340 réponses à ce sujet

[mecha-X]

MP-Ryan wrote...

The effectiveness of the Piranha in the hands of particular classes speaks more to imbalance in the classes themselves than the weapon. Compare a GI+Piranha to a Novaguard+Piranha.

The trouble is that by allowing all classes to access all weapons with a weight mechanic, you can either balance the game to weapon damage or power damage. Multiplayer is clearly skewed to weapon damage. With that in mind, class that synergize weapon and power damage (infiltrators) with low cooldown are always going to be overpowered compared to classes that don't (vanguards).

Instead of addressing the symptom - weapon statistical use - BioWare should be addressing the cause: Poorly balanced class design. As it stands, anytime they "balance" low-weight weapons it is going to disproportionately hurt vanguards and adepts without really addressing the fact that soldiers and infiltrators have massive damage boosts with weapons. Easy fix: provide innate weapons damage bonuses or increased power damage on adepts and vanguards to compensate for cooldown, allowing them to use low weight weapons in a way that soldiers/infiltrators could not.

its a CO-OP GAME, who realy cares about balance, when the team gets the same thing in the end

[Finchtastic]

I agree, leave them both alone please.

[kobayashi-maru]

I'm not trying to start argument just question I have about all the controversy. Some people can easily solo with specific weapons, complain they need more challenging level, then as soon as devs try and fix a weapon that is for most the most powerful, they complain. Is the issue that some people take three minutes longer to speedrun MP.

I personally don't get it. Variety in weapons and builds is what keeps it fresh - and Piranha is one gun I don't personally use that often.

[Battlepope190]

OP "retired" from ME3's MP (such a pro MLG GAMER amirite?) so how is his opinion at all relevant?

[ABjerre]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

I've posted a preview of the changes we're thinking about here.

Piranha Shotgun
- Clip size decreased from 8 to 6

Carnifex Pistol
- Encumbrance increased from [1.0-0.5] to [1.2-0.7]

I am a bit puzzled with why doing this is considered the solution to the Piranha and the Carfinex being overpopular. It is obvious that you (BioWare) hit a design with these two that apparently suits a lot of players really well. Instead of deliberately making them more unattractive, wouldn't it make more sense to make some of the competitors (Wraith and Disciple for shotguns; Phalanx and Paladin for Pistols) more attractive instead?

If done right, the result should be the same (decreased popularity of the target weapons), but instead of frowns from the customer base, you get smiles.

I am just spitballin' here, but some suggestions could be:

Shotguns:
Wraith: Capacity increased from 2 to 4 (or 6 if you are feeling frisky)
Disciple: Damage increased by 10%, chance to stagger increased significantly.

Heavy Pistols:
Paladin: Capacity increased (back) to 4
Phalanx: Damage increased by 10%

[Catastrophy]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

I've posted a preview of the changes we're thinking about here.

OK, that does it! No more Piranha on my Shadow then. Claymore time?
I think Mr Paladin can live with it.

[EmericaJosh]

I really hope the community stands ground against these nerfs and Bioware actually listens. You would be pleasing majority of the community by not going through with this nerf. Not only are these nerfs not needed, but displease a lot of the community. So why go though with them?

[RNG God]

Battlepope190 wrote...

OP "retired" from ME3's MP (such a pro MLG GAMER amirite?) so how is his opinion at all relevant?

Remind me how your opinion is any more important than his.

[Bleachrude]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

MP-Ryan wrote...

The effectiveness of the Piranha in the hands of particular classes speaks more to imbalance in the classes themselves than the weapon. Compare a GI+Piranha to a Novaguard+Piranha.

The trouble is that by allowing all classes to access all weapons with a weight mechanic, you can either balance the game to weapon damage or power damage. Multiplayer is clearly skewed to weapon damage. With that in mind, class that synergize weapon and power damage (infiltrators) with low cooldown are always going to be overpowered compared to classes that don't (vanguards).

Instead of addressing the symptom - weapon statistical use - BioWare should be addressing the cause: Poorly balanced class design. As it stands, anytime they "balance" low-weight weapons it is going to disproportionately hurt vanguards and adepts without really addressing the fact that soldiers and infiltrators have massive damage boosts with weapons. Easy fix: provide innate weapons damage bonuses or increased power damage on adepts and vanguards to compensate for cooldown, allowing them to use low weight weapons in a way that soldiers/infiltrators could not.

This. This, this this this.
And if I wasn't clear, this.

Nerfing light weight weapons only trully hurts classes that rely heavily on cooldowns, and since powers aren't as damaging as weapons, they'll only be left further behind.

