519 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Rosario]

Siran wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

the carni does not make the phalanx obsolete....the carni is more powerful, but the phalanx is lighter, fires faster, and has more ammo in the clip, all without mods

Phalanx being lighter has practically no relevance at the moment as you still have 200% cooldown with the Carnifex as a caster, so why use it over the Carni? True, the Phalanx has more ammo in the clip, but the Carnifex deals more damage per shot, so the sustained DPS of the Carnifex is still higher.

As it stands, Canifex has a higher sustained DPS, Phalanx has a higher reload canceled DPS. That should already tell you how close they are in damage output. Phalanx is also an uncommon. They are generally weaker than rares [even though many rares are better than Ultra Rares, go figure]. Phalanx is already lighter than the Carnifex, so why make it as heavy as the Paladin?

[Siran]

[quote]whateverman7 wrote...



why does it not have relevance? when picking a second gun, a caster would go for the lighter one...the carni is heavier, which hurts CD more than the phalanx...[/quote]

Why would you need a second gun as caster to begin with?

[quote]also, having more bullets can help cancel out the lower damage output
(cause you shooting them more times)...plus, you can always add a mod to
help with that....picking the phalanx over the carni right now isnt as
hard as you trying to make it seem....you can go either way, it depends
on the person's play style/preference[/quote][/quote]

Again - the sustained DPS (including reload etc) of the Phalanx is still lower than the Carnifex, that won't change. And you were talking about a mod-less comparison. You can always apply mods to change shortcoming of some guns - that won't change with the nerf. Maybe you'll pick the ULM instead of the Piercing mod for the Carnifex now. That's not such a big deal, the Carnifex isn't a boss-killer anyway, as caster you have your powers for that.

[whateverman7]

Siran wrote...

No. Leveling up weapons with a bigger rarity should never make other weapons entirely obsolete, but give greater variety instead. Which is exactly what will be the case after the nerf.

The Carnifex is by no means "dead" after the proposed nerf. We're talking about a 10% recharge rate increase in most cases, not 100%. And again - there are several ways to still get 200% recharge rate: HP ULM and race passives . But now you have to make decisions and weigh pros and cons instead of just picking without thinking twice.

please stop saying that, cause it's not true....the carni makes nothing obsolete...just cause you dont choose to use it, doesnt mean it's obsolete

[chelseascum123]

Is this going to precipitate a nerf for the Paladin, too, then? Since the Carnifex now weighs the same as it?

[DeadeyeCYclops]

both ideas are idiotic at best, and all the good gun manufacturers like Jakobs, Dahl, Tediore, Maliwan, Bandit, Hyperion, all disapprove. ty buh bye


lulz seriously though you guys think like Marcus......NO REFUNDS.....

Modifié par DeadeyeCYclops78, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:07 .

[CmnDwnWrkn]

pyroboy2290 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

That's not exactly how it works.  25% smaller clip does not equate to 25% less damage per second.  It means 25% less damage per clip, which is different.  6 shots means less damage per clip, but it also takes less time to fire those 6 shots than it does to fire 8 shots.  DPS will certainly be lower with the 6-shot clip, but the decrease will be  significantly less than 25%.

I do realize that, but I didn't want my post to be a completely insurmountable wall of text. In reality the reduced clip size probably decreases the DPS and thus the combat efficiency of the piranha by closer to 15-20% (which is still quite significant.)

Fire rate is 2.5 shots per second --> 3.2s to empty 8-shot clip or 2.4s to empty 6-shot clip.  Let's assume 1.8 second reload time (about halfway between perfect reload cancel and no reload cancel).

8 shots per 5 seconds sustained for 8 shot clip = 4934.4 damage per 5 seconds = 986.88 DPS.

6 shots per 4.2 seconds sustained for 6-shot clip = 3700.8 damage per 4.2 seconds = 881.14 DPS.

(881.14 - 986.88) / 986.88 = - 10.7%

Sustained DPS for 6-shot clip is 10.7% lower than 8-shot clip.  Will be slightly higher or lower depending on ability to reload cancel.

[Haersvaelg]

I'm happy that they didn't go further in the balancing, but still feel its pretty unwarranted, especially for the Carnifex since it is hardly a top-tier weapon anymore and have been in the game untouched for as long as it has.

