208 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

berelinde wrote...

Are we going to ignore the way friendship/rivalry altered the DA2 romances, or is that irrelevant? A lot of the dialogue was different based on whether Hawke was a friend or a rival.

That's part of what I'm waiting for her to address.  Still waiting.

[Emzamination]

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...

And if we were comparing Witch Hunt to the Isabela DLC that'd be relevant.  Except there isn't any.

In vanilla, there is no commitment from Morrigan to the Warden.  None.  That's why she warns an eager Warden off.  [/quote]

Skip down to the wynne and morrigan dialogue, particularly to "You disaprove of my involvement with our stalwart grey warden"

Source

[quote]As if he entertains that idea for a second.[/quote]

Permutation is permutation.I've delivered the requirement

[quote]You mean how you can getIsabela to talk about love and eventually have a serious relationship?[/quote]

Beginning middle and end. Let's not lose sight of these things.

[quote]Still waiting for the DA2 romances and how they're so much more limited or whatever it is your point was.[/quote]

O there was more? and here I thought you just asked for permutations of origin romances.Ask again in a bit, too much writing.



[quote]Emzamination wrote...

The ending is not as important as the journey itself, on that we'll agree to disagree[/quote]

This is nonsense in context.  I have advocated nothing of the sort, and you have advocated nothing of the sort.

[/quote]

Sure you didn't link

[Dhiro]

Sorry, I'm trying to get a good grasp about your opinion. You are upset because the flirt option didn't allow you to pursue a more serious relationship with Isabela? Have you tried the other ones?

[Conduit0]

Maclimes wrote...

It occurs to me that this is a likely scenario:

The writers wanted Hawke to be non-committed at the end of the game, so they could potentially do something specific in a later game. So romance is possible, but not long-term commitment.

Nope, in Varric's epilogue he specificly states that the LI stays with Hawke even after everyone else goes there own way. Which tells me that Bioware's intention was that the LI would be a life long companion for Hawke.


Honestly this whole thread is pretty faceplam worthy since it boils down to, the OP screwed up the relationship minigame(and yes thats exactly what it is) and instead of accepting that they messed and reloading a save, decided to come on to the forums and whine to Bioware.

I mean seriously, what do you want? Do you want little hints added to the wheel that says things like, "this option will persue a deeper relationship" or, "This option will friendzone you"?

[Emzamination]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

That's nonsense.  Yes, Isabela says you shouldn't become attached,
because Isabela fears commitment.  That has nothing to do with anything
beong forced on the player.

The protagonist must continuously reform to the idea of no commitment which is being forced on the player.

The player then has the option to voice agreement, voice disagreement, or offer no comment.  Openly disagreeing with Isabela upsets her, and ends the relationship.  Again, that's just how Isabela is.  But none of those options require that Hawke actually approves of how Isabela approaches relationships.

So much for diverse paths ai?

Then, as mentioned, you can eventually form a lasting bond with Isabela.  You're not forced to do anything.

At the very end of the game, not remotely good enough.

I don't understand why you're complaining, unless you think that you have to choose the Flirt options to maintain a romance, and that everything Hawke says is necessarily something Hawke believes, and that if Hawke ever has an opinion about something Hawke absolutely must voice it.

But none of those are true.

I'm complaining because all dialogue paths lead to the same conversational outcome, there is no diversity.

Modifié par Emzamination, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:49 .

[Renmiri1]

Conduit0 wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

It occurs to me that this is a likely scenario:

The writers wanted Hawke to be non-committed at the end of the game, so they could potentially do something specific in a later game. So romance is possible, but not long-term commitment.

Nope, in Varric's epilogue he specificly states that the LI stays with Hawke even after everyone else goes there own way. Which tells me that Bioware's intention was that the LI would be a life long companion for Hawke.


Honestly this whole thread is pretty faceplam worthy since it boils down to, the OP screwed up the relationship minigame(and yes thats exactly what it is) and instead of accepting that they messed and reloading a save, decided to come on to the forums and whine to Bioware.

I mean seriously, what do you want? Do you want little hints added to the wheel that says things like, "this option will persue a deeper relationship" or, "This option will friendzone you"?

QFT 

[Emzamination]

Dhiro wrote...

Sorry, I'm trying to get a good grasp about your opinion. You are upset because the flirt option didn't allow you to pursue a more serious relationship with Isabela? Have you tried the other ones?

