenris and Isabela will be getting it on if you don't romance any of them.

I was thinking before they meet Hawke but yeah that does confirm Fenris as bisexual without Hawke's "mary sexual intervention"  

[Lenimph]

SgtElias wrote...
Really? Huh. For some reason, Anders struck me as bisexual even all the way back in Awakening.

Must just be me.

It was the earing for me. 

JK

[CuriousArtemis]

Er, why does Sebastian "make sense" as a straight person?

[MorningBird]

Vandicus wrote...

Its sort've hard to believe that the NPCs' orientations are not designed simply for player convenience when all the romance options available just happened to be bisexual. Anders is probably the most immersion breaking example. He appears to have an established sexuality in DA:A that appears to be ignored in DA2 for the sake of convenience. You could argue that we simply didn't know, but don't you find it at least a little suspicious when every romanceable NPC in the game is bisexual?

Makes it feel like the PC is a bit of a Mary Sue character. How is that all these bisexual characters also conveniently happen to have no other relationships that might interefere with the romance? More convenience for the player that way.  

I really don't see how it's hard to believe... and much of what you're saying is subjective.  For example, I didn't find it immersion breaking for Anders to be bi.  I actually considered it to be quite believable.  That doesn't mean everyone did, but the whole 'Anders was straaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaght' complaint is hardly a wide-spread or shared belief amongst everyone in the community...

And no I didn't find it suspicious at all... granted, I'm also no in the habit of romancing every LI in a single play through, so it hardly occured to all of my Hawkes.



My play-throughs thus far have been:

Male!Warrior: Approached by Isabela and Anders, chose Anders
Male!Rogue: Approached by Isabela and Anders, pursued relationship with Fenris
Female!Mage: Approached by Anders and Isabela, chose Isabela

Haven't gotten to my Lady!Hawke/Merrill romance yet.  IN TIME.

Merrill and Fenris do not pursue Hawke unless they show an interest in starting an S/S relationship, and people who DO pursue a s/s relationship with either of them after being hit on by Anders or Isabela are unlikely to find 'all the bi' immersion breaking.  I say unlikely because I recognize that's not the case for everyone.

As a result, players who desire a strictly m/f relationship only really encounter one party member who is interested in them regarless of gender (Isabela or Anders) without the aid of metagame knowledge.  That's hardly enough to turn Hawke into a Mary Sue/Gary Stu.

Having said that... Isabela and Fenris hook up if neither are pursued.  It's hinted that Carver has a thing for Merrill.  Anders is... a special case... being an abomination and all.  So... trying to insinuate that their love lives revolve around Hawke is a bit of a stretch.

[CuriousArtemis]

Lenimph wrote...

SgtElias wrote...
Really? Huh. For some reason, Anders struck me as bisexual even all the way back in Awakening.

Must just be me.

It was the earing for me. 

JK

Which ear did he wear it in?! And what does that make Varric?! 

Also look and see if Anders is wearing a handkerchief in his back pocket!  *old skool gay clues FTW*

[Lenimph]

motomotogirl wrote...

Which ear did he wear it in?! And what does that make Varric?! 

Also look and see if Anders is wearing a handkerchief in his back pocket!  *old skool gay clues FTW*

Anders did wear the earring in the right ear.  

Varric has both ears pierced.  

[SgtElias]

motomotogirl wrote...

Lenimph wrote...

It was the earing for me. 

JK

And what does that make Varric?! 

Ohhhh, I like that implication! :innocent:

[upsettingshorts]

motomotogirl wrote...

Er, why does Sebastian "make sense" as a straight person?

Stereotypes.

[zevranarainais]

Daveros wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Thats the thing - it is set. 

Look up Kinsey Scale. Anders could have been say a 2 - which would be 60% straight. With Lady Hawke, he'd jump right into bed. With ManHawke, he has to do a little persuation to get him going. 

Isabela, would be a 3 which is 50/50 bisexual.

No character would EVER say be a 0 or a 6 since thats exclusive ******/hetero.

I'm not convinced the Kinsey Scale has any bearing on Dragon Age and the sexuality of its characters, however. It relies on the premise of gender preference existing, which I see no evidence of in DA2.

That said, I'm not against the idea per se, I just don't see it playing out well. It does strike me that it would feel like relationships in game were becoming exclusively PC-centric, which doesn't really seem natural. Nor does the removal of the 0 and 6s.

I'm not convinved it's the best way to go, is all.

Ditto.