To me, any nerf to older weapons should only take place if something new about their use is discovered or new content comes out that somehow synergizes in a way that makes the weapon too good. Otherwise, it just feels cheap and annoying. Nerfs to newer weapons (and powers for that matter) are more acceptable because even with testing, it can be really hard to truly understand the potential of those before they are actually released to the player base.

[Siran]

Lord Rosario wrote...

As it stands, Canifex has a higher sustained DPS, Phalanx has a higher reload canceled DPS. That should already tell you how close they are in damage output. Phalanx is also an uncommon. They are generally weaker than rares [even though many rares are better than Ultra Rares, go figure]. Phalanx is already lighter than the Carnifex, so why make it as heavy as the Paladin?

Because the Phalanx being lighter has practically no relevance given the fact that as caster you normally don't need a second gun (you have powers as primary damage dealer). And according to the Multiplayer Manifest add-on the Carnifex has both, a higher sustained DPS (406 vs 393,2) and pratically the same reload-cancel DPS (485,7 vs 486,0) at level X without mods.

[edit]seems like I was using an older add-on version, after updating, the values changed quite a bit, albeit the Phalanx is barely noticably better with reload cancel which doesn't have much real-world meaning anyway, as you'd have to hit the exact timing every time.

Modifié par Siran, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:23 .

[LeandroBraz]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Hey everyone, just so you guys aren't left in the dark, here is what we're thinking of changing to the Carnifex and Piranha for next week's balance changes.

Piranha Shotgun
- Clip size decreased from 8 to 6

Carnifex Pistol
- Encumbrance increased from [1.0-0.5] to [1.2-0.7]

I knew it was encumbrance!! =D

I think it's fair. I still don't think that a nerf on the Carnifex is unecessary, she is only the most used because is a favorite, she is not that better than others, but encumbrance is fair..

Modifié par LeandroBraz, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:08 .

[whateverman7]

Siran wrote...

Why would you need a second gun as caster to begin with?

Again - the sustained DPS (including reload etc) of the Phalanx is still lower than the Carnifex, that won't change. And you were talking about a mod-less comparison. You can always apply mods to change shortcoming of some guns - that won't change with the nerf. Maybe you'll pick the ULM instead of the Piercing mod for the Carnifex now. That's not such a big deal, the Carnifex isn't a boss-killer anyway, as caster you have your powers for that.

1. cause you want to...i carry 2 guns on all my characters...i like having a secondary gun

2. yea, we were talking about mod-less comparisons....true, those things wont change, that's why the carni doesnt make the phalanx obsolete as you say....

...also, i apologize for bringing up mods....it's not part of the discussion....

[Siran]

whateverman7 wrote...

please stop saying that, cause it's not true....the carni makes nothing obsolete...just cause you dont choose to use it, doesnt mean it's obsolete

Then tell me, as a caster - why would you choose the Phalanx over the Carnifex of the same level? We've already established the Carni has higher DPS (sustained and reload canceled). You don't need a second gun as backup as a caster and the Carni has plenty of ammo anyway.

Modifié par Siran, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:10 .

[Kogia]

Great to have the communication to calm the storm, wise move, although did you not expect the upset? Or was the buzz part of the goal?

Having said that, as many others have said the nerfs, although not crippling, still aren't needed. The extra weight on the Carnifex will be exactly as others have pointed out, just now making people take the Paladin with ULM, or stick with the Phalanx, as I did anyway until I got the Carnifex to a reasonable weight. Why take the Carnifex with ULM if you have the choice of all three?

The Piranha issue to me seems to stem from it being too good for too many things, reducing the clip size sort of reduces this, but still leaves it great for the classes that made it possibly overpowered and yet doesn't really address the real issue. It's a high damage, high spread fast firing short range gun. It should be awesome against basic mooks, if you're in close - they'll get shredded getting hit repeatedly by all those pellets. From further away it loses it's effectiveness because they get hit by fewer because of the spread. Fine, there's a tradeoff. It should also be good against barriers for the same multi-pellet reasoning. What I did secretly find was too good about it was the unexpected damage it did against armor, such as Atlas. With my BatSent I found I'd damage an Atlas faster mashing my Piranha into them than my SubNet. From what the weapons 'fluff' is, this didn't make sense, it also made the weapon potentially too good an option. So, just reduce the damage it does to armoured units...

