740 réponses à ce sujet

[Rebel_Raven]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok,

So, you have a Claymore, a Geth Plasma Shotgun, a Graal Spike Thrower, a Disciple, a Reegar Carbine, a Piranha, a Wraith, and a Crusader. All gold plus the ultra rare and promo shotguns.

Why are you using the Piranha?

And don't give me, "Because the other shotguns suck!" That will just get you ignored.

Cheers

An interesting question, I must say!

Why am I using the Piranha?

To put it briefly, it's due to it being caster friendly, it's stopping power, and it's forgiving if I miss unlike a lot of shotguns. Few other shotguns have these qualities, but some do, and I use them.

Allow me to elaborate!
 
Claymore: Quite possibly the least forgiving shotgun. I won't use it due to it's rate of fire.

Geth Plasma Shotgun: This would be my first choice in shotguns. It's decently light, potent to use, has a variety of uses, and it's rather forgiving. Why is this not my go to shotgun? 1 reason very important to me. It doesn't punch through guardian shields.
The fact that lag can affect it, and it can be dodged is not enough to stop me from using it, but they do exist.

Graal Spike Thrower: Putting it simply, I don't use it. With lag issues, it can miss at point blank range. That level of unreliability is unacceptable.

Disciple: I tested it recently, and it's pretty much written off. It lacks stopping power, and it lacks stagger power. With 4 rounds in the clip, I feel better off using the talon. it doesn't live up to it's own lore. I don't use it.

Reegar Carbine: Another I don't use. It's abhorrent range, and the fact it's mag is depleted almost instantly makes it absurdly dangerous for my characters to use.

Piranha: As stated before, it's light weight, and has stopping power. It's range is lacking, sure, but having stopping power, the ability to punch through a guardian's shield, and it being light weight are very important to me. It's not that it's the most powerful shotgun, or whatever. So long as it protects me from baddies in it's range, I'll prolly use it.

Wraith: I don't like it. Abhorrent rate of fire, and a 2 round mag make it too unforgiving for my usually squishy character. I'm no headshot master, so it'll likely get me killed.

Crusader: Absurdly heavy, and it fires a slug? Just doesn't work out for me.

Onto the unspecefied shotguns!

Katana: I might try it eventually, but I'm not too enthused.

Scimitar: I have it at X. I like the -feel- of how it works, but I don't like that it's pretty impotent in combat. It has a nice mag capacity, an okay full auto fire, and a good rate of fire when the button is mashed.

I haven't re-tested the eviscerator. I think it's low mag supply will lead to the same problems the other shotguns that don't make it into my preferred arsenal have. They're impotent, and don't offer suitable protectioon for my squishy character.

So there you have it. The reason I use the Pirahna is that it's one of the few caster friendly shotguns that will penetrate a guardian shield, and actually kill the guardian behind it on silver and higher difficulties.

Further I NEED a shotgun I can comfortably solo atleast a brute with on silver. Even remotely! If I can't kill a boss with it on silver, what good will it do me on gold, or even platinum?

Sure, I could stack it with Shotgun amps, and shotgun enhancing gear, but if I -have- to do that just to make a weapon worthwhile, it's just too expensive to use.

Edit for latter question:

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok, so most people seem to agree the other shotguns are good.

How would you propose to bring the Piranha in line with the other shotguns so you, as players have a tough choice of which shotgun to bring to the field, without disrupting the damage economy?

I'd REALLY rather you bring the rest of the shotguns more in line with Silver, gold, and platinum difficulties.

I'll be perfectly honest, though. Lower it's DPS.

RoF, pellet count, outright damage nerf, it doesn't matter, just hit it's DPS. Changing it's weight will just take it out of the wheel house of casters who rarely use it, and do absolutely nothing to the classes, and characters that care little to nothing about it's weight, and use it far more.

 

Modifié par Rebel_Raven, 19 septembre 2012 - 10:05 .

[najzere]

Derek Hollan wrote...

najzere wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok, so most people seem to agree the other shotguns are good.

