397 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

KENNY4753 wrote...
So fans asked for a refusal option be added where you automatically lose so you have to choose one of the colored endings to win. That sounds exactly like something the fans would ask for.

It was. Often repeated quote before the EC: " I don't care if I win or lose, I want Shepard to go out on his own terms. Preserve his own integrity and morals."

After the EC, "WTF we wanted to win without any consequences!"

[Jadebaby]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

LilLino wrote...

The only 2 endings that could be cannon and into the future would be control or destroy
Personally I prefer destroy. Biggest freedom and heavy casualties. Lots of possibilities.

And Refuse? Really? Are you guys mad? It's the worst choice ever. It's a choice of a coward not a Military Man or N7. Too weak to handle a tough choice? I can't believe someone roleyplays Shepard like that.
Besides that'd not be Mass Effect universe as we know it with completely different aliens. Bah, there wouldn't even be humans anymore. Sorry OP but this is just stupid.

Honestly, in my opinion refuse through dialogue is the only choice. Unless you meta-game the results of each choice. Meta-gaming the best choice (imo) is destroy.

It´s far away from coward choice, coward choice would by run away with Normady and screw on galaxy with Reapers - that´s coward choice. Refuse required to have a guts, to oppose the inevitable doom with such defiance and not subduing to the wicked agenda despite the cruel outcome ...

Exactly, refuse requires a bravery on a total idiotic level. That's why it gets confused with cowardice. You're given choices to end it right then and there. Yet you don't? That's not indecisiveness or inaction. That's bravery for standing up for what you TRULY believed in. And "I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop YOU!"  And people still believe the Child isn't a villian? pfft.

[Jadebaby]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

Yep, you're correct. If BW wanted conventional victory possible, it would and could be.

There is a good reason not to do this, namely that the Crucible is the central goal of the game, and making conventional victory possible would destroy narrative coherence in a way that the original endings never did.

It's funny you should say that because the Crucible being "a reaper enigmatic trap" fits more within the lore than it being a "face value" weapon against the Reapers.

[Jadebaby]

CronoDragoon wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...
So fans asked for a refusal option be added where you automatically lose so you have to choose one of the colored endings to win. That sounds exactly like something the fans would ask for.

It was. Often repeated quote before the EC: " I don't care if I win or lose, I want Shepard to go out on his own terms. Preserve his own integrity and morals."

After the EC, "WTF we wanted to win without any consequences!"

Stepping stones. Still waiting for it to be proven that that's why BioWare incorporated it, and not because they hadn't planned to already..

[CronoDragoon]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

It's funny you should say that because the Crucible being "a reaper enigmatic trap" fits more within the lore than it being a "face value" weapon against the Reapers.

Possibly true. In which case narrative coherence would demand that you lose, not that conventional victory is possible.

[CronoDragoon]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Stepping stones. Still waiting for it to be proven that that's why BioWare incorporated it, and not because they hadn't planned to already..

If you turn out to be correct, I will put in my sig, "Jade was right! I should have listened!" for a month.

Deal?

[Han Shot First]

Jade8aby88 wrote...


Exactly, refuse requires a bravery on a total idiotic level. That's why it gets confused with cowardice. You're given choices to end it right then and there. Yet you don't? That's not indecisiveness or inaction. That's bravery for standing up for what you TRULY believed in. And "I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop YOU!"  And people still believe the Child isn't a villian? pfft.

Bravery?

Sure, because Shepard is condemning himself to death.

But it also represents stupidity of epic proportions because he's also condemning his own species to extinction, along with every other known space faring civilzation. Refuse represents a Shepard who puts his own pride before the survival of his species. It turns him into a military leader who actually chooses to lose the war he's fighting. If there was anyone left to remember him at all (there isn't) he'd be mentioned along with Vidkun Quisling or Benedict Arnold. He'd be remembered as a traitor.

Thankfully, there isn't any possibility that Bioware would ever make stupidity of such astronomical proportions canon.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 19 septembre 2012 - 04:49 .

[KENNY4753]

CronoDragoon wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...
So fans asked for a refusal option be added where you automatically lose so you have to choose one of the colored endings to win. That sounds exactly like something the fans would ask for.