There is no point as they all have the same outcome, guiding the relationship in the way the writer wants.I'd compare it to hopelessly swimming against a raging tide.You can keep pointlessly but the tide is never going to change.

[upsettingshorts]

Emzamination wrote...

Skip down to the wynne and morrigan dialogue, particularly to "You disaprove of my involvement with our stalwart grey warden"

Source

Morrigan: You do not approve of me, do you?
Wynne: You have to ask? I didn't realize I was being subtle.
Morrigan: Ah, the old cat still has her claws, I see. And you also do not approve of my involvement with our stalwart Grey Warden.
Wynne: You are dangerous, Morrigan. Dangerous, cunning and thoroughly deceitful. But you are beautiful, and he is young. It's a pity he doesn't know any better.
Morrigan: Why, Wynne, I do believe that is the first time you have ever offered a compliment. Thank you.
Wynne: Only you would take that as a compliment.
Morrigan: Listen, old woman. what happens between myself and him is not your concern. You can approve or not approve as you wish, but this is one thing you cannot influence and mold to your liking.
Wynne: So you say. I do hope that one day soon you will discover that neither is he.
Morrigan: You mistake my intent, old cat. And you are a fool.
Wynne: Am I? Well, let's hope so.

Well that proved nothing whatsoever, certainly not whatever you think it does.

Emzamination wrote... 
Permutation is permutation.I've delivered the requirement

You haven't though, by your own standards.  Because choosing a different option for your character and having the NPC still feel a certain way is "appauling."  

Either you can manipulate how a romance plays out through your protagonist's sheer force of will (and this is allegedly a good thing) or you cannot.   Alistair is head over heels the whole time if you pursue his romance at all.

Emzamination wrote...  

Beginning middle and end. Let's not lose sight of these things.

You still haven't posted these for DA2.

Emzamination wrote...

O there was more? and here I thought you just asked for permutations of origin romances.Ask again in a bit, too much writing.

Your position from the start has been that DAO romances were, "far deeper, diverse and offered multiple outcomes beginning/middle and end of the romance." It is impossible to prove this assertion without making a comparison between the two on consistent terms. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate the relative lack of depth, diversity, multiple outcomes, and alleged beginning/middle/end.

And that consistency is lacking.

Emzamination wrote...

Sure you didn't link

Ah so you actually are having a hard time following along.

The point of that was to say that Isabela can commit, which was a response to your claim that she does not.

Is it therefore your assertion that the commitment has to come earlier for it to count as "part of the romance?"

If so, why doesn't the fact Isabela agrees to commitment at the end count as being a new phase of the relationship? You know, as part of your vague beginning/middle/end concept?

[Emzamination]

berelinde wrote...

Are we going to ignore the way friendship/rivalry altered the DA2 romances, or is that irrelevant? A lot of the dialogue was different based on whether Hawke was a friend or a rival.

Dialogue is not the issue.It didn't alter the relationship in anyway beyond the Illusionary.

[wright1978]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

It occurs to me that this is a likely scenario:

The writers wanted Hawke to be non-committed at the end of the game, so they could potentially do something specific in a later game. So romance is possible, but not long-term commitment.

Nope, in Varric's epilogue he specificly states that the LI stays with Hawke even after everyone else goes there own way. Which tells me that Bioware's intention was that the LI would be a life long companion for Hawke.


Honestly this whole thread is pretty faceplam worthy since it boils down to, the OP screwed up the relationship minigame(and yes thats exactly what it is) and instead of accepting that they messed and reloading a save, decided to come on to the forums and whine to Bioware.

I mean seriously, what do you want? Do you want little hints added to the wheel that says things like, "this option will persue a deeper relationship" or, "This option will friendzone you"?

QFT 

Yep

[upsettingshorts]

Emzamination wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

That's nonsense.  Yes, Isabela says you shouldn't become attached,
because Isabela fears commitment.  That has nothing to do with anything
beong forced on the player.

The protagonist must continuously reform to the idea of no commitment which is being forced on the player.

So your issue is you can't force a shotgun wedding or something?

You want to commit.  You are given the option to say so.  They are not on board with it.  

The roleplaying demand is served (your option to assert your position) and their characterization is served (they are not ready).

For some of them, this changes.  For others, it kind of doesn't.  That's because they're characters with their own perspectives and agendas, that you clearly do not respect.

