208 réponses à ce sujet

[Emzamination]

berelinde wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

I fail to understand the need for such a drama on the title of the thread because of one line of dialog.

Don't like it ? Don't pick it.

Sure I'll go with the alternative, O wait... there isn't one.

There were three alternative choices. They didn't have little hearts in front of them, but they were still options you could have chosen. I usually go for "Oh, dear, and here I thought it was just a flower."

Some of the flirt options are rather cringeworthy, but you don't have to pick them.

Anders: (gets done telling you that he has irrevocably merged with a Fade spirit)
Hawke: At least he got a nice body.
player: /facepalm

That is my point with the bias, all options lead to you either apologizing, dismissing the aspect of love or both.Which ever you pick, the protagonist is moved in the exact same direction.The same opinion reworded 4 different times is still equal to one opinion.

Modifié par Emzamination, 19 septembre 2012 - 06:02 .

[Maria Caliban]

berelinde wrote...

Should they close their eyes, flail blindly at the keyboard, and hope for the best?

I thought that was how most video games were written?

[Emzamination]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't think this has anything to do with bias. This is just a wheel/paraphrase failure. There's no way to know that's going to be the consequence of selecting that option.

Sylvius this is not a one time thing with her, during the love scene your protagonist is forced to promise her that you'll never pursue any kind of deeper comitment.It's a completely biased one way street.

[LolaLei]

Maria Caliban wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Should they close their eyes, flail blindly at the keyboard, and hope for the best?

I thought that was how most video games were written?

Naw, worker monkeys do it. 

[Atakuma]

Emzamination wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't think this has anything to do with bias. This is just a wheel/paraphrase failure. There's no way to know that's going to be the consequence of selecting that option.

Sylvius this is not a one time thing with her, during the love scene your protagonist is forced to promise her that you'll never pursue any kind of deeper comitment.It's a completely biased one way street.

This is not true. You can do the exact opposite and the relationship will keep going.

[Emzamination]

Atakuma wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't think this has anything to do with bias. This is just a wheel/paraphrase failure. There's no way to know that's going to be the consequence of selecting that option.

Sylvius this is not a one time thing with her, during the love scene your protagonist is forced to promise her that you'll never pursue any kind of deeper comitment.It's a completely biased one way street.

This is not true. You can do the exact opposite and the relationship will keep going.

Scene

[Maclimes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't think this has anything to do with bias. This is just a wheel/paraphrase failure. There's no way to know that's going to be the consequence of selecting that option.

I agree. This isn't a matter of Bioware pushing their personal romantic ideals/beliefs on anyone. It's just a matter of extremely limited player control. 

[Atakuma]

Emzamination wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't think this has anything to do with bias. This is just a wheel/paraphrase failure. There's no way to know that's going to be the consequence of selecting that option.

Sylvius this is not a one time thing with her, during the love scene your protagonist is forced to promise her that you'll never pursue any kind of deeper comitment.It's a completely biased one way street.

This is not true. You can do the exact opposite and the relationship will keep going.

Scene

After the act 2 scene, she says that you shouldn't become attached, you have the option of agreeing but it is not forced upon you.

[Emzamination]

Maclimes wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't think this has anything to do with bias. This is just a wheel/paraphrase failure. There's no way to know that's going to be the consequence of selecting that option.

I agree. This isn't a matter of Bioware pushing their personal romantic ideals/beliefs on anyone. It's just a matter of extremely limited player control. 

When there are 4 dialogue options that all tunnel to the same end point, it's bias and has nothing to do with player control.

[Emzamination]

Atakuma wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't think this has anything to do with bias. This is just a wheel/paraphrase failure. There's no way to know that's going to be the consequence of selecting that option.

Sylvius this is not a one time thing with her, during the love scene your protagonist is forced to promise her that you'll never pursue any kind of deeper comitment.It's a completely biased one way street.

This is not true. You can do the exact opposite and the relationship will keep going.

Scene

After the act 2 scene, she says that you shouldn't become attached, you have the option of agreeing but it is not forced upon you.

Different dialogue, same outcome, point proven.

[berelinde]

Emzamination wrote...

That is my point with the bias, all options lead to you either apologizing, dismissing the aspect of love or both.Which ever you pick, the protagonist is moved in the exact same direction.The same opinion rewarded 4 different times is still equal to one opinion.

