519 réponses à ce sujet

[neteng101]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Hey everyone, just so you guys aren't left in the dark, here is what we're thinking of changing to the Carnifex and Piranha for next week's balance changes.

Piranha Shotgun
- Clip size decreased from 8 to 6

Carnifex Pistol
- Encumbrance increased from [1.0-0.5] to [1.2-0.7]

The change for the Carnifex is not good - you're hurting a group of classes dependent on light weapons that already has a limited weapon range selection further by increasing the weight.

And reduring the Piranha in this manner works for the damage dealing classes, but yet again, it hurts the group of classes that could use the Piranha as a relatively lightweight weapon choice that doesn't have all those bonuses that makes the gun really good.

The bottom line - these changes seem to be very anti-vanguard/adepts.  And both these classes aren't that well represented in games from what I've seen.  Most people play tech/damage classes now.

[RGFrog]

Let me put it another way. Nerf the Carnifex and it will be worse than it's next competitor, an uncommon Phalanx.

The DPS difference between the two is 13, THIRTEEN, points, and the Phalanx actually does more damage if you reload cancel.

Why then would you make a weapon a rare then nerf the only thing making it different from a non-rare and then revisit the same nerf yet again fully putting it out of the Rare class all together?

Again, explain your thinking.

First Carnifex nerf: March 6, 2012

Carnifex Heavy Pistol
- Encumbrance increased from [0.75-0.35] to [1.0-0.5]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Phalanx: base: 144 dps 393.2 reload canceled dps: 486
Carnifes: base: 345 dsp: 406 reload canceled dps: 458.7

Weight of the Carnifex is already DOUBLE that of the Phalanx with pretty much ZERO benefit to justify the difference.

And now you want to make it heavier...AGAIN.

Restricting all weapons above common only usable in Platinum would make far more sense.

[Eriseley]

Thanks Eric.

[pyroboy2290]

Siran wrote...

pyroboy2290 wrote...
TL;DR: while the changes may seem insignificant, they're not and they shouldn't be implemented.

But that's exactly why they want to implement them - right now, there is no reason to take a Carnifex X instead of a Phalanx X - with the balance change you're looking at at least 10% recharge rate difference, meaning - you either slap a ULM on it, use the Phalanx or live with the 10% slower cooldown (or take the racial passive bonus of several classes, making this decision even more viable) - which makes using the Carnifex over the Phalanx a real decision and not the no-brainer we currently have.

The Piranha nerf means, that you'll still be able to kill your average enemy with a single clip but its effectiveness against bosses is reduces due to the reload as you can't kill the boss with one clip. Given that it's a light shotgun it's only reasonable that it has some disadvantages (beyond the current range limit).

Rebuttals:
1. Phalanx = uncommon carnifex = rare, due to the increased difficulty of getting the weapon it kind of should be a no brainer. (although I whole-heartedly support buffing the phalanx and other pistols instead of nerfing the carnifex.)
2. Since the first nerf it hasn't been possible to kill a boss with a single piranha clip on gold+ What they've done is change it from 2-3 clips required to 4+ clips required to kill a boss.

[Siran]

Heldarion wrote...
Last time I checked (10 seconds ago), Phalanx was an uncommon and Carnifex a rare. Carnifex SHOULD be SOMEWHAT better. Why people would be forced to use uncommons over rares on Gold and above, is pretty much beyond me.

Most people by now will have the Carnifex at X, it's been in the game since launch. And the Carnifex still is better than the Phalanx, even after the nerf. Just not by such a great margin as it is now (basically eliminating the Phalanx once you have the Carnifex)

Modifié par Siran, 19 septembre 2012 - 06:21 .

[cuzIMgood]

Heldarion wrote...

Siran wrote...

pyroboy2290 wrote...
TL;DR: while the changes may seem insignificant, they're not and they shouldn't be implemented.

But that's exactly why they want to implement them - right now, there is no reason to take a Carnifex X instead of a Phalanx X - with the balance change you're looking at at least 10% recharge rate difference, meaning - you either slap a ULM on it, use the Phalanx or live with the 10% slower cooldown (or take the racial passive bonus of several classes, making this decision even more viable) - which makes using the Carnifex over the Phalanx a real decision and not the no-brainer we currently have.

The Piranha nerf means, that you'll still be able to kill your average enemy with a single clip but its effectiveness against bosses is reduces due to the reload as you can't kill the boss with one clip. Given that it's a light shotgun it's only reasonable that it has some disadvantages (beyond the current range limit).