It was. Often repeated quote before the EC: " I don't care if I win or lose, I want Shepard to go out on his own terms. Preserve his own integrity and morals."

After the EC, "WTF we wanted to win without any consequences!"

Even through a refusal win there would be consequences that could result in a possible ME4. In a conventional victory the galaxys forces would be so badly damaged that the Leviathans will see this as a chance to reclaim their sopt as the head of the galaxy. 

Plus a conventional victory resulting in Shepard's death would be fine by me as well.

[CronoDragoon]

KENNY4753 wrote...
Even through a refusal win there would be consequences that could result in a possible ME4. In a conventional victory the galaxys forces would be so badly damaged that the Leviathans will see this as a chance to reclaim their sopt as the head of the galaxy.

But that isn't really a consequence at all then since, in order to set up a sequel, it would have to be canon and thus happen no matter what.

[Jadebaby]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

It's funny you should say that because the Crucible being "a reaper enigmatic trap" fits more within the lore than it being a "face value" weapon against the Reapers.

Possibly true. In which case narrative coherence would demand that you lose, not that conventional victory is possible.

Which is again funny, because the narrative coherence demanding we lose against the Reapers fits with them being Space Cthulhu's as well.

CronoDragoon wrote...

If you turn out to be correct, I will put in my sig, "Jade was right! I should have listened!" for a month.

Deal?

Deal!  If I'm wrong, I will put in my sig "Oh CronoDragoon, guide thy to a better path of enlightenment." Also for a month.

[Jadebaby]

Han Shot First wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...


Exactly, refuse requires a bravery on a total idiotic level. That's why it gets confused with cowardice. You're given choices to end it right then and there. Yet you don't? That's not indecisiveness or inaction. That's bravery for standing up for what you TRULY believed in. And "I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop YOU!"  And people still believe the Child isn't a villian? pfft.

Bravery?

Sure, because Shepard is condemning himself to death.

But it also represents stupidity of epic proportions because he's also condemning his own species to extinction, along with every other known space faring civilzation. Refuse represents a Shepard who puts his own pride before the survival of his species. It turns him into a military leader who actually chooses to lose the war he's fighting. If there was anyone left to remember him at all (there isn't) he'd be mentioned along with Vidkun Quisling or Benedict Arnold. He'd be remembered as a traitor.

Thankfully, there isn't any possibility that Bioware would ever make stupidity of such astronomical proportions canon.

Oh boy.. The problem with these sorts of posts about refuse ending is they're always metagaming the overall choice including the result. Rather than just the "act" of refusing. It's that act that makes it not seem so stupid. You are presented with three choices, two and a half of them kill you. The one presenting them is the head-honcho of the enemy you've been fighting for 4 years. Sorry if I didn't see refuse as anything other than the logical choice.

[KENNY4753]

CronoDragoon wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...
Even through a refusal win there would be consequences that could result in a possible ME4. In a conventional victory the galaxys forces would be so badly damaged that the Leviathans will see this as a chance to reclaim their sopt as the head of the galaxy.

But that isn't really a consequence at all then since, in order to set up a sequel, it would have to be canon and thus happen no matter what.

Yes I agree. and if they made it canon it will upset the least amount of fans I think because the 3 endings as they are if only one is chosen as canon all otherswill be angry. Choosing a canon ending in general will cause some to be angry but imo a refuse win would be the best canon choice for ME sequel upsetting the least amount of fans. Plus if they want a ME sequel a non-canon ending would never work. They won't want to make 3 or possibly 4 new games to create one game.

Modifié par KENNY4753, 19 septembre 2012 - 04:54 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Wait. Create entirely new galactic civilizations for ME because Shepard refused? No thank you. I love new stuff, but if you take humanity out of the picture as well as the other races I enjoyed, it's simply not MEU anymore. And no, I won't accept species that are ~kinda the same as the old ones but different~ either. Gimme the universe I saved or GTFO.