Emzamination wrote...

At the very end of the game, not remotely good enough.

 

Why not? 

Also, now would be a fantastic time to explain just what you meant by "some things should remain sacred."

[Sylvius the Mad]

Emzamination wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

That's nonsense.  Yes, Isabela says you shouldn't become attached, because Isabela fears commitment.  That has nothing to do with anything beong forced on the player.

The protagonist must continuously reform to the idea of no commitment which is being forced on the player.

Except you don't.  You can choose instead to offend Isabela.

The player then has the option to voice agreement, voice disagreement, or offer no comment.  Openly disagreeing with Isabela upsets her, and ends the relationship.  Again, that's just how Isabela is.  But none of those options require that Hawke actually approves of how Isabela approaches relationships.

So much for diverse paths ai?

There are two clear paths.  Either pander to Isabela's insecurity, or don't.  Not doing that offends Isabela.

Then, as mentioned, you can eventually form a lasting bond with Isabela.  You're not forced to do anything.

At the very end of the game, not remotely good enough.

Basically what you're saying here is that you don't like Isabela. 

And that's fine, you're not required to like Isabela.  I don't like Fenris.  But that doesn't mean that Isabela or Fenris are advancing some secret agenda - just that they're well-written characters.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:57 .

[Dhiro]

Emzamination wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Sorry, I'm trying to get a good grasp about your opinion. You are upset because the flirt option didn't allow you to pursue a more serious relationship with Isabela? Have you tried the other ones?

There is no point as they all have the same outcome, guiding the relationship in the way the writer wants.I'd compare it to hopelessly swimming against a raging tide.You can keep pointlessly but the tide is never going to change.

So choosing the other three answers will end up with Hawke agreeing that s/he only wants sex from the relationship?

[Emzamination]

Conduit0 wrote...

Maclimes wrote...

It occurs to me that this is a likely scenario:

The writers wanted Hawke to be non-committed at the end of the game, so they could potentially do something specific in a later game. So romance is possible, but not long-term commitment.

Nope, in Varric's epilogue he specificly states that the LI stays with Hawke even after everyone else goes there own way. Which tells me that Bioware's intention was that the LI would be a life long companion for Hawke.


Honestly this whole thread is pretty faceplam worthy since it boils down to, the OP screwed up the relationship minigame(and yes thats exactly what it is) and instead of accepting that they messed and reloading a save, decided to come on to the forums and whine to Bioware.

I mean seriously, what do you want? Do you want little hints added to the wheel that says things like, "this option will persue a deeper relationship" or, "This option will friendzone you"?

/facepalm That's about all the attention I'll devote to that.Try reading the thread next time or atleast attempting to comprehend it better.

[mesmerizedish]

Emzamination wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Are we going to ignore the way friendship/rivalry altered the DA2 romances, or is that irrelevant? A lot of the dialogue was different based on whether Hawke was a friend or a rival.

Dialogue is not the issue.It didn't alter the relationship in anyway beyond the Illusionary.

So your complaint then is that Isabela is a consistent character?

Okay.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Emzamination wrote...

There is no point as they all have the same outcome, guiding the relationship in the way the writer wants.

Because that's the only relationship in which Isabela is interested.

You're not forced to romance her.  Ending the relationship is a possible outcome, and you're completely ignoring it.

[Fast Jimmy]

Edit: Ignore. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 19 septembre 2012 - 08:03 .

[Emzamination]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well that proved nothing whatsoever, certainly not whatever you think it does.

It proved she was in a comitment with the warden vanilla game which counter acts your argument that morrigan never commited to anything.I'm just going to leave it at that as I don't believe you're going to just admit you were wrong.

You haven't though, by your own standards.  Because choosing a different
option for your character and having the NPC still feel a certain way
is "appauling."

Either you can manipulate how a romance plays out through your
protagonist's sheer force of will (and this is allegedly a good thing)
or you cannot.   Alistair is head over heels the whole time if you
pursue his romance at all.

Funny, I could've sworn alistair attempts to break up with you should you establish you're using him for sex and reprimands his love should you tell him something more.O look two different scenerios and 2 different states of mind based on the npcs feelings.

The bolded: Totally irrelavant to our argument of the protagonist being able to alter the state of the relationship.

You still haven't posted these for DA2.

What does this have to do with Zevran?

