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Piranha and Carnifex Balance Change Preview


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#401
comrade8472

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Eric Fagnan wrote...

Hey everyone, just so you guys aren't left in the dark, here is what we're thinking of changing to the Carnifex and Piranha for next week's balance changes.

Piranha Shotgun
- Clip size decreased from 8 to 6    

Carnifex Pistol
- Encumbrance increased from [1.0-0.5] to [1.2-0.7]




Piranha Shotgun
- Clip size decreased from 8 to 6 =  a 2/8 = 1/4 = 25% nerf to it's DPS. Image IPBImage IPBImage IPB  (Image IPB a too big a nerf. in my opinion. )
Carnifex ??? might as well buff damage by 0.2%-2% as well.   
Paladin damage increase of 2%

now then lets look at consumables... are they multiplicative or additive... ?

I don't think that they are additive,

Modifié par comrade8472, 21 septembre 2012 - 01:13 .


#402
Royvios

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I think people are looking at the "bioware is nerfing popular guns" thing wrong. What the ME3 MP is doing by presenting us with such a large variety of weapons is giving us an environment to play with different classes, builds, and find the niches and synergies within these. When statistics show that one of the ten, twelve, fifteen weapons we get in a weapon type is getting used far more often than the others it shows that said weapon is perhaps not balanced and too powerful.

When you equip every one of your adepts with a Carnifex with out giving any other weapon a second thought it shows that weapon's superiority to other weapons. As such the idea of finding the niche for each weapon becomes irrelevant. I'm also guilty of using the Carnifex, Harrier, Piranha, and Hurricane as go-to weapons because I know they're superior. This is something that directly conflicts with the spirit of the game.

Your build should make your weapon shine and vice-versa. The "slap a Piranha on it and anything will look good" mentality is something I see a lot. It's something that I wish I did not see so often. Bioware is doing their best to try and achieve this while still pleasing the fans. Sometimes nerfs are needed, and these types of nerfs are steps in the right direction. These weapons will still retain their same feel and usefulness with out being or feeling watered down. It'll make the gap between these and the lesser guns a bit smaller so that weapons like the Eagle don't have to make more drastic jumps down the road.

*edited for typos

Modifié par Royvios, 21 septembre 2012 - 12:44 .


#403
B.Shep

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I agree with you Royvios.
As a matter of fact i really try to use diferent weapons with each class and this is funny because it forces me to always change strategy when playing with another character.:)

Modifié par B.Shep, 21 septembre 2012 - 01:46 .


#404
ToaOrka

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Wow, a somewhat reasonable balance change.
I...I'm conflicted.

#405
Royvios

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B.Shep wrote...

I agree with you Royvios.
As a matter of fact i really try to use diferent weapons with each class and this is funny because it forces me to always change strategy when playing with another character.:)


I do the same thing! Admittedly, when I'm trying to get used to a character I use things like the Harrier and Piranha, just to get a feel for them. Then once I figure out their mechanics I start to experiment with my loadouts more. I found some of my favorite combinations this way: BatSol specced for Explosive Blades using the Striker with Incendiary Ammo is one of them. Fire explosions, so many fire explosions.

Being able to try new specs with different load outs is my favorite part of this game, and moderate nerfs are an enabler to making more builds more viable.

#406
Vicious011

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I think a good compromise would be dropping the Piranah to 7 round clip instead of 6 or 8.

#407
GreatBlueHeron

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Why doesn't Bioware listen to the people who spent real money on packs? These nerfs are garbage. I've paid a lot of real money only to see the product I once loved get reduced greatly in value. I guess the joke's on me and everyone else who decided to give mp extra financial support. Fix the game. Stop taking away fun. And listen to your above and beyond paying customers. I've spent enough on packs alone to buy a new console. I played this game to unwind---I'm not a hardcore-play -24- hours- a- day- just to post celebratory videos elitist. No more money.

#408
t3hTwinky

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Probably should have just made the Piranha an ultra rare.

Good gear should be hard to get, and your reward for getting it should be that it's really good. Isn't that kind of the point? :?

#409
himegoto

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Royvios wrote...

I think people are looking at the "bioware is nerfing popular guns" thing wrong. What the ME3 MP is doing by presenting us with such a large variety of weapons is giving us an environment to play with different classes, builds, and find the niches and synergies within these. When statistics show that one of the ten, twelve, fifteen weapons we get in a weapon type is getting used far more often than the others it shows that said weapon is perhaps not balanced and too powerful.

When you equip every one of your adepts with a Carnifex with out giving any other weapon a second thought it shows that weapon's superiority to other weapons. As such the idea of finding the niche for each weapon becomes irrelevant. I'm also guilty of using the Carnifex, Harrier, Piranha, and Hurricane as go-to weapons because I know they're superior. This is something that directly conflicts with the spirit of the game.

