348 réponses à ce sujet

[daaaav]

Sexuality is a ver personal aspect of a persons life so i think that characters should have individual sexualties.

It felt kinda weired to have to say "sorry bro, I just don't swing that way" to every single one of my male companions in DA2 and really broke my immersion.

Just like real life, have a diversity of folk and celebrate that. I'm no fan of homogenisation.

[Blackrising]

Rawgrim wrote...


Was Aveline or Varric romance options? Nope...

No they weren't, because they weren't interested in Hawke.

Modifié par Blackrising, 19 septembre 2012 - 03:10 .

[MACharlie1]

Rawgrim wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Blackrising wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Blackrising wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Blackrising wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

More options is great, but the idea of Hawke being so darn sexy he/she can turn anyone bisexual? That always struck me as stupid. Anders was obviously only interested in the vag in Awakening, but then he meets Hawke and now he swings both ways?
Now, I'm bisexual but it wasn't some daring and dashing man who came along and made be enjoy penis.

Spot on!  For some unexplained reason, Hawke (because he is player controlled), can get into bed with anyone he wants. No matter what gender heshe is, and no matter the sexuall prefferance of his romances.

Really? Cause my Hawke sure as hell didn't manage to get Aveline/Meredith/Orsino into bed with her...

And it is not 'unexplained'. Hawke talks to her LI, she takes care of them. She is kind to them and is there for them when they need her. (I don't know anything about the rivalmances, so I don't know what happen in those.)
They grow closer over time and fall in love.
There is nothing illogical or 'unexplained' about that.

they magically turn gay if you romance someone of your characters gender. They turn straight if you go the opposite road. Exact same romance, exact same cutscenes.The whole romance bit was simplified. Nothing deeper behind it at all. Its immersion breaking when things like this happen in games, deffinatly. The same way there was only 1 cave in the entire game.

Sounds to me like you just have a problem with keeping your playthroughs seperate.

Or it could be I am being constantly reminded by the heart shaped icons in the dialogue wheel...

...So in other words you want to take choices away from people because you don't want to have to look at a heart-shaped icon that has absolutely no relevance if you don't choose it?

Really now, some people...

The option just reminds me that everyone is into Hawke, no matter what. Never said anything about removing it. You are just nitpicking now to avoid the subject of the discussion.

INCORRECT.

Aveline and Varric both had Heart shaped conversations and both flat out reject Hawke. Just FYI. 

Not all Heart shaped icons led to happy time. 

Was Aveline or Varric romance options? Nope...

Exactly. 

I'm showing you that the conversation wheel doesn't dictate that anyone is whichever way. That Hawke is still your Hawke and can say things and still not have it work the same way. It just shows that you have the OPTION to flirt - doesn't mean it will work out. Think about it real life (since we keep going back to realism): you and I meet. You always have the option of flirting with me - doesn't mean I will reciprocate your advances. 

[Biotic_Warlock]

Rawgrim wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote..
INCORRECT.

Aveline and Varric both had Heart shaped conversations and both flat out reject Hawke. Just FYI. 

Not all Heart shaped icons led to happy time. 

Was Aveline or Varric romance options? Nope...

That's what he just said. You can flirt with them (and even try to get them to romance you) but they reject you so it's not an official romance.

[Renmiri1]

Well arguing is fun but luckily David Gaider has already been quite clear in this matter, to another straight white male poster begging for a "no bi" toggle so he wouldn't feel awkward...

http://social.biowar...ex/6661775&lf=8

David Gaider says..

The romances in the game are not for "the straight male gamer". They're for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention. We have good numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar sorts of content in DAO and thus don't need to resort to anecdotal evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant... and that's ignoring the idea that they don't have just as much right to play the kind of game they wish as anyone else. The "rights" of anyone with regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that stance must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the majority. The majority has no inherent "right" to get more options than anyone else.

More than that, I would question anyone deciding they speak for "the straight male gamer" just as much as someone claiming they speak for "all RPG fans", "all female fans" or even "all gay fans". You don't. If you wish to express your personal desires, then do so. I have no doubt that any opinion expressed on these forums is shared by many others, but since none of them have elected a spokesperson you're better off not trying to be one. If your attempt is to convince BioWare developers, I can tell you that you do in fact make your opinion less convincing by doing so.