I see neither of you two were at ME mp during the demo/early days.

In the beginning, powers (specifically biotics) were heads and shoulders above the weapon using classes (soldiers).  People complained that "guns are too weak" and now we have the situation where guns are stronger than powers.

Quite frankly, Bioware can't keep buffing powers as that's part of the reason we have the buffed geth...

[Lucifuture]

I don't even use the pirahna a ton, but I would rather se weight added than a clip size reduction.

[Deathshroud09]

bump

[Lord Chun]

I don't really like piranha on anything but my destroyer as it shoots too slow on everything else so it doesn't need nerfed for the other classes but doesn't anyone remember why the krysea got nerfed to the ground. Because of the GI made it OP soo good buy piranha it was fun


Plus I agre with redjohn

[Meatiershower]

OneTrueShot wrote...

Count me in this time. I think the whole next weeks approach is just -wrong-. Bad timing too, players don't need more of an excuse to go elsewhere. Positive reinforcement of this game right now is crucial. I really hope Bioware have enough sense to at least put this off at least another week.

The Argus was a good temptation...But I just don't see it being enough to make people overlook their favourite weapons being destroyed, especially so close to so many other titles attempting to pull them away as is.

[Dbohr]

Battlepope190 wrote...

OP "retired" from ME3's MP (such a pro MLG GAMER amirite?) so how is his opinion at all relevant?

Are you kidding? The guy who can solo Platinum with almost any character? Arguably THE most skilled player there is? I'd say his perspective counts a LOT.

Back on topic, while the team's proposed changes do not seem harsh, I stand by my previous assessment: they are totally unnecessary. 

The Piranha is not the end-all, be-all of shotguns, even if it's quite useful Just as an example, I took it to Gold today with a Turian Soldier specced for accuracy, stability and RoF. Put a Barrage V Gear, Shredder Mod V, Smart Choke V, slapped Incendiary III and Shotgun Amp III. So equipped I could kill things from medium range fine and even long range with Marksman. But then it didn't work so well on short range against more than one enemy. Because they have so much health, I needed an entire clip to kill any trash mook and by the time I reloaded another mook would take me out or seriously hurt me. 

In other words, I needed to develop a different approach to operate the gun. 

So: even with mods the Piranha remains very high-risk/ high-reward. It's versatile, but versatility does not make it overpowered, much less, as some like to say, an easy weapon. 

Take 2 shots from it's clip and you're unnecessarily crippling the weapon. If it must be nerfed at all, encumbrance is the stat that should be looked on. 

[ryanshowseason3]

Dbohr wrote...

Are you kidding? The guy who can solo Platinum with almost any character? Arguably THE most skilled player there is? I'd say his perspective counts a LOT.

I'd argue thats exactly why it perhaps shouldn't matter. He's so far away from the curve perhaps the average player is just nowhere close. Like someone who ruins the curve, you don't base a curve on the card carrying Mensa guy in the room, you base it on the average.

[GallowsPole]

Again. On Gold or Platinum each weapon is just fine. Since a vast majority of players play on bronze/silver, both are ridiculously OP. Maybe not so much the Carnifex, but definitely the Pirahna as well as some other weapons. This is why it's ridiculous balancing weapons across 4 different difficulties. One level of player is going to **** and moan that either the gun needs buffed or it needs nerfed.

Personally I think BW has done a fairly decent job doing it but they aren't going to please everyone with the current system.

[GallowsPole]

ryanshowseason3 wrote...

Dbohr wrote...

Are you kidding? The guy who can solo Platinum with almost any character? Arguably THE most skilled player there is? I'd say his perspective counts a LOT.

I'd argue thats exactly why it perhaps shouldn't matter. He's so far away from the curve perhaps the average player is just nowhere close. Like someone who ruins the curve, you don't base a curve on the card carrying Mensa guy in the room, you base it on the average.

yes cause out of the tens of thousands that play, he with a handful of others, are the only ones who post on BSN. Guess that's good enough for some. 

[Dbohr]

ryanshowseason3 wrote...

I'd argue thats exactly why it perhaps shouldn't matter. He's so far away from the curve perhaps the average player is just nowhere close. Like someone who ruins the curve, you don't base a curve on the card carrying Mensa guy in the room, you base it on the average.

I see you point, but I'd counter by saying that the fact RedJohn is so much more skilled that the rest of us means that he tried a lot of weapon/ character/ mods combinations and can correctly assess the strenghts and weaknessess of each. Also (and please don't take this as an offense, I'm just making a comparison here), what you're saying amounts to claiming an ace particle physicist is not the best person to correctly analyse a bunch of LHC datasheets. 