Especially because it seems some people are arguing different things in terms of the Kinsey Scale; this one particular argument doesn't gall me quite so much, but other ones (in relation to the PC having to wheedle people down to make them interested in him or her) strike me as inifinitely more "Mary Sue," everyone's-interested-in-me-because-I'm-so-hot, even if said LI is normally attracted to males or females. (And boy, don't even get me started on the term Mary Sue -- but that's another debate for another forum).

But I really just do not understand people's straight-up aversion to pansexual LIs in favor of the Kinsey Scale. What I've deduced so far is that people don't want gay LIs to flirt with your straight character, and thus the Kinsey Scale (when you have to go "seek out" the "gay") is more appropriate? Because there's a lot wrong with that.

And if that's not the issue, what's the problem with pansexual LIs? Without meta-gaming?

I've read the thread and I still feel as though I'm missing something.

[Clover Rider]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Though not everyone was (Sebastian, namely and it made a lot of sense) I've never liked the idea of everyone being bi and DA2 took it to extremes. Okay, I get you want something to cater to Poster X's needs, but there's a point that it goes from "this is okay" to "this is pandering" and DA2 trampled over that line with a herd of elephants.

Looking at you, "Anders".

If it makes sense for the character (say, Zevran or Isabela) then fine, but when the character is just like that to fill the quota, stop yourselves ahead of time. Give them personalities first, sexualities second.

Hey look, someone who thinks bisexual means promiscuous. 

I'm all for everyone else getting the same level of pandering I, as a straight guy, have been getting from games since forever.  The hostility towards efficient inclusion is baffling to me.

Same.

Modifié par Some Geth, 19 septembre 2012 - 05:33 .

[Battlebloodmage]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

Er, why does Sebastian "make sense" as a straight person?

Stereotypes.

I believe so. He was raised in the chantry and give off the ultra-conservative Christian aura, although it shouldn't have anything to do with his sexuality.

The amount of stereotypes on this thread seem awfully funny. Bisexuals are promisculous, religious means straight (Many people argue that Ashley was straight because she's religious).

[Battlebloodmage]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Though not everyone was (Sebastian, namely and it made a lot of sense) I've never liked the idea of everyone being bi and DA2 took it to extremes. Okay, I get you want something to cater to Poster X's needs, but there's a point that it goes from "this is okay" to "this is pandering" and DA2 trampled over that line with a herd of elephants.

Looking at you, "Anders".

If it makes sense for the character (say, Zevran or Isabela) then fine, but when the character is just like that to fill the quota, stop yourselves ahead of time. Give them personalities first, sexualities second.

Hey look, someone who thinks bisexual means promiscuous. 

I'm all for everyone else getting the same level of pandering I, as a straight guy, have been getting from games since forever.  The hostility towards efficient inclusion is baffling to me.

Your post is full of wins.

[zevranarainais]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sopa de Gato wrote...

Though not everyone was (Sebastian, namely and it made a lot of sense) I've never liked the idea of everyone being bi and DA2 took it to extremes. Okay, I get you want something to cater to Poster X's needs, but there's a point that it goes from "this is okay" to "this is pandering" and DA2 trampled over that line with a herd of elephants.

Looking at you, "Anders".

If it makes sense for the character (say, Zevran or Isabela) then fine, but when the character is just like that to fill the quota, stop yourselves ahead of time. Give them personalities first, sexualities second.

Hey look, someone who thinks bisexual means promiscuous. 

I'm all for everyone else getting the same level of pandering I, as a straight guy, have been getting from games since forever.  The hostility towards efficient inclusion is baffling to me.

On the internet? Can't be too surprising.

Regardless, this post is beautiful.

[Eternal Dust]

Blackrising wrote...

Okay, so apparently there's a possibility for compromise.

All companions are available to either gender, but a lot more difficult to romance if the PC is not the gender they usually go for.

Anyone against this idea? Cause if not, I suggest we wrap this up and write a letter to Bioware telling them this is the way to go if they want to satisfy the players.

You mean like in Jade Empire where you have to be a complete dick to everyone of the opposite sex in order for Sky/Silk Fox to jump into your PC's open arms?

Setting up a bunch of contrived romance hoops to jump through doesn't make the idea any less "immersion breaking" than a simple heart icon that doesn't really reveal anything other than what you might have known beforehand from a previous playthrough.

[Allan Schumacher]

Give them personalities first, sexualities second.

Which is exactly what's done.

Gaider can put things more eloquently than I, but essentially it's a low cost way to help make our game more interesting to a group of people that typically find themselves marginalized.

In my opinion, if the relationship can only be deduced as being "bisexual" with metaknowledge, then I have absolutely no problem with it whatsoever and continue to support it.


Having said that, given people have already started to toss around woeful stereotypes, I'm locking this one down before it gets more out of hand.