And if there is any doubt why such an opinion might be met with hostility, it has to do with privilege. You can write it off as "political correctness" if you wish, but the truth is that privilege always lies with the majority. They're so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don't see anything wrong with having things set up to suit them, what's everyone's fuss all about? That's the way it should be, any everyone else should be used to not getting what they want.

The truth is that making a romance available for both genders is far less costly than creating an entirely new one. Does it create some issues of implementation? Sure-- but anything you try on this front is going to have its issues, and inevitably you'll always leave someone out in the cold. In this case, are all straight males left out in the cold? Not at all. There are romances available for them just the same as anyone else. Not all straight males require that their content be exclusive, after all, and you can see that even on this thread.

Would I do it again? I don't know. I doubt I would have Anders make the first move again-- at the time, I thought that requiring all romances to have Hawke initiate everything was the unrealistic part. Even if someone decides that this makes everyone "unrealistically" bisexual, however, or they can't handle the idea that the character might be bisexual if they were another PC... I don't see that as a big concern, to be honest. Romances are never one-size-fits-all, and even for those who don't mind the sexuality issue there's no guarantee they'll find a character they even want to romance. That's why romances are optional content. It's such a personal issue that we'll never be able to please everyone. The very best we can do is give everyone a little bit of choice, and that's what we tried here.

And the person who says that the only way to please them is to restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it least. And that's my opinion, expressed as politely as possible.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 19 septembre 2012 - 03:13 .

[Rawgrim]

The thread is about ROMANCE OPTIONS. Thats my point. Aveline and Varric wern`t romance options.

So when I say "everyone" i mean all of the romance options. Kind of the heart of the discussion.

[Blackrising]

daaaav wrote...

Sexuality is a ver personal aspect of a persons life so i think that characters should have individual sexualties.

It felt kinda weired to have to say "sorry bro, I just don't swing that way" to every single one of my male companions in DA2 and really broke my immersion.

Just like real life, have a diversity of folk and celebrate that. I'm no fan of homogenisation.

I can agree with that. It does break immersion when you want to imagine them as straight, which is completly okay, and I think they should make sure the PC only gets hit on when he/she shows an interest beforehand.

[Rawgrim]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Well arguing is fun but luckily David Gaider has already been quite clear in this matter, to another straight white male poster begging for a "no bi" toggle so he wouldn't feel awkward...

http://social.biowar...ex/6661775&lf=8

The romances in the game are not for "the straight male gamer". They're for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention. We have good numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar sorts of content in DAO and thus don't need to resort to anecdotal evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant... and that's ignoring the idea that they don't have just as much right to play the kind of game they wish as anyone else. The "rights" of anyone with regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that stance must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the majority. The majority has no inherent "right" to get more options than anyone else.

More than that, I would question anyone deciding they speak for "the straight male gamer" just as much as someone claiming they speak for "all RPG fans", "all female fans" or even "all gay fans". You don't. If you wish to express your personal desires, then do so. I have no doubt that any opinion expressed on these forums is shared by many others, but since none of them have elected a spokesperson you're better off not trying to be one. If your attempt is to convince BioWare developers, I can tell you that you do in fact make your opinion less convincing by doing so.

And if there is any doubt why such an opinion might be met with hostility, it has to do with privilege. You can write it off as "political correctness" if you wish, but the truth is that privilege always lies with the majority. They're so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don't see anything wrong with having things set up to suit them, what's everyone's fuss all about? That's the way it should be, any everyone else should be used to not getting what they want.

The truth is that making a romance available for both genders is far less costly than creating an entirely new one. Does it create some issues of implementation? Sure-- but anything you try on this front is going to have its issues, and inevitably you'll always leave someone out in the cold. In this case, are all straight males left out in the cold? Not at all. There are romances available for them just the same as anyone else. Not all straight males require that their content be exclusive, after all, and you can see that even on this thread.