Phalanx was an uncommon and Carnifex a rare. Carnifex SHOULD be SOMEWHAT better.

Nope.  IMO, all weapons should be an equally viable choice.  You can disagree but clearly Bioware agrees or they wouldn't be doing these kind of balance changes.

[Skullheart]

Will you edit the skin for the piranha?

I mean, the thing has a cylinder for 8 shots.

[St3v3H]

I can live with that

[Siran]

pyroboy2290 wrote...

Rebuttals:
1. Phalanx = uncommon carnifex = rare, due to the increased difficulty of getting the weapon it kind of should be a no brainer. (although I whole-heartedly support buffing the phalanx and other pistols instead of nerfing the carnifex.)
2. Since the first nerf it hasn't been possible to kill a boss with a single piranha clip on gold+ What they've done is change it from 2-3 clips required to 4+ clips required to kill a boss.

1. I've already answered in my previous post.

2. That's why they want to implement it, it's not a boss killer primarily.

[Heldarion]

cuzIMgood wrote...

Heldarion wrote...

Siran wrote...

pyroboy2290 wrote...
TL;DR: while the changes may seem insignificant, they're not and they shouldn't be implemented.

But that's exactly why they want to implement them - right now, there is no reason to take a Carnifex X instead of a Phalanx X - with the balance change you're looking at at least 10% recharge rate difference, meaning - you either slap a ULM on it, use the Phalanx or live with the 10% slower cooldown (or take the racial passive bonus of several classes, making this decision even more viable) - which makes using the Carnifex over the Phalanx a real decision and not the no-brainer we currently have.

The Piranha nerf means, that you'll still be able to kill your average enemy with a single clip but its effectiveness against bosses is reduces due to the reload as you can't kill the boss with one clip. Given that it's a light shotgun it's only reasonable that it has some disadvantages (beyond the current range limit).

Phalanx was an uncommon and Carnifex a rare. Carnifex SHOULD be SOMEWHAT better.

Nope.  IMO, all weapons should be an equally viable choice.  You can disagree but clearly Bioware agrees or they wouldn't be doing these kind of balance changes.

Shuriken should be as viable as Hurricane.

Discuss.

[pyroboy2290]

cuzIMgood wrote...

Nope.  IMO, all weapons should be an equally viable choice.  You can disagree but clearly Bioware agrees or they wouldn't be doing these kind of balance changes.

If bioware agreed with that, we wouldn't still have 29 (give or take about 5 due to personal opionions) useless weapons. If they really wanted to make all weapons equally viable they'd buff all of the $h1& weapons to the point where they became useable. (this would take a great deal more than thier usual 5-10% damage buffs.)

Modifié par pyroboy2290, 19 septembre 2012 - 06:37 .

[Siran]

Heldarion wrote...

Shuriken should be as viable as Hurricane.

Discuss.

They both fill different niches, as will the Carnifex and Phalanx after the nerf. Right now, the Carnifex makes the Phalanx obsolete, there is no niche for the Phalanx. After the nerf you'll still have the power of the Carnifex but it comes with a (slight) cost of a minimal recharge rate increase. You want 200% recharge - go with the Phalanx, use ULM or skill the race passive of several casters giving them a heavy pistol weight decrease (which right now no one does, as it's simply not needed).

Modifié par Siran, 19 septembre 2012 - 06:31 .

[Chobbly]

Whilst I'm not convinced that the Carnifex needs any adjusting, I appreciate the proactivity in previewing the change on BSN.

Many thanks Eric.

[Heldarion]

Siran wrote...

Heldarion wrote...

Shuriken should be as viable as Hurricane.

Discuss.

They both fill different niches, as will the Carnifex and Phalanx after the nerf. Right now, the Carnifex makes the Phalanx obsolete, there is no niche for the Phalanx. After the nerf you'll still have the power of the Carnifex but it comes with a (slight) cost of a minimal recharge rate increase. You want 200% recharge - go with the Phalanx, use ULM or skill the race passive of several casters giving them a heavy pistol weight decrease (which right now no one does, as it's simply not needed).

As far as I see, Shuriken fills the niche "terribad" and Hurrican, according to the people who use it, fills the niche of "awesome".

[whateverman7]

N7Kopper wrote...
We are.
We're standing our ground against a Monty Haul multiplayer.
FOR CHALLENGE!

uh huh....anyway, yall arent standing ground, yall are going along with this when this isnt right....BW making changes off popularity isnt right....they are being just like a bunch of the bsn...how a lot of the bsn plays the game based on spreadsheet info; BW is making changes based off spreadsheet info...which is wrong

[pyroboy2290]

Siran wrote...