If it makes you feel better, the gift-giving exchanges for the other LI's do not offer any greater variety. They were never meant to be deep, meaningful conversations. They're more "atmosphere throw-aways" or flavor conversations.

When writing dialogue for a game, the writer really does have to pay attention to the word count. It affects everything from game performance (based on my experience modding NWN2, large dialogue files can cause instability and crashes on under-powered machines) to voice actor microphone time. It makes sense to offer more choices (and up the word count) in places where they can get more bang for their buck. One of the tricks used to limit word count while still providing some variety is the looping branch dialogue system.

NPC says something
1) PC reply 1 ===> NPC response A
 ===> NPC summary 
2) PC reply 2 ===> NPC response B
 ===> NPC summary 
3) PC reply 3 ===> NPC response C ===> NPC summary

Where NPC summary is the same for all three branches.

Of course, everybody has different ideas of which conversations offer more bang for the buck, but there's nothing you can do about that.

TL;DR: Time is money.

[Maclimes]

Emzamination wrote...

When there are 4 dialogue options that all tunnel to the same end point, it's bias and has nothing to do with player control.

Not, it's just bad writing/design. Bioware said, "The Isabela romance will go like this". Period. Instead of saying, "Here's some options for the Isabela romance."

If it was bias, ALL romances would behave the same way. Given that Isabela's is the only one that's really hardcore "casual sex only", it's safe to say it's just poor design.

[Emzamination]

berelinde wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

That is my point with the bias, all options lead to you either apologizing, dismissing the aspect of love or both.Which ever you pick, the protagonist is moved in the exact same direction.The same opinion rewarded 4 different times is still equal to one opinion.

If it makes you feel better, the gift-giving exchanges for the other LI's do not offer any greater variety. They were never meant to be deep, meaningful conversations. They're more "atmosphere throw-aways" or flavor conversations.

When writing dialogue for a game, the writer really does have to pay attention to the word count. It affects everything from game performance (based on my experience modding NWN2, large dialogue files can cause instability and crashes on under-powered machines) to voice actor microphone time. It makes sense to offer more choices (and up the word count) in places where they can get more bang for their buck. One of the tricks used to limit word count while still providing some variety is the looping branch dialogue system.

NPC says something
1) PC reply 1 ===> NPC response A
 ===> NPC summary 
2) PC reply 2 ===> NPC response B
 ===> NPC summary 
3) PC reply 3 ===> NPC response C ===> NPC summary

Where NPC summary is the same for all three branches.

Of course, everybody has different ideas of which conversations offer more bang for the buck, but there's nothing you can do about that.

TL;DR: Time is money.

That is a horrid practice, I would like to think that the writers take pride in their work and value quality over money.So far I'm doubting.

[Emzamination]

Maclimes wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

When there are 4 dialogue options that all tunnel to the same end point, it's bias and has nothing to do with player control.

Not, it's just bad writing/design. Bioware said, "The Isabela romance will go like this". Period. Instead of saying, "Here's some options for the Isabela romance."

If it was bias, ALL romances would behave the same way. Given that Isabela's is the only one that's really hardcore "casual sex only", it's safe to say it's just poor design.

It is not the sex that's the problem, it's the extreme lack of commitment.Every romance has this issue but they all eventually do enter into a relationship with the protagonist.

Anders - Won't commit because of his Demon

Fenris - Won't commit because his slave master

Merrill - Won't commit because of the mirror

Isabela - Won't commit because she's afraid to love

But that isn't the bias I'm speaking of, the bias comes from lack of an alternative.Bad writing indeed.

Modifié par Emzamination, 19 septembre 2012 - 06:19 .

[Maclimes]

Emzamination wrote...

It is not the sex that's the problem, it's the extreme lack of commitment.Every romance has this issue but they all eventually do enter into a relationship with the protagonist.

Anders - Won't commit because of his Demon

Fenris - Won't commit because his slave master

Merrill - Won't commit because of the mirror

Isabela - Won't commit because she's afraid to love

But that isn't the bias I'm speaking of, the bias comes from lack of an alternative.Bad writing indeed.

You forgot ...