Would I do it again? I don't know. I doubt I would have Anders make the first move again-- at the time, I thought that requiring all romances to have Hawke initiate everything was the unrealistic part. Even if someone decides that this makes everyone "unrealistically" bisexual, however, or they can't handle the idea that the character might be bisexual if they were another PC... I don't see that as a big concern, to be honest. Romances are never one-size-fits-all, and even for those who don't mind the sexuality issue there's no guarantee they'll find a character they even want to romance. That's why romances are optional content. It's such a personal issue that we'll never be able to please everyone. The very best we can do is give everyone a little bit of choice, and that's what we tried here.

And the person who says that the only way to please them is to restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it least. And that's my opinion, expressed as politely as possible.

Straight white male? Thats both racist and and sexist at the same time. Good job.

[MACharlie1]

Rawgrim wrote...

The thread is about ROMANCE OPTIONS. Thats my point. Aveline and Varric wern`t romance options.

So when I say "everyone" i mean all of the romance options. Kind of the heart of the discussion.

But your argueing that merely having an option to flirt was immersion breaking. You're saying having that Heart shaped icon when talking with Anders was immersion breaking. I'm just saying one of your arguements for no-all-bi option is invalid. 

[Rawgrim]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

The thread is about ROMANCE OPTIONS. Thats my point. Aveline and Varric wern`t romance options.

So when I say "everyone" i mean all of the romance options. Kind of the heart of the discussion.

But your argueing that merely having an option to flirt was immersion breaking. You're saying having that Heart shaped icon when talking with Anders was immersion breaking. I'm just saying one of your arguements for no-all-bi option is invalid. 

Not exactly sure what you mean. Since Aveline and Varric arn`t a factor at all.

[syllogi]

daaaav wrote...

Sexuality is a ver personal aspect of a persons life so i think that characters should have individual sexualties.

It felt kinda weired to have to say "sorry bro, I just don't swing that way" to every single one of my male companions in DA2 and really broke my immersion.

Just like real life, have a diversity of folk and celebrate that. I'm no fan of homogenisation.

That may be a problem if it was like that for your male character, but I don't ever remember Fenris or Merrill making the first move with my female character.  I've had to do the awkward turn down with Anders, but that's it.  I know you're not talking about Varric or Sebastian, so I have to ask, when does Fenris do this?

And honestly, while saying "sorry, I don't feel that way" can be uncomfortable, it's not the worst thing ever.  If it really were as heavy handed as you say, that would be a problem, but I don't see it in DA2.

[Blackrising]

Rawgrim wrote...

The thread is about ROMANCE OPTIONS. Thats my point. Aveline and Varric wern`t romance options.

So when I say "everyone" i mean all of the romance options. Kind of the heart of the discussion.

Wait, I'm confused.
You complain that all romance options want Hawke....but isn't that the point of romance options? Since Aveline isn't considered a romance option as she rejects Hawke...

[Emzamination]

Threads like this are amazing.I remember origins had one gay romance (that went both ways) each for gay wardens while the hetero wardens had 2 (3 with with the femwarden) options, yet no one was complaining about the unfair scale tip then because atleast we got something.It was not fair that straight wardens could hook up with leliana and zevran but gay wardens were shut down when trying to hit on morrigan and alistair.This needs to be taken into serious account in Da3.

[MACharlie1]

Rawgrim wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

The thread is about ROMANCE OPTIONS. Thats my point. Aveline and Varric wern`t romance options.

So when I say "everyone" i mean all of the romance options. Kind of the heart of the discussion.

But your argueing that merely having an option to flirt was immersion breaking. You're saying having that Heart shaped icon when talking with Anders was immersion breaking. I'm just saying one of your arguements for no-all-bi option is invalid. 

Not exactly sure what you mean. Since Aveline and Varric arn`t a factor at all.

Your arguement is having a heart shaped icon, indicating flirting - indicating an interested Hawke in a particular character - is immersion breaking. 

Because of the presence of characters who do reciprocate Hawke's advances - this arguement is invalid because you don't know if the character will reciprocate. You're talking about immersion breaking and realism and yet you're meta-gaming. Thats the only saving point of this arguement. It's only valid if you know who the romance options are. Which you're kinda supposed to figure out on you're own...

[Emzamination]

daaaav wrote...

Sexuality is a ver personal aspect of a persons life so i think that characters should have individual sexualties.