Modifié par Kogia, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:12 .

[LeandroBraz]

Canned Madness wrote...

Not sure why every one overreacted to this.

because when BSN read the word "nerf" they start to think that the weapons have only two possible states: Good and useless. They don't care how much from what was nerfed, a nerfed weapon is a useless weapon for them...

[Yajuu Omoi]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

pyroboy2290 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

That's not exactly how it works.  25% smaller clip does not equate to 25% less damage per second.  It means 25% less damage per clip, which is different.  6 shots means less damage per clip, but it also takes less time to fire those 6 shots than it does to fire 8 shots.  DPS will certainly be lower with the 6-shot clip, but the decrease will be  significantly less than 25%.

I do realize that, but I didn't want my post to be a completely insurmountable wall of text. In reality the reduced clip size probably decreases the DPS and thus the combat efficiency of the piranha by closer to 15-20% (which is still quite significant.)

Fire rate is 2.5 shots per second --> 3.2s to empty 8-shot clip or 2.4s to empty 6-shot clip.  Let's assume 1.8 second reload time (about halfway between perfect reload cancel and no reload cancel).

8 shots per 5 seconds sustained for 8 shot clip = 4934.4 damage per 5 seconds = 986.88 DPS.

6 shots per 4.2 seconds sustained for 6-shot clip = 3700.8 damage per 4.2 seconds = 881.14 DPS.

(881.14 - 986.88) / 986.88 = - 10.7%

Sustained DPS for 6-shot clip is 10.7% lower than 8-shot clip.  Will be slightly higher or lower depending on ability to reload cancel.

I've already posted the actual numbers for you people TWICE

Here
and 
Here

Modifié par Yajuu Omoi, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:12 .

[Princess Rolf]

Hopefully they nerf the Pirhanas ROF aswell as the Clipsize. That should be best.

[Yajuu Omoi]

Siran wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

please stop saying that, cause it's not true....the carni makes nothing obsolete...just cause you dont choose to use it, doesnt mean it's obsolete

Then tell me, as a caster - why would you choose the Phalanx over the Carnifex of the same level? We've already established the Carni has higher DPS (sustained and reload canceled). You don't need a second gun as backup as a caster and the Carni has plenty of ammo anyway.

I'd personally use the Eagle, or the Raptor...but thats just me.

[Maker MEDA]

Carnifex so shouldn't be messed with. It's like the stable of game balancing.

I'm not so sure I disagree with the Piranha nerf.

But I vote we get a Wraith buff, like 3 clips with faster fire rate.  Need alternate shotguns to play ably on Platinum anyway.

Modifié par Maker MEDA, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:16 .

[LeandroBraz]

Rem_NL wrote...

spewing my hatred on balance changes has become more of an priority than actually playing the damn game... makes me wonder why I still care

it make me wonder why you still think that anybody cares about your overreaction on this matter.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

pyroboy2290 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

That's not exactly how it works.  25% smaller clip does not equate to 25% less damage per second.  It means 25% less damage per clip, which is different.  6 shots means less damage per clip, but it also takes less time to fire those 6 shots than it does to fire 8 shots.  DPS will certainly be lower with the 6-shot clip, but the decrease will be  significantly less than 25%.

I do realize that, but I didn't want my post to be a completely insurmountable wall of text. In reality the reduced clip size probably decreases the DPS and thus the combat efficiency of the piranha by closer to 15-20% (which is still quite significant.)

Fire rate is 2.5 shots per second --> 3.2s to empty 8-shot clip or 2.4s to empty 6-shot clip.  Let's assume 1.8 second reload time (about halfway between perfect reload cancel and no reload cancel).

8 shots per 5 seconds sustained for 8 shot clip = 4934.4 damage per 5 seconds = 986.88 DPS.

6 shots per 4.2 seconds sustained for 6-shot clip = 3700.8 damage per 4.2 seconds = 881.14 DPS.

(881.14 - 986.88) / 986.88 = - 10.7%

Sustained DPS for 6-shot clip is 10.7% lower than 8-shot clip.  Will be slightly higher or lower depending on ability to reload cancel.

I've already posted the actual numbers for you people TWICE

Here
and 
Here

Oh no, we both created similar posts!  Hopefully I get more credit than you do for it, because my intent in posting was to steal your thunder.  I totally saw your posts first, even though I started typing before your posts were submitted.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:21 .