How would you propose to bring the Piranha in line with the other shotguns so you, as players have a tough choice of which shotgun to bring to the field, without disrupting the damage economy?

Increase rate of fire on other shotguns, that's the only reason I like the Piranha in the first place. If you decrease RoF for the Piranha or lower its clip size, I'll just avoid using like I already do with other shotguns. If you decreased the damage for Piranha I would still use it. No matter what you do to nerf the Piranha I won't like  it, however.

Increasing ROF of other shotguns increases DPS of each shotgun. You do that with which throws the damage economy out of whack.  You would have to decrease the damage of those shotguns to compensate.

Why should you have to decrease damage to compensate when the goal is to balance the shotguns to each other? You're okay with lowering Piranha DPS to bring it in line with other shotgun DPS, but not okay with increasing other shotgun DPS to be in line with Piranha DPS? If you're coming from the perspective that the Piranha is truly overpowered, then okay we'll just have to disagree on the meaning of "overpowered", but if your goal is simply to balance shotguns against each other, either method should suffice. See my earlier post for what I think about the idea of "damage economy" in this multiplayer.

Modifié par najzere, 19 septembre 2012 - 09:53 .

[DeadeyeCYclops]

weight, clip size (pre nerf) after nerf i wont use it anymore

[JustinSonic]

 I use the Piranha on certain classes, just as I use shotguns on other classes.

The Piranha is rapid firing, and doesn't work well with certain classes, actually. As people have done (including myself), this weapon works wonders on the Geth Infiltrator and the N7 Destroyer. Both classes have an ability that can increase the fire rate of the weapon. So, the weapon instantly becomes useful, because just holding the trigger can equal great fun in terms of gameplay.

Otherwise, I don't use the Piranha at all. In fact, I'll switch up for the Geth Plasma Shotgun on my Destroyer now and then.

With my Human Vanguard, I use the Wraith. It's perfect for dealing with any unit, especially with 'Weapon Damage Increase' from Biotic Charge. A simple Charge and shot will knock out most enemies, and with the Wraith, you're ensured 2 shots to take out a tougher opponent, or to get rid of Husks/Ground troops.

The Reegar Carbine works great with both the Vorcha and the Drell (especially the Adept). I've actually found this weapon can be useful on the Pheonix Vanguard! It's a very unique weapon that should be utilized carefully.

The Claymore, I'll use on my Krogan units. As the weapon was essentially designed FOR them, why not put it on them? It actually works great on any type of class.

Those are the shotguns I'm always using...now for the ones I don't use, and why:

The Disciple has really lost its touch since the beginning of multiplayer. Back when the game launched, this was a weapon I always saw, but now I never see. It's nice that it's lightweight, but it's become useless, so I don't really use it anymore, sadly.

The Graal Spike Thrower is just a weapon I don't like. I'm sorry to write that, but I didn't enjoy using it during the single player campaign, and I don't enjoy using it on multiplayer either. I have friends who get great use out of the weapon, so it's not entirely out there (especially with the buff).

The Crusader is great, except 2 things...first off, the blue 'dot' that's given as what you'll fire as (I don't know what this is called...an aiming mechanism/target?) is VERY small. It makes the gun just not enjoyable to use, because I really never know what exactly I'm shooting at. Second off, the weight is too much...but that's just a nitpick. Otherwise, the weapon is fine, and the range works!



Derek, if you're making this topic to wonder why the Piranha is used, I'm just writing that it's used (at least for me) on certain classes....just like any weapon should! I'm sure there are players out there who slap the weapon on anything, but I feel that every class can work with certain weapons, as explained above. 

Modifié par JustinSonic, 19 septembre 2012 - 09:54 .

[Zero132132]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok, so most people seem to agree the other shotguns are good.

How would you propose to bring the Piranha in line with the other shotguns so you, as players have a tough choice of which shotgun to bring to the field, without disrupting the damage economy?