1. I've already answered in my previous post.

2. That's why they want to implement it, it's not a boss killer primarily.

1. Well, you didn't answer it in the post I responded to and besides, if they want there to be a meaningful choice there than they should buff the phalanx out of being kinda crappy as opposed to nerfing the carnifex.

2. Not being a boss killer makes it utterly useless on platinum, and not a good choice for gold.

3. Honestly? What they really need to do is implement portions of the weapon system from ME2, you know the ones that made fast-firing, lower-damage weapons do bonus damage to shields/barriers and slower-firing high-damage weapons do more damage to armor. That would certainly make even some of the crap guns that we have now viable choices and there would be far more meanigful choices for a player to make regarding weapon selection.

Modifié par pyroboy2290, 19 septembre 2012 - 06:38 .

[whateverman7]

Siran wrote...

They both fill different niches, as will the Carnifex and Phalanx after the nerf. Right now, the Carnifex makes the Phalanx obsolete, there is no niche for the Phalanx. After the nerf you'll still have the power of the Carnifex but it comes with a (slight) cost of a minimal recharge rate increase. You want 200% recharge - go with the Phalanx, use ULM or skill the race passive of several casters giving them a heavy pistol weight decrease (which right now no one does, as it's simply not needed).

the carni does not make the phalanx obsolete....the carni is more powerful, but the phalanx is lighter, fires faster, and has more ammo in the clip, all without mods

[rtbh99]

i hope the harrier is next

[Kalas Magnus]

Not too bad.

[Siran]

Heldarion wrote...

As far as I see, Shuriken fills the niche "terribad" and Hurrican, according to the people who use it, fills the niche of "awesome".

You're derailing, you know very well, that they are not the same weapons or have the same usage scenarios...

The Hurricane has several disadvantages, for on it's not a caster weapon given its weight (and the non-funtional ULM) and stability and can very well be used as a primary weapon given its high DPS. The Shuriken - while not having the best damage-output - is a secondary weapon used as lightweight backup, for stripping shields and / or for applying ammo powers to a target

[Salzella]

hahahaha where did all the butthurt go? ...the dangers of overreacting right there people: looking pretty ****ing stupid.

[Yuanrang]

Hmmm, those are actually reasonable. At least the Piranha one. It is less damage in a round due to more reloads, but you can still dish out substantial damage upfront in line with how shotguns should function. 6 shots is enough for most classes (perhaps not for those with Rate of Fire buffs but they are weapon masters anyway).

As for the Carnifex... hrrrm, the weight thing does sound reasonable, but isn't it somewhat insignificant? I mean, I don't think the Carnifex needs a nerf in the first place (because of the lack of good pistol options for straight projectile shooters, meaning you remove Acolyte/Scorpion out of the equation), but that weight increase seems minor. o.O

[Lord Rosario]

Siran wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

Heggy wrote...

That puts the Carnifex X's weight at the same value as the Paladin X. Will the Paladin be touched as well?

If that's true then the nerf to the Carnifex is plain stilly.

Why? The Paladin is an ultra-rare - chances are that many people will have the Paladin at a lower level than the Carnifex, so the Paladin will usually still weigh more.

I'd be willing to agree to the "it's an ultra rare" arguement if the other ultra rares followed suit. I suppose it would be perfectly fair for the Harrier X to be as light as the Mattock X then because it's an ultra rare? No.. They haven't been balancing with the obtainability of the guns in mind, so why start now?

If the idea is to urge the use of different guns, changes like this would just lead everyone to using whatever the rarest gun they have instead of the one that fits best.

[121210Olivia]

If you *must* nerf the Piranha--maybe take it down by one shot (leaving seven).

Regarding the Carnifex, I'm still baffled as to why it *must* be nerfed. Asari Adepts and the like, already have a very tough time competing with the N7 characters (just take a glimpse at the actual max power damage of the original characters), this, I think, may make it even more difficult for them not to feel underwhelming and be underused. I actually wanted to use my Asari Adept today; however, after looking at the difference between her maxed power damage and the N7 Fury-- I chose the latter. Quite sad really. Hopefully, the original characters will receive buffs at the same time as these proposed nerfs.

Personally speaking, I am all for buffing other weapons--rather than nerfing them. Nerfing tends to lower the fun and enjoyment of the game, as it simply increases the time it takes to play a game.

Modifié par 121210Olivia, 19 septembre 2012 - 06:45 .

[Necrotron]

That actually seems not that bad.