[Yajuu Omoi]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

pyroboy2290 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

That's not exactly how it works.  25% smaller clip does not equate to 25% less damage per second.  It means 25% less damage per clip, which is different.  6 shots means less damage per clip, but it also takes less time to fire those 6 shots than it does to fire 8 shots.  DPS will certainly be lower with the 6-shot clip, but the decrease will be  significantly less than 25%.

I do realize that, but I didn't want my post to be a completely insurmountable wall of text. In reality the reduced clip size probably decreases the DPS and thus the combat efficiency of the piranha by closer to 15-20% (which is still quite significant.)

Fire rate is 2.5 shots per second --> 3.2s to empty 8-shot clip or 2.4s to empty 6-shot clip.  Let's assume 1.8 second reload time (about halfway between perfect reload cancel and no reload cancel).

8 shots per 5 seconds sustained for 8 shot clip = 4934.4 damage per 5 seconds = 986.88 DPS.

6 shots per 4.2 seconds sustained for 6-shot clip = 3700.8 damage per 4.2 seconds = 881.14 DPS.

(881.14 - 986.88) / 986.88 = - 10.7%

Sustained DPS for 6-shot clip is 10.7% lower than 8-shot clip.  Will be slightly higher or lower depending on ability to reload cancel.

I've already posted the actual numbers for you people TWICE

Here
and 
Here

Oh no, we both created similar posts!  Hopefully I get more credit than you do for it, because my intent in posting was to steal your thunder.  I totally saw your posts first, even though I started typing before your posts were submitted.

...?
oookay?
Consider my thunder stolen?
Reguardless, the sustainded DPS only drops by 100...less than a bar on a troopers health.

[whateverman7]

Siran wrote...

[Then tell me, as a caster - why would you choose the Phalanx over the Carnifex of the same level? We've already established the Carni has higher DPS (sustained and reload canceled). You don't need a second gun as backup as a caster and the Carni has plenty of ammo anyway.

you cant tell me how to play....i like having 2 guns, so i carry 2 guns...even on caster characters...i know, the shock....

as for the guns, i have both at the same level and i choose the phalanx over the carni on certain characters...why? it's lighter, has more ammo, and does it's job as a backup gun....it also handles shields/armor/barriers just as well

[Lord Rosario]

Siran wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

please stop saying that, cause it's not true....the carni makes nothing obsolete...just cause you dont choose to use it, doesnt mean it's obsolete

Then tell me, as a caster - why would you choose the Phalanx over the Carnifex of the same level? We've already established the Carni has higher DPS (sustained and reload canceled). You don't need a second gun as backup as a caster and the Carni has plenty of ammo anyway.

Ok, why would you choose a Carnifex X over a Paladin X then after the change? They will weigh the same. No reason to use the carnifex anymore.

Also, my multiplayer manifest upgrade has different numbers from yours for both guns, so obviously one of our number sets are off. I'll check if I missed a recent update for it.

[whateverman7]

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

I'd personally use the Eagle, or the Raptor...but thats just me.

i like the eagle too, have it on a couple characters....but that's like blasphamy on here

[LeandroBraz]

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

Siran wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

please stop saying that, cause it's not true....the carni makes nothing obsolete...just cause you dont choose to use it, doesnt mean it's obsolete

Then tell me, as a caster - why would you choose the Phalanx over the Carnifex of the same level? We've already established the Carni has higher DPS (sustained and reload canceled). You don't need a second gun as backup as a caster and the Carni has plenty of ammo anyway.

I'd personally use the Eagle, or the Raptor...but thats just me.

I prefer the Phalanx, simple because I like how it shoot (more fire rate). I don't give a d*mn about which one do more damage, I play better with more fire rate. The problem with numbers is that they don't considerate the player, how he uses the weapon. If you are a caster, and you are so busy doing explosions that you don't bother about actually hiting your shots, then you gonna want to shoot more times per second, since most of your shots gonna hit the wall... when I'm playing with caster, weapon is just something that I use between one cooldown and another.

[Onpoint17]

I just want to go on record that I'm against any nerfing of weapons or powers. There is no reason to make the Carnifex heavier or the Pirannah fire less shots. Don't forget about the causual players that should outnumber the elite players who are always calling for nerfs.