Your build should make your weapon shine and vice-versa. The "slap a Piranha on it and anything will look good" mentality is something I see a lot. It's something that I wish I did not see so often. Bioware is doing their best to try and achieve this while still pleasing the fans. Sometimes nerfs are needed, and these types of nerfs are steps in the right direction. These weapons will still retain their same feel and usefulness with out being or feeling watered down. It'll make the gap between these and the lesser guns a bit smaller so that weapons like the Eagle don't have to make more drastic jumps down the road.

*edited for typos

Actually, no.
They should've bring those useless guns up to speed than nerfing the existing good ones. Either way it's a trend.
Give us a good weapon, nerf it after and
Give us an useless weapon, nerf good weapons to its level.
Krysae may be an extreme example, but the weapon was totally destroyed.

The "slap a Piranha on it and anything will look good" only are for players with a small manifest.
I only use the piranha on my Drellguard (Yeah, guess which classes will take the biggest hit.), Batarians, Turian soldier.
Everything else I use a different weapon and with good reasons. For example Talon on GI, GPS and Indra on Destroyer, Harriar and Reegar on Demolisher. Claymore on Shadow and Hsoldier.
So it's not even about limiting myself, but these other weapons simply perform much better in those classes.

And look at the way of "balancing" things again. Are there any reason they wont be nerfing those 6 weapons I just mentioned in some way next?
It's funny how many people are suddenly okay with this when they see the mild change in the thread.

It's true that some of those weapons I named are UR and only a few have them maxed. But if you argue that Bioware is just trying to make the UR weapons better then they are failing at doing that job. No not even about the nerfing everything vs buffing talk but more about the pace they are doing it.
Let's see how many are still an avid ME3 player here in 3 months.

#410
himegoto

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GreatBlueHeron wrote...

Why doesn't Bioware listen to the people who spent real money on packs? These nerfs are garbage. I've paid a lot of real money only to see the product I once loved get reduced greatly in value. I guess the joke's on me and everyone else who decided to give mp extra financial support. Fix the game. Stop taking away fun. And listen to your above and beyond paying customers. I've spent enough on packs alone to buy a new console. I played this game to unwind---I'm not a hardcore-play -24- hours- a- day- just to post celebratory videos elitist. No more money.

I never spent money on this game simply because I hate gambling. In game credits earn is okay but real money on gambling? **** that.

And this is precisely the example I've been talking about. I can imagine that it sucks for you because more than anything you play a game to have fun. To have fun with your build without somebody possibly taking it away every week....... Especially after you spent real money on them.

Meanwhile, glitches from day 1 are still present.
Off topic but the forum server really sucks? A dozen times now I am typing up a post mid way and the page lost connection?? I have a great connection thank you.

#411
mackfactor

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Royvios wrote...

I think people are looking at the "bioware is nerfing popular guns" thing wrong. What the ME3 MP is doing by presenting us with such a large variety of weapons is giving us an environment to play with different classes, builds, and find the niches and synergies within these. When statistics show that one of the ten, twelve, fifteen weapons we get in a weapon type is getting used far more often than the others it shows that said weapon is perhaps not balanced and too powerful.

When you equip every one of your adepts with a Carnifex with out giving any other weapon a second thought it shows that weapon's superiority to other weapons. As such the idea of finding the niche for each weapon becomes irrelevant. I'm also guilty of using the Carnifex, Harrier, Piranha, and Hurricane as go-to weapons because I know they're superior. This is something that directly conflicts with the spirit of the game.

Your build should make your weapon shine and vice-versa. The "slap a Piranha on it and anything will look good" mentality is something I see a lot. It's something that I wish I did not see so often. Bioware is doing their best to try and achieve this while still pleasing the fans. Sometimes nerfs are needed, and these types of nerfs are steps in the right direction. These weapons will still retain their same feel and usefulness with out being or feeling watered down. It'll make the gap between these and the lesser guns a bit smaller so that weapons like the Eagle don't have to make more drastic jumps down the road.

*edited for typos


This. The only problem I have with the Piranha is that I feel like there's little reason to use any other CQC weapon when the Piranha can chew through enemies so fast. I'd like to be able to use other weapons in different ways and be just as effective. Granted, I also don't want to see the Piranha cut down to the point where it's not good at what it's supposed to be good at. The nerf they're talking about here takes away no damage, no ROF (which also would have been acceptable to me) while forcing slightly smarter tactics with the weapon. It's still a CHARGEINKILLALLTHETHInGS gun, but now you have to be a little more tactical about what you're shooting and when you shoot it. Which is really how it should be for a melee-range enemy smasher. This seems like a reasonable nerf to me.

:bandit:

#412
Guest_TheCourier_1_*

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Royvios wrote...