It felt kinda weired to have to say "sorry bro, I just don't swing that way" to every single one of my male companions in DA2 and really broke my immersion.

Just like real life, have a diversity of folk and celebrate that. I'm no fan of homogenisation.

The only person that hits on you is anders, the others don't give the slightest hint they're gay unless you start hitting that heart so you wanted it to happen, don't complain.

[Rawgrim]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

The thread is about ROMANCE OPTIONS. Thats my point. Aveline and Varric wern`t romance options.

So when I say "everyone" i mean all of the romance options. Kind of the heart of the discussion.

But your argueing that merely having an option to flirt was immersion breaking. You're saying having that Heart shaped icon when talking with Anders was immersion breaking. I'm just saying one of your arguements for no-all-bi option is invalid. 

Not exactly sure what you mean. Since Aveline and Varric arn`t a factor at all.

Your arguement is having a heart shaped icon, indicating flirting - indicating an interested Hawke in a particular character - is immersion breaking. 

Because of the presence of characters who do reciprocate Hawke's advances - this arguement is invalid because you don't know if the character will reciprocate. You're talking about immersion breaking and realism and yet you're meta-gaming. Thats the only saving point of this arguement. It's only valid if you know who the romance options are. Which you're kinda supposed to figure out on you're own...

Well the icon made it sure I never needed to figure it out on my own.

[MACharlie1]

Rawgrim wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

The thread is about ROMANCE OPTIONS. Thats my point. Aveline and Varric wern`t romance options.

So when I say "everyone" i mean all of the romance options. Kind of the heart of the discussion.

But your argueing that merely having an option to flirt was immersion breaking. You're saying having that Heart shaped icon when talking with Anders was immersion breaking. I'm just saying one of your arguements for no-all-bi option is invalid. 

Not exactly sure what you mean. Since Aveline and Varric arn`t a factor at all.

Your arguement is having a heart shaped icon, indicating flirting - indicating an interested Hawke in a particular character - is immersion breaking. 

Because of the presence of characters who do reciprocate Hawke's advances - this arguement is invalid because you don't know if the character will reciprocate. You're talking about immersion breaking and realism and yet you're meta-gaming. Thats the only saving point of this arguement. It's only valid if you know who the romance options are. Which you're kinda supposed to figure out on you're own...

Well the icon made it sure I never needed to figure it out on my own.

So you knew when the heart icon showed up for Varric/Aveline that they weren't going to be romanceable? 

[Blackrising]

Rawgrim wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

The thread is about ROMANCE OPTIONS. Thats my point. Aveline and Varric wern`t romance options.

So when I say "everyone" i mean all of the romance options. Kind of the heart of the discussion.

But your argueing that merely having an option to flirt was immersion breaking. You're saying having that Heart shaped icon when talking with Anders was immersion breaking. I'm just saying one of your arguements for no-all-bi option is invalid. 

Not exactly sure what you mean. Since Aveline and Varric arn`t a factor at all.

Your arguement is having a heart shaped icon, indicating flirting - indicating an interested Hawke in a particular character - is immersion breaking. 

Because of the presence of characters who do reciprocate Hawke's advances - this arguement is invalid because you don't know if the character will reciprocate. You're talking about immersion breaking and realism and yet you're meta-gaming. Thats the only saving point of this arguement. It's only valid if you know who the romance options are. Which you're kinda supposed to figure out on you're own...

Well the icon made it sure I never needed to figure it out on my own.

But the icon doesn't prove anything, as proven by Aveline.

[Rawgrim]

Emzamination wrote...

Threads like this are amazing.I remember origins had one gay romance (that went both ways) each for gay wardens while the hetero wardens had 2 (3 with with the femwarden) options, yet no one was complaining about the unfair scale tip then because atleast we got something.It was not fair that straight wardens could hook up with leliana and zevran but gay wardens were shut down when trying to hit on morrigan and alistair.This needs to be taken into serious account in Da3.

Well a gay person wouldn`t turn straight just because a straight person hit on him\\her. the thing here is immersion. Belivability. Not whats fair.

Lets say we have 10 love intersts in DA3. 0 of them are bisexuall, 1 is straight. Even that is an improvement from DA2, since not ALL of them are whatever your character is.