GallowsPole wrote...

Again. On Gold or Platinum each weapon is just fine. Since a vast majority of players play on bronze/silver, both are ridiculously OP. Maybe not so much the Carnifex, but definitely the Pirahna as well as some other weapons. This is why it's ridiculous balancing weapons across 4 different difficulties. One level of player is going to **** and moan that either the gun needs buffed or it needs nerfed.

Personally I think BW has done a fairly decent job doing it but they aren't going to please everyone with the current system.

I tend to agree. But look at it this way: common and uncommon weapons are from Bronze and Silver players. Rare and Ultra-Rares should help you making the transition from Silver to Gold. Beggining players can, and do, luck out on the RNG and find good weapons. Why shouldn't they take them to Bronze and Silver while they hone their skills for Gold? 

[GallowsPole]

Because if I was a new player, I'd be a little put out and bored if some guy with an op weapon is cleaning house on bronze when I'm trying to learn the game. If I luck out with the RNG, and get it, then I'm not learning anything.

[xtorma]

Make weapons that people like, then nerf them so that people stop using them.

Makes perfect sense to me.

[Dbohr]

GallowsPole wrote...

Because if I was a new player, I'd be a little put out and bored if some guy with an op weapon is cleaning house on bronze when I'm trying to learn the game. If I luck out with the RNG, and get it, then I'm not learning anything.

When I first started this game I was put off that several headbutting Krogans with Claymores were moping the floor while I was trying to snipe with my Mantis I. Not to mention Novaguards... but then there were different lobbies with different people, where I could make a decent contribution. Such is the nature of multiplayer games. 

Also, I submit that very few weapons were OP or terribly unbalanced at the start. Krysae, perhaps, or maybe the Typhoon but I got them very late after their respective nerfs. It is not the case of Piranha and 
most certainly not Carnifex. At early levels they are perfectly fine for Bronze and Silver.

[smilinpig]

 You think the nerfheads at biowaste will actually read this and GET A CLUE that almost NO ONE wants these weapons messed with???????

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

smilinpig wrote...

 You think the nerfheads at biowaste will actually read this and GET A CLUE that almost NO ONE wants these weapons messed with???????

Chill. It's a game 

[ryanshowseason3]

Dbohr wrote...

ryanshowseason3 wrote...

I'd argue thats exactly why it perhaps shouldn't matter. He's so far away from the curve perhaps the average player is just nowhere close. Like someone who ruins the curve, you don't base a curve on the card carrying Mensa guy in the room, you base it on the average.

I see you point, but I'd counter by saying that the fact RedJohn is so much more skilled that the rest of us means that he tried a lot of weapon/ character/ mods combinations and can correctly assess the strenghts and weaknessess of each. Also (and please don't take this as an offense, I'm just making a comparison here), what you're saying amounts to claiming an ace particle physicist is not the best person to correctly analyse a bunch of LHC datasheets.

Thing is we don't have the datasheets. All we have to judge by is our own limited play experience seen through the filter of our own skill. Neither you me or RedJohn has any perspective outside our own skill level. Which =/= to what anyone else experiences or does.

The LHC datasheets represent something independently verifiable. Personal gameplay experience is not. He can assess how it works for him all he wants, voice that and see if it holds true for many with evidence of datasheets we don't have or other's testimonies. But the BSN only represents a small percentage of playerbase so even testimonies here don't account to much of a sample size. Compounding on that my assumption that players who actively read the forums are more knowledged and researched than players who don't and therefore have advantages. IE most everyone here knows ULM for smgs only works in certain combinations. While average players don't. So the sample size we represent is tainted in a way as well.

This isn't to say I don't find his argument compelling though either. In fact I lean toward the thought that he might be right in his assertions. I also don't oppose the nerf either though for other reasons. I assume BW has numbers telling them how much a particular weapon is owning. I'm assuming there is some logic behind these changes.

Also its their creation to do with as they see fit, we bought a ticket to ride a cruise ship, we don't get to tell the captain and crew where it goes.

[Cohen le Barbare]

smilinpig wrote...

 You think the nerfheads at biowaste will actually read this and GET A CLUE that almost NO ONE wants these weapons messed with???????

See it from another perspective: why provide 50 weapons (promotionals included, collector rifle excluded) if users only use 1? It's either that a lot of weapons are crap (some of them are) or that the 1 weapon is way too powerful. They have server logs that tell them what killed what. I'm pretty sure the Piranha gets a lot of attention.