I do the same thing! Admittedly, when I'm trying to get used to a character I use things like the Harrier and Piranha, just to get a feel for them. Then once I figure out their mechanics I start to experiment with my loadouts more. I found some of my favorite combinations this way: BatSol specced for Explosive Blades using the Striker with Incendiary Ammo is one of them. Fire explosions, so many fire explosions.

Being able to try new specs with different load outs is my favorite part of this game, and moderate nerfs are an enabler to making more builds more viable.



How do moderate nerfs make more builds more viable?
Sorry, but I disagree. I think moderate buffs make builds more viable. Makes sense, unless you mean that moderate nerfs would force people to use other classes and builds.

Maybe I've just played this game for far too long, and have become very set in my ways. I've got my favourite guns and builds. I've tried different builds, and my favourites are the ones that are compatible with my internet connection, lag, my play-style, free-time factor, the sort of PUGs I play with, my real-life commitments + patience, my skill level, and what I find entertaining (Cerberus headshots with a Carnifex, double points if Guardian through the mailslot).

I have fun with Carnifex, I don't have fun with the Eagle. That's not the Carnifex's fault.

I'm not normally this immature, but with the weekend shaping up to be a really social one, I'm sorely tempted to plague bronze lobbies and regale the newbies there with the Carnifex story. "This gun? Yeah, it's great at level X. But don't bother spending money to upgrade yours, because on Tuesday, it gets nerfed," in my sweetest, most persuasive voice, the one I use to get my patients to stop smoking.

#413
Immortal Strife

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I just want to say thanks for providing the community with a heads up on the changes. By doing so greatly you have essentially reduced the number of anti-nerf/pro-nerf threads and lets us know that you truely care about the game and keeping us informed.

Modifié par Immortal Strife, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:02 .


#414
nicethugbert

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Royvios wrote...

I think people are looking at the "bioware is nerfing popular guns" thing wrong. What the ME3 MP is doing by presenting us with such a large variety of weapons is giving us an environment to play with different classes, builds, and find the niches and synergies within these. When statistics show that one of the ten, twelve, fifteen weapons we get in a weapon type is getting used far more often than the others it shows that said weapon is perhaps not balanced and too powerful.

When you equip every one of your adepts with a Carnifex with out giving any other weapon a second thought it shows that weapon's superiority to other weapons. As such the idea of finding the niche for each weapon becomes irrelevant. I'm also guilty of using the Carnifex, Harrier, Piranha, and Hurricane as go-to weapons because I know they're superior. This is something that directly conflicts with the spirit of the game.

Your build should make your weapon shine and vice-versa. The "slap a Piranha on it and anything will look good" mentality is something I see a lot. It's something that I wish I did not see so often. Bioware is doing their best to try and achieve this while still pleasing the fans. Sometimes nerfs are needed, and these types of nerfs are steps in the right direction. These weapons will still retain their same feel and usefulness with out being or feeling watered down. It'll make the gap between these and the lesser guns a bit smaller so that weapons like the Eagle don't have to make more drastic jumps down the road.

*edited for typos


Making an attractive weapon into an unattractive weapon does not make unattractive weapons more attractive.

No one is going to choose the phalanx over the carnifex or the evicerator over the piranha just because you made the carnifex and piranha suck.  No one traded in their broken worthless Krysae for an Incisor.

People will just move onto the another class/weapon combo.  Then you'll be back here complaining about whatever they are all using now.

If, it is balance that is wanted then I don't see how these propoased changes achieve it.  What weapons are people expected to use more often if the proposed changes go into effect?

#415
Arppis

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I don't mind it. I love Piranha and hate it's reload time (reload cancel helps thou, this is easy to do even on console). But, I think this might veer some people off from using Piranha, thou not me. So I'm cool with these.

And never understood what is so great about Carnifex. But I can live without knowing. :)

Modifié par Arppis, 21 septembre 2012 - 07:14 .


#416
Ser Reevo Von Bartlesby

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I still don't see the point of putting any resources whatsoever into something as miniscule as this.

#417
Poison_Berrie

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nicethugbert wrote...

Making an attractive weapon into an unattractive weapon does not make unattractive weapons more attractive.

No one is going to choose the phalanx over the carnifex or the evicerator over the piranha just because you made the carnifex and piranha suck.  No one traded in their broken worthless Krysae for an Incisor.

But the Phalanx doesn't actually need a buff, though. Nor is the eviscerator a terrible weapon for the tier it's on, I'd say the opposite.

#418
nicethugbert

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Poison_Berrie wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Making an attractive weapon into an unattractive weapon does not make unattractive weapons more attractive.

No one is going to choose the phalanx over the carnifex or the evicerator over the piranha just because you made the carnifex and piranha suck.  No one traded in their broken worthless Krysae for an Incisor.

But the Phalanx doesn't actually need a buff, though. Nor is the eviscerator a terrible weapon for the tier it's on, I'd say the opposite.