[sharkboy421]

I would very much prefer if they kept with DA2's approach and made every romance option available to both genders of the PC.  But I do think there should be a few conditions to go along with making everyone available.

First off the romance option should only be initiated by the player.  This would help avoid any accidental romances that can be surprising and sometimes upsetting.  In fact this would be a good general rule for any type of romance.  Just because I'm being nice to you does not mean I want to get with you.  As an addition to that if the dialogue wheel is going to return I would like them to keep the "heart" option for romances as a seperate choice.  That way there can be no mistake about what you are saying to the companion.

Secondly a character's sexuality should be almost never even be hinted at unless the player is pursuing a romance with that character.  I want to know a characters personality and what drives them and maybe even what they like in a partner, but their orientation should have little impact on their personality. 

Building off that, a character needs to avoid making comments about a preference and flirting with the player unless they will do so regardless of gender, like Isabella or Liara.

I really think these guidlines would allow for people to enjoy the romances they want in the manner they want and also let people avoid the ones they want to avoid.

[Rawgrim]

Blackrising wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

The thread is about ROMANCE OPTIONS. Thats my point. Aveline and Varric wern`t romance options.

So when I say "everyone" i mean all of the romance options. Kind of the heart of the discussion.

But your argueing that merely having an option to flirt was immersion breaking. You're saying having that Heart shaped icon when talking with Anders was immersion breaking. I'm just saying one of your arguements for no-all-bi option is invalid. 

Not exactly sure what you mean. Since Aveline and Varric arn`t a factor at all.

Your arguement is having a heart shaped icon, indicating flirting - indicating an interested Hawke in a particular character - is immersion breaking. 

Because of the presence of characters who do reciprocate Hawke's advances - this arguement is invalid because you don't know if the character will reciprocate. You're talking about immersion breaking and realism and yet you're meta-gaming. Thats the only saving point of this arguement. It's only valid if you know who the romance options are. Which you're kinda supposed to figure out on you're own...

Well the icon made it sure I never needed to figure it out on my own.

But the icon doesn't prove anything, as proven by Aveline.

So if I press the icon while speaking to any of the romance options, I won\\ t start a romance?

[ScarMK]

Blackrising wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

Just do it with origins and majority is happy. God forbid you don't have 4 or 6 different bis to get it on with.

Yes, because this is all about 'getting it on' with people.
I just want to have the same choices as everyone else. Is that so wrong?

I apolgize for that getting it on comment, I was out of line.  No, it is not wrong, but having each romance option attracted to the PC simply because they are the main character does not work either.  You may be the main character, but you do not control everything that happens. 

[Reaverwind]

Emzamination wrote...

Threads like this are amazing.I remember origins had one gay romance (that went both ways) each for gay wardens while the hetero wardens had 2 (3 with with the femwarden) options, yet no one was complaining about the unfair scale tip then because atleast we got something.It was not fair that straight wardens could hook up with leliana and zevran but gay wardens were shut down when trying to hit on morrigan and alistair.This needs to be taken into serious account in Da3.

Except the hetero-relationship with Leliana was awkward and just plain weird. It was clearly written for a female partner. We got the same problem in spades with DA2, with Bioware wanting to cut corners and write one-size-fits-all romance dialogue. 

[MACharlie1]

Rawgrim wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Threads like this are amazing.I remember origins had one gay romance (that went both ways) each for gay wardens while the hetero wardens had 2 (3 with with the femwarden) options, yet no one was complaining about the unfair scale tip then because atleast we got something.It was not fair that straight wardens could hook up with leliana and zevran but gay wardens were shut down when trying to hit on morrigan and alistair.This needs to be taken into serious account in Da3.

Well a gay person wouldn`t turn straight just because a straight person hit on himher. the thing here is immersion. Belivability. Not whats fair.

Lets say we have 10 love intersts in DA3. 0 of them are bisexuall, 1 is straight. Even that is an improvement from DA2, since not ALL of them are whatever your character is.

Wasn't Sebastian hetero romanceable only? Therefore - 1/5 is a better ratio then 1/10.  Just sayin'. 

Personally, I'd prefer everyone to be bi but some more difficult for either sex to romance.