Your position from the start has been that DAO romances were, "far
deeper, diverse and offered multiple outcomes beginning/middle and end
of the romance." It is impossible to prove this assertion without
making a comparison between the two on consistent terms. The burden of
proof is on you to demonstrate the relative lack of depth, diversity,
multiple outcomes, and alleged beginning/middle/end.
And that consistency is lacking.

You're correct shorts,

Merrill: Beginning: Heavy flirting,Middle: Sleep with her and declare your love or she breaks up with you,End:She wants to better herself for the protagonist.

Anders: Beginning: Heavy flirting,Middle: Sleep with him and accept justice or break up,End: Help him in his templar genocide or kill him.

Fenris: Beginning: Heavy flirting, Middle: Break up or sleep with him and watch him run out on you, end: Sale him (same as breaking up) or he tries to better himself

Isabella: Beginning: Heavy flirting, Middle: Accept casual sex relationship or break up, end: she takes a chance on love or breaks up with the protagonist

Gah that was depressing to write

Ah so you actually are having a hard time following along.

The point of that was to say that Isabela can commit, which was a response to your claim that she does not.

Is it therefore your assertion that the commitment has to come earlier for it to count as "part of the romance?"

If
so, why doesn't the fact Isabela agrees to commitment at the end count
as being a new phase of the relationship? You know, as part of your
vague beginning/middle/end concept?

Actually I said they all commit eventually making your statement a moot point.My issue is not with the end.

[AtreiyaN7]

The icons don't push you to do anything - they're indicators, and you either choose to click on the icon or you don't, Just say no?

Then again, after dealing with multiple author-related headaches for several weeks now, I've come to the conclusion that there are a great many people who are so clueless that they can't even manage to do the simplest things despite being given repeated explanations, instructions, and examples in terms simple enough for even a kindergartener to understand.

Kind of like this one author who apparently couldn't understand my three-step (semi-facetious, semi-serious) process to creating a document using Word. This guy insists on sending his massive multi-page edits through individual e-mails. Here's that three-step process that even a monkey should be able to follow:

1. Double-click on the Word icon on your desktop.
2. Start typing.
3. Save your document!

Yet that author just doesn't get it. I'm 99% sure that clicking or not clicking on a heart icon is even less difficult than that.

[Emzamination]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Are we going to ignore the way friendship/rivalry altered the DA2 romances, or is that irrelevant? A lot of the dialogue was different based on whether Hawke was a friend or a rival.

Dialogue is not the issue.It didn't alter the relationship in anyway beyond the Illusionary.

So your complaint then is that Isabela is a consistent character?

Okay.

No my complaint is with the lack of divergance in the relationship itself and how the protagonist is forced to go along or end it making any disagreement on their part moot.I've stated this many times but no one is bothering to read so I'll not state it again.

[Emzamination]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

That's nonsense.  Yes, Isabela says you shouldn't become attached, because Isabela fears commitment.  That has nothing to do with anything beong forced on the player.

The protagonist must continuously reform to the idea of no commitment which is being forced on the player.

Except you don't.  You can choose instead to offend Isabela.

And she breaks up with you

And she breaks up with you, proving just how static things are.

The player then has the option to voice agreement, voice disagreement, or offer no comment.  Openly disagreeing with Isabela upsets her, and ends the relationship.  Again, that's just how Isabela is.  But none of those options require that Hawke actually approves of how Isabela approaches relationships.

So much for diverse paths ai?

There are two clear paths.  Either pander to Isabela's insecurity, or don't.  Not doing that offends Isabela.

which effectively ends the romance meaning the protagonist has one clear cut road ahead of them if they wish to pursue her, no?

Basically what you're saying here is that you don't like Isabela.

And that's fine, you're not required to like Isabela.  I don't like Fenris.  But that doesn't mean that Isabela or Fenris are advancing some secret agenda - just that they're well-written characters.

No, I'm saying the relationship is static and one sided.The comitment
is not the issue, the issue is the lack of any form of an alternative path.In short it's very linear.

Modifié par Emzamination, 19 septembre 2012 - 08:34 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Emzamination wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Aw man, how did I manage to miss this scene! Tsk.

It's illusive, after owning the game since release I just found out it was in the sewers.

Elusive.  Illusive means that it produces illusions.  Elusive means it eludes you, i.e. it is difficult to locate or capture. 