Do you see the arbitrary one sidedness your your opinion?  Everybody is using A, therefore A must be nerfed.  Nobody is using B, therefore no changes required to B.  Where is the balance in that?  That is not balance.  It's just tearing down everything ppl enjoy using.


Phalanx is even lighter than carnifex and has virtually the same DPS.  How is making the canifex heavier going ot make people switch over to the phalanx?

Modifié par nicethugbert, 21 septembre 2012 - 08:02 .


#419
greghorvath

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nicethugbert wrote...

Phalanx is even lighter than carnifex and has virtually the same DPS.  How is making the canifex heavier going ot make people switch over to the phalanx?

I don't think that's even the question. The question is, why would someone want to make people use Y over X? :blink:

Modifié par greghorvath, 21 septembre 2012 - 11:13 .


#420
Poison_Berrie

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nicethugbert wrote...
Do you see the arbitrary one sidedness your your opinion?  Everybody is using A, therefore A must be nerfed.  Nobody is using B, therefore no changes required to B.  Where is the balance in that?  That is not balance.  It's just tearing down everything ppl enjoy using.

That wasn't really the point I was making, merely your extraction.

My point is that buffing the other weapons isn't really the answer either. The examples you named (Phalanx and Eviscerator) are already good weapons especially considering they both are uncommon.
In essence these weapons shouldn't actually be unattractive (and I don't find them that way).
Nerfing the Carnifex isn't going to chance the reasons people don't actually use the other pistols, either though.

The Piranha does deserve the nerf in my opinion.

#421
Origin

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I'm not sure the point here is if the downgrade / nerf is reasonable or not or if we can live with it.
The real question is what is the point of the downgrading practice in general and why the players should accept it in the first place.

This practice should be stopped once for all.

Modifié par Aekshin, 21 septembre 2012 - 12:39 .


#422
nicethugbert

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Poison_Berrie wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...
Do you see the arbitrary one sidedness your your opinion?  Everybody is using A, therefore A must be nerfed.  Nobody is using B, therefore no changes required to B.  Where is the balance in that?  That is not balance.  It's just tearing down everything ppl enjoy using.

That wasn't really the point I was making, merely your extraction.

My point is that buffing the other weapons isn't really the answer either. The examples you named (Phalanx and Eviscerator) are already good weapons especially considering they both are uncommon.
In essence these weapons shouldn't actually be unattractive (and I don't find them that way).
Nerfing the Carnifex isn't going to chance the reasons people don't actually use the other pistols, either though.

The Piranha does deserve the nerf in my opinion.


I could say the same thing about the piranha.  What weapon will ppl use once the piranha is nerfed?  Oh, now everybody iare using xyz weapon, nerf that, ...... 

The claymore is sacrosanct.  Yet, what happens if everybody starts using the claymore?

If the claymore is unnerfable, that is sad because claymore implies less power usage.  If the claymore implies the expected balance between weight and damage then the game eventually boils down to claymore and predator and that is boring.

It is not clear what is the goal of all these weapon nerfs.  They have been going on for months now. 

#423
Poison_Berrie

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@nicethugbert:
My reasoning for the Piranha isn't so much pervelance, but it's advantagousness to all classes, with little disadvantage. It's the more viable alternative to all it's competitors on all classes irregardless
I can see (even quantify) why they would use this gun above the alternatives, whereas with the Carnifex I can't.

#424
greghorvath

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Poison_Berrie wrote...

@nicethugbert:
My reasoning for the Piranha isn't so much pervelance, but it's advantagousness to all classes, with little disadvantage. It's the more viable alternative to all it's competitors on all classes irregardless
I can see (even quantify) why they would use this gun above the alternatives, whereas with the Carnifex I can't.

The problem with the bolded part is that there is NOTHING that can be done that will not ruin the gun or not only affect the power based classes.

People argue that these intended nerfs are mild enough to be accepted. What is actually interesting in connection to this is that what is the point of these nerfs, when you have a) ultralight pistols, B) reload cancelling? These nerfs will change absolutely nothing and are therefore totally pointless. In addition to the entire concept of balancing (at least the way its done in this game) being pitiful.

#425
Chaoswind

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Eric Fagnan wrote...

Hey everyone, just so you guys aren't left in the dark, here is what we're thinking of changing to the Carnifex and Piranha for next week's balance changes.

Piranha Shotgun
- Clip size decreased from 8 to 6

Carnifex Pistol
- Encumbrance increased from [1.0-0.5] to [1.2-0.7]


both sound ok

The Carnifex is the best pistol in the game (on average stats) so making it weight more again would be the best nerf.

The clipsize reduction is mostly a hit to the classes with fire ratio increases (the ones that make most weapons godly), but I am still on the fence... a reduction of 25% to the clipsize may be a little too much without some sort of buff somewhere else.