Destroy should be canon, as it follows what they've already established for new games: start at the bare-minimum requirement to finish the last game. For ME3, that's Low EMS Destroy. Losses wil be immense, but the galaxy can restart and go back to normal some 100 years later. At which point, ME4 can take place.

I didn't think they'd consider making Synthesis canon, but after ME3, I learned not to put anything past the BW team. If they really do it, I will cry. With laughter. But I'll be very interested to play and see what they did. It'll hopefully put the silly idea of "everything's all happy in synthesis" to rest.

[Jadebaby]

What if refuse was successful HYR 2.0?

[Rob Psyence]

Picking refuse IS selfish...letting everyone die and be reduced to biological soup for re-purposing into another reaper and turned into husks just because you don't want to play the catalyst AI's game is definitely selfish. The whole game everyone is putting their hearts into making the crucible work and you throw it in the trash and waste their efforts. Refusing is the most bleak and hopeless ending of them all and you ask if it'd be successful as canon? I can't take that seriously. I picked it just to see what happened, then reloaded and picked my initial decision, destroy.

Btw picking destroy, contrary to popular belief, does not kill everyone it just kills existing AI platforms. It's similar to an EMP but more exact..

[Han Shot First]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...


Exactly, refuse requires a bravery on a total idiotic level. That's why it gets confused with cowardice. You're given choices to end it right then and there. Yet you don't? That's not indecisiveness or inaction. That's bravery for standing up for what you TRULY believed in. And "I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop YOU!"  And people still believe the Child isn't a villian? pfft.

Bravery?

Sure, because Shepard is condemning himself to death.

But it also represents stupidity of epic proportions because he's also condemning his own species to extinction, along with every other known space faring civilzation. Refuse represents a Shepard who puts his own pride before the survival of his species. It turns him into a military leader who actually chooses to lose the war he's fighting. If there was anyone left to remember him at all (there isn't) he'd be mentioned along with Vidkun Quisling or Benedict Arnold. He'd be remembered as a traitor.

Thankfully, there isn't any possibility that Bioware would ever make stupidity of such astronomical proportions canon.

Oh boy.. The problem with these sorts of posts about refuse ending is they're always metagaming the overall choice including the result. Rather than just the "act" of refusing. It's that act that makes it not seem so stupid. You are presented with three choices, two and a half of them kill you. The one presenting them is the head-honcho of the enemy you've been fighting for 4 years. Sorry if I didn't see refuse as anything other than the logical choice.

There isn't any metagaming involved, because by refusing to use the superweapon Shepard is relying solely on the combined fleets to win conventionally. Even without foreknowledge of how that choice plays out the result was entirely predictable. The combined fleets did not have the ability to defeat the Reapers conventionally, and as such Shepard choosing Refuse represents military incompetence.

It would be the equivalent of the US spending years and countless resources developing atomic weapons, only deciding not to use that superweapon to end the Second World War. Shepard's decision is also arguably worse, as victory hinged on the decision to use a superweapon. With the atom bomb at least Japan's eventual defeat was never in question, just the amount of casualties suffered in getting there.

[KENNY4753]

canon ending for ME3:

The Warden got transported through Morrigan's magic mirror to the Mass Effect universe and performed some crazy sex ritual with Liara and defeated the Reapers without sacrificing his life.

and in ME4 Hawke gets transported through Merrill's magic mirror and causes an all out war between the galaxy and Leviathans

then both the Warden and Hawke disappear again.

Modifié par KENNY4753, 19 septembre 2012 - 05:13 .

[ThaDPG]

LilLino wrote...

The only 2 endings that could be cannon and into the future would be control or destroy
Personally I prefer destroy. Biggest freedom and heavy casualties. Lots of possibilities.

And Refuse? Really? Are you guys mad? It's the worst choice ever. It's a choice of a coward not a Military Man or N7. Too weak to handle a tough choice? I can't believe someone roleyplays Shepard like that.
Besides that'd not be Mass Effect universe as we know it with completely different aliens. Bah, there wouldn't even be humans anymore. Sorry OP but this is just stupid.

Have you heard the speech shepard gives with the refusal option?  It's brilliant, makes you really wanna take it to the Reapers, and this wouldn't be the first story where the protagonist goes against all odds and beats them

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

What if refuse was successful HYR 2.0?