Honestly, Bioware can't win.  If the character has their own mind and doesn't do whatever the player wants, that character is badly written/biased/not realistic.  If the character is pushed hither and yon by any whim of the player, that character is badly written/biased/not realistic.

Just accept that there is a limited amount of lattitude for giving you exactly what you want, that romances are highly personal and thus highly specific, and if you don't like one particular one just MOVE ON.

 

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 19 septembre 2012 - 08:40 .

[Emzamination]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

The icons don't push you to do anything - they're indicators, and you either choose to click on the icon or you don't, Just say no?

Then again, after dealing with multiple author-related headaches for several weeks now, I've come to the conclusion that there are a great many people who are so clueless that they can't even manage to do the simplest things despite being given repeated explanations, instructions, and examples in terms simple enough for even a kindergartener to understand.

Kind of like this one author who apparently couldn't understand my three-step (semi-facetious, semi-serious) process to creating a document using Word. This guy insists on sending his massive multi-page edits through individual e-mails. Here's that three-step process that even a monkey should be able to follow:

1. Double-click on the Word icon on your desktop.
2. Start typing.
3. Save your document!

Yet that author just doesn't get it. I'm 99% sure that clicking or not clicking on a heart icon is even less difficult than that.

Not remotely pertaining to what I'm talking about... condescension fail

[Emzamination]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Aw man, how did I manage to miss this scene! Tsk.

It's illusive, after owning the game since release I just found out it was in the sewers.

Elusive.

Thanks

[upsettingshorts]

Emzamination wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well that proved nothing whatsoever, certainly not whatever you think it does.

It proved she was in a comitment with the warden vanilla game which counter acts your argument that morrigan never commited to anything.I'm just going to leave it at that as I don't believe you're going to just admit you were wrong.

No it doesn't.  Does literally anyone else reading this thread share your interpretation?  Come on, speak up folks.  Agree or disagree?

My interpretation is:

Wynne:  "You're manipulative and the Warden doesn't understand."
Morrigan:  "Who cares?  Stay out of it, old woman."

Emzamination wrote...

O look two different scenerios and 2 different states of mind based on the npcs feelings.

So just like DA2 then?  

Emzamination wrote... 

What does this have to do with Zevran?

A lot, considering you're complaining about Isabela, a somewhat similar romance.

Emzamination wrote...  

Merrill: Beginning: Heavy flirting,Middle: Sleep with her and declare your love or she breaks up with you,End:She wants to better herself for the protagonist.

Anders: Beginning: Heavy flirting,Middle: Sleep with him and accept justice or break up,End: Help him in his templar genocide or kill him.

Fenris: Beginning: Heavy flirting, Middle: Break up or sleep with him and watch him run out on you, end: Sale him (same as breaking up) or he tries to better himself

Isabella: Beginning: Heavy flirting, Middle: Accept casual sex relationship or break up, end: she takes a chance on love or breaks up with the protagonist

You can enter into any of those relationships with the possible exception of Isabela without flirting more than once (and even then, in Merrill's case, you could hardly consider the first icon a flirt since she doesn't even notice).  

You completely ignore the incredibly significant implications of the Friend/Rivalry system, which alters the way each romance plays out.

Anders is very, very serious before he sleeps with you.  In fact, if you claim afterwords that it was only sex, he is shocked and "appauled" and walks out on you for "using him."

Isabela also has two different paths.  In the Friend romance, you basically embrace her hedonistic views until such a state in which she is (more or less) satisfied, as much as someone like her can be.  She realizes she can, with Hawke, truly have the best of both worlds.  In the Rival romance, Hawke challenges her habits and desires as destructive, amoral, and ultimately unsatisfying.  She eventually expresses a desire to become a better person to live up to Hawke's expectations because.

Merrill comes to Hawke's apartment and it eventually leads to sex.  But the conversation in the foyer is more of a confrontation on the Rival path.  That's a difference DAO does not offer.   Furthermore, she confesses her love for you immediately, and if you do not agree that the relationship should be a serious one, she breaks it off immediately.

The lack of attention to detail in your post here is revealing, and it critically damages your argument.  

Emzamination wrote...  

Actually I said they all commit eventually making your statement a moot point.My issue is not with the end.

It seems like your issue is with the fact characters with their own desires and expectations exist.

I hope that the writers do not listen to you, and I'm pretty confident they won't.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 septembre 2012 - 08:43 .