It isn't that it's out of line. It has a high DPS, sure, but adjusting for how inaccurate it is, even with a smart choke on, it's not that great of a weapon, it's just easy to use. It's so inaccurate that aiming doesn't substantially help your damage output, so there's no improvement with skill. If you want to change that, increase the accuracy and recoil, and decrease the damage per shot a little. It'll go from being a noob cannon to something that's ridiculously difficult to use, but astoundingly rewarding.

Also, It sees more use than other shotguns because it's actually light enough to be used on classes that rely on powers a lot, but it has decent damage output. This isn't a bad thing; in terms of damage output, the power-heavy classes have been FAR outstepped by classes that have powers that just improve weapon functionality. Since it's horde mode, there's not a lot to do but kill stuff, and by and large, classes that rely strongly on weapons (soldiers, infiltrators) generally have high enough capacity that weapon choice isn't restricted to light weapons. These classes also get boosts to weapon damage in a number of ways, so their damage output is very far ahead of most adepts. There SHOULD be lighter weapons that are actually worth using. Otherwise, you'll do **** for damage with 'caster' classes, and if you choose a better gun, you'll have to know that you'd be doing much better if you'd gone with an infiltrator or soldier instead.

[The Perception]

Well, as others have noted, That we aren't trying to have all guns on equal ground.

How about a slight weight increase in the Piranha, and a weight decrease on some other shotguns combined with or without a damage increase with these said guns.

Like the Disciple, It could use a damage increase, while the claymore would be fine with a weight decrease only. The wraith can use a rof increase while dps is decreased a little. Charge up time on the gps and graal could be shortened. Doing slight changes like these wouldn't destroy or alter the damage economy would it?

[Praiosrondra]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Why are you using the Piranha?

Why do I use the Piranha?
Because it's very powerful low to mid range. And because it's fully automatic, which means that I don't have to repeatedly press the mouse button. That makes it easier to aim.

Why do I use the Piranha on many different characters?
Because other good shotguns ruin the recharge timer.

Would I still use the Piranha if it's weight was increased?
Yes, but probably only on characters where recharge speed is not that important.

Would I still use the Piranha if it's DPS was noticeably decreased?
No, I wouldn't. I would instead use other shotguns like the Claymore or the GPS on characters where recharge timer isn't important, and a SMG oder a pistol on other chars.

[Anders028]

 Piranha with smart choke gives it a decent range and damage.  I might use on a close quarters class like the Paladin or something with accuracy bonuses like the Geth classes or the Destroyer.  It needs armor piercing of some short to be really effective and that is one thing that pushes me away from using it.

After the Piranha had been out for a while I swayed away from using it because it requires just a little to much patience to kill a Phantom and I was playing unknown/unknown/Gold so you have to have something that specifically is really effective against Phantoms.

I tend to use the GPS, Claymore, or Reegar more after the intial "omg this gun is so amazing" wore off

Modifié par Anders028, 19 septembre 2012 - 09:59 .

[SilentCO1]

It's a good vanguard shotgun, we needed one that was actually good and was light. Reducing the clip won't affect that so I don't mind a clip Nerf, just not a damage Nerf.

[Kloreep]

I find it funny that the Piranha is apparently such a problem. Myself, I only use it on either classes that have an accuracy bonus of some sort (which isn't many) or on Krogans and such who can risk getting in something's face. Anything else, it misses so much that I don't find it to be a worthwhile gun - IMO the Claymore holds much broader appeal, since just about any character can do well with it once a Smart Choke is slapped on.

[voxgideon]

It sounds good - sort of like someone emptying a bag of hammers onto a tin roof.

[Ledgend1221]

 What's all this talk of a damage economy?
This is not an economy, this is game balance.

And here is J.E. Sawyer on weapon balance.

Modifié par Ledgend1221, 19 septembre 2012 - 09:58 .

[Najarati]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok, so most people seem to agree the other shotguns are good...

From what I've read so far, it seems like people think some of the other shotguns are good (Claymore, GPS, Reegar) while some of the others aren't up to snuff given their disadvantages (Crusader).

Modifié par Najarati, 19 septembre 2012 - 09:58 .