I put 0 stock into successful Refuse ever happening. If it does, you can find me and make me eat my crow. But I would bet the farm that it won't happen. While I don't put anything past Bioware, the message against conventional victory is clear as day. They won't do it, they don't want to.

Even then, it wouldn't be the bare-minimum, that would still be Low EMS Destroy. You need the right EMS to Refuse. Shooting the catalyst doesn't count; that's an easter-egg, not a chosen action.

[Jadebaby]

KENNY4753 wrote...

canon ending for ME3:

The Warden got transported through Morrigan's magic mirror to the Mass Effect universe and performed some crazy sex ritual with Liara and defeated the Reapers without sacrificing his life.

and in ME4 Hawke gets transported through Merrill's magic mirror and causes an all out war between the galaxy and Leviathans

then both the Warden and Hawke disappear again.

Don't forget Dragon Age 3 Inquisition where Shepard comes out the other side of Merrill's magic mirror and prevents an all out war between mages and templars by Synthesizing the fade.

[Jadebaby]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

What if refuse was successful HYR 2.0?

I put 0 stock into successful Refuse ever happening. If it does, you can find me and make me eat my crow. But I would bet the farm that it won't happen. While I don't put anything past Bioware, the message against conventional victory is clear as day. They won't do it, they don't want to.

Even then, it wouldn't be the bare-minimum, that would still be Low EMS Destroy. You need the right EMS to Refuse. Shooting the catalyst doesn't count; that's an easter-egg, not a chosen action.

2800 EMS, and you still haven't answered my question.

[ThaDPG]

How many times has the protagonist of a story refused to give up his/her morals, and still come out on top in the face of impossible odds? Too many to count. This isn't real life, this is science fiction, and it's a video game, not "ART" as others would have you believe. BW still has room to write themselves out of this hole, via DLC or full blown expansion, with a successful refusal, plus any additional "unconventional" assets we might obtain through all SP DLC's

[KENNY4753]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

canon ending for ME3:

The Warden got transported through Morrigan's magic mirror to the Mass Effect universe and performed some crazy sex ritual with Liara and defeated the Reapers without sacrificing his life.

and in ME4 Hawke gets transported through Merrill's magic mirror and causes an all out war between the galaxy and Leviathans

then both the Warden and Hawke disappear again.

Don't forget Dragon Age 3 Inquisition where Shepard comes out the other side of Merrill's magic mirror and prevents an all out war between mages and templars by Synthesizing the fade.

The crucible explosion was so strong it knocked Shepard into another deimension and at the end he had 4 choices:

1. Destroy the mages and templars

2. Control the mages and templars to bring peace.

3. Synthesize all mages and non-mages to bring peace

4. Refuse to do anything and as soon as Shep walks aweay somebody else solves the problem for him

Modifié par KENNY4753, 19 septembre 2012 - 05:26 .

[Han Shot First]

ThaDPG wrote...

How many times has the protagonist of a story refused to give up his/her morals, and still come out on top in the face of impossible odds? Too many to count. This isn't real life, this is science fiction, and it's a video game, not "ART" as others would have you believe. BW still has room to write themselves out of this hole, via DLC or full blown expansion, with a successful refusal, plus any additional "unconventional" assets we might obtain through all SP DLC's

It isn't going to happen.

Bioware announced they were done with the endings after the EC. Any DLC from this point on is going to take place in the middle of the story, much like Leviathan.

[Jadebaby]

Han Shot First wrote...

ThaDPG wrote...

How many times has the protagonist of a story refused to give up his/her morals, and still come out on top in the face of impossible odds? Too many to count. This isn't real life, this is science fiction, and it's a video game, not "ART" as others would have you believe. BW still has room to write themselves out of this hole, via DLC or full blown expansion, with a successful refusal, plus any additional "unconventional" assets we might obtain through all SP DLC's

It isn't going to happen.

Bioware announced they were done with the endings after the EC. Any DLC from this point on is going to take place in the middle of the story, much like Leviathan.

They also firmly stated there would be no new endings in the Extended Cut.