Sebastian - Won't commit because of prior commitment to Andraste/Starkhaven

But yes, I see what you're saying. I'm still not sure that's the same as "bias". But we can agree to disagree. It's largely semantics anyway.

Either way, I bet we both agree that in the future we want to see more choices in our relationships (friends, lovers, and otherwise) in DA3, yes?

[moilami]

Not sure if what you can say or what is said to you during sex should depend on your char's stats. There were references about "great constitution" in DA what Grey Warden's had. So in order to make this game more like RPG and less like adventure game there should maybe be a new stat, which would fill the current void regarding certain things since constitution might not be the final answer.

Examples what an NPC could say.

With low stat.
-oh lol u came already
-u there?
-what's happening?

High stat
-Wooow, I'm in heaven.
-Ooooooooh
-MY GOD

Naturally the Stat should share development points with other stats, forcing you to make difficult selections in, for example, do you want to be awesome in bed or in combat.

Modifié par moilami, 19 septembre 2012 - 06:23 .

[Emzamination]

Maclimes wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

It is not the sex that's the problem, it's the extreme lack of commitment.Every romance has this issue but they all eventually do enter into a relationship with the protagonist.

Anders - Won't commit because of his Demon

Fenris - Won't commit because his slave master

Merrill - Won't commit because of the mirror

Isabela - Won't commit because she's afraid to love

But that isn't the bias I'm speaking of, the bias comes from lack of an alternative.Bad writing indeed.

You forgot ...

Sebastian - Won't commit because of prior commitment to Andraste/Starkhaven

But yes, I see what you're saying. I'm still not sure that's the same as "bias". But we can agree to disagree. It's largely semantics anyway.

Either way, I bet we both agree that in the future we want to see more choices in our relationships (friends, lovers, and otherwise) in DA3, yes?

 


Indeed

[berelinde]

Emzamination wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

That is my point with the bias, all options lead to you either apologizing, dismissing the aspect of love or both.Which ever you pick, the protagonist is moved in the exact same direction.The same opinion rewarded 4 different times is still equal to one opinion.

If it makes you feel better, the gift-giving exchanges for the other LI's do not offer any greater variety. They were never meant to be deep, meaningful conversations. They're more "atmosphere throw-aways" or flavor conversations.

When writing dialogue for a game, the writer really does have to pay attention to the word count. It affects everything from game performance (based on my experience modding NWN2, large dialogue files can cause instability and crashes on under-powered machines) to voice actor microphone time. It makes sense to offer more choices (and up the word count) in places where they can get more bang for their buck. One of the tricks used to limit word count while still providing some variety is the looping branch dialogue system.

NPC says something
1) PC reply 1 ===> NPC response A
 ===> NPC summary 
2) PC reply 2 ===> NPC response B
 ===> NPC summary 
3) PC reply 3 ===> NPC response C ===> NPC summary

Where NPC summary is the same for all three branches.

Of course, everybody has different ideas of which conversations offer more bang for the buck, but there's nothing you can do about that.

TL;DR: Time is money.

That is a horrid practice, I would like to think that the writers take pride in their work and value quality over money.So far I'm doubting.

That's actually the deluxe model. The simplified model is

NPC says something
1) PC reply ===> NPC response
2) PC reply ===> NPC response
3) PC reply ===> NPC response
Where NPC response is the same for all three.

I feel your pain. Writers *do* take pride in their work, but they need to eat. Writers working on limited projects, i.e. mods, can afford extensive, convoluted, uniquely customized dialogue trees, but production writers cannot. Without some systems in place to limit the word count, the games would 1) have significantly less conversations, 2) offer significantly more auto-dialogue, or 3) cost 10X as much and take 3X as long to produce.

[Emzamination]

moilami wrote...

Not sure if what you can say or what is said to you during sex should depend on your char's stats. There were references about "great constitution" in DA what Grey Warden's had. So in order to make this game more like RPG and less like adventure game there should maybe be a new stat, which would fill the current void regarding certain things since constitution might not be the final answer.

Examples what an NPC could say.

With low stat.
-oh lol u came already
-u there?
-what's happening?

High stat
-Wooow, I'm in heaven.
-Ooooooooh
-MY GOD

Naturally the Stat should share development points with other stats, forcing you to make difficult selections in, for example, do you want to be awesome in bed or in combat.