[cgj]

so that we have a choice to make

1 increase weight would be and wouldn't be a solution

-caster wouldn't use it anymore, and they won't use other shotguns = too heavy
-not so cooldown dependant would not have a choice to make

2 reducing clip size, not bad, would make it harder to use as it would put incentive on Reload canceling

3 don't touch the damage&ROF, it's what makes the gun to players apparently, just make it harder to get the damage done by giving it some more recoil and a tiny bit more spread

[cdzander]

I use different shotguns on different classes. Piranha I only use on Slayer and Shadow because I need a light weight, short range, hard hitting gun. I use it on my Destroyer as a short range backup because it's full auto and meshes well with devastator mode.

Otherwise I use the Wraith, Graal, Reegar, occasionally Claymore, Crusader or Disciple.

[Hellfire257]

It matches the playstyle of some of my characters. For example, on the Slayer, I want something that I can use right in the enemy's face and lay a lot of fire down with in a short space of time before I dart off somewhere else. The Piranha fits this bill well, also giving me a low enough cool-down to still remain efficient on the battlefield. They work well together.

[whateverman7]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Here's something to consider when tossing around balance ideas.

You can't just buff all weapons.  There is a concept known as a damage economy.  This works just like other economies.  If a company gives all their workers a raise, then they have to raise the price of the goods they are selling.  The new cost of the items means the workers all need raises to afford them which, then means the price of the goods have to be raised.  Inflation, in other words.

Similarly, if you need to keep a game challenging, you cannot just raise all the weapons because then all the enemies will require buffing.  Then we are caught in a viscous cycle of inflation again.  The trick is to keep the game challenging while ensuring all weapons have equal footing.  Common weapons for Bronze, Uncommon for Silver, and so on.

So, no...you can't just buff them all.  It's complicated and delicate.

Cheers

understandable, but bringing the popular thing down to the level of the unpopular things doesnt make the economy better either...you still have a bad economy

i'm curious: even though yall gave us all this variety, why does it seem like yall are upset at the choices we make when it comes to using said variety? why does a something(in this case guns) have to be 'balanced' cause its popular? why are yall trying to dictate what we use/how we play the game?

[oO Stryfe Oo]

I'd love the disciple if it did a little more damage or was reliable at staggering enemies. On topic, I haven't used the Piranha that much, since everyone else was using it and the range on it is beyond terrible. Wraith, Crusader, and Geth Plasma Shotgun are my go-to's. In fact, this thread brings to mind the fact that I've never used any shotgun other than these three in at least more than a month. Huh, that's so weird...

Anyway, I guess people are using the Piranha because of the insane DPS you get with the correct Geth Infiltrator Build. That's been my experience on PS3 at least; I rarely see the piranha in the hands of anyone other than Vangaurds and the Geth Infiltrator (90% GI). In fact, I believe it's more the GI that is broken. Don't get me wrong, I love the character. I'm just aware that he's been the source of more drastic nerfs.

[Maker MEDA]

I can make the Claymore sing with a power class like Human engineer. Strip shield, and then with the new buff, do headshots. GPS is always awesome on a GI. But where these weapons are still usable they are limiting. By classes by which characters to use it from. Piranha's popularity steam from it being equal to all classes. It's a simple mix up, anything works.

With these other weapons, Reegar with Vocha & flamer, Vocha's health regeneration, they require you to be specific characters to excel. Seems pretty obvious why Piranha is used the most.

I would still use Wraith on my Slayer, doing a pop shot in between biotic slashes, while equipping an Asari pistol to strip shield.  Only reason why I would not use a Talon over it is this.  But again, situational, very specific to the class mix up.  Piranha is pretty much the basic standard that anybody can go to, and designed that way.  It'll always hold a superior usage position to compare.

Smart choke also make Reegar outdated, when Piranha suddenly has long range aim to it that Reegar, still don't.  Still need Vocha health regen to keep it playable and relatively safe to use.  And I have to work it using the Reegar that I never have to with Piranha, from the safety of cover.  So many advantages Piranha has going for it.

Modifié par Maker MEDA, 19 septembre 2012 - 10:06 .

[najzere]

BlackbirdSR-71