Naw, I'm good with automatically being assumed a godly lover

[moilami]

Lol posted to a wrong thread, sorry.

[Ianamus]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't think this has anything to do with bias. This is just a wheel/paraphrase failure. There's no way to know that's going to be the consequence of selecting that option.

It's a heart icon with the paraphrase "I'm not looking for love". I don't think it could have been any more obvious in that situation what Hawke would say if you selected that option. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can still pursue the romance while selecting one of the other responses, can't you? Sure, it may be the only flirt icon, but you could still simply select the diplomatic/ sarcastic response and have the relation continue in the direction you want. 

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Emzamination wrote...

It is not the sex that's the problem, it's the extreme lack of commitment.Every romance has this issue but they all eventually do enter into a relationship with the protagonist.

Anders - Won't commit because of his Demon

Fenris - Won't commit because his slave master

Merrill - Won't commit because of the mirror

Isabela - Won't commit because she's afraid to love

But that isn't the bias I'm speaking of, the bias comes from lack of an alternative.Bad writing indeed.

So because there's more going on in these characters' lives than banging your character, you assume lack of commitment and bad writing.

OK.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 19 septembre 2012 - 06:40 .

[Emzamination]

berelinde wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

That is my point with the bias, all options lead to you either apologizing, dismissing the aspect of love or both.Which ever you pick, the protagonist is moved in the exact same direction.The same opinion rewarded 4 different times is still equal to one opinion.

If it makes you feel better, the gift-giving exchanges for the other LI's do not offer any greater variety. They were never meant to be deep, meaningful conversations. They're more "atmosphere throw-aways" or flavor conversations.

When writing dialogue for a game, the writer really does have to pay attention to the word count. It affects everything from game performance (based on my experience modding NWN2, large dialogue files can cause instability and crashes on under-powered machines) to voice actor microphone time. It makes sense to offer more choices (and up the word count) in places where they can get more bang for their buck. One of the tricks used to limit word count while still providing some variety is the looping branch dialogue system.

NPC says something
1) PC reply 1 ===> NPC response A
 ===> NPC summary 
2) PC reply 2 ===> NPC response B
 ===> NPC summary 
3) PC reply 3 ===> NPC response C ===> NPC summary

Where NPC summary is the same for all three branches.

Of course, everybody has different ideas of which conversations offer more bang for the buck, but there's nothing you can do about that.

TL;DR: Time is money.

That is a horrid practice, I would like to think that the writers take pride in their work and value quality over money.So far I'm doubting.

That's actually the deluxe model. The simplified model is

NPC says something
1) PC reply ===> NPC response
2) PC reply ===> NPC response
3) PC reply ===> NPC response
Where NPC response is the same for all three.

I feel your pain. Writers *do* take pride in their work, but they need to eat. Writers working on limited projects, i.e. mods, can afford extensive, convoluted, uniquely customized dialogue trees, but production writers cannot. Without some systems in place to limit the word count, the games would 1) have significantly less conversations, 2) offer significantly more auto-dialogue, or 3) cost 10X as much and take 3X as long to produce.

They certainly aren't making the best of this system.The origin romances were far deeper, diverse and offered multiple outcomes beginning/middle and end of the romance.For example even tho morrigan leaves either way, during the relationship you can attempt to establish it as just sex or something deeper.Somewhere someone dropped the ball on good writing.The appauling thing is that refuse like that was tested and got approved.I want a game testers P.o.V, where is allan?

[Emzamination]

EJ107 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't think this has anything to do with bias. This is just a wheel/paraphrase failure. There's no way to know that's going to be the consequence of selecting that option.

It's a heart icon with the paraphrase "I'm not looking for love". I don't think it could have been any more obvious in that situation what Hawke would say if you selected that option. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can still pursue the romance while selecting one of the other responses, can't you? Sure, it may be the only flirt icon, but you could still simply select the diplomatic/ sarcastic response and have the relation continue in the direction you want. 

All of them say the same thing, just reworded.

[upsettingshorts]

This is not a wheel/paraphrase failure, Sylvius. She selected a flirt icon and her character flirted. The issue, if we can even call it that, is that the romance with Isabela is for the most part flirty and casual.

She wants something the game wouldn't have offered had it used the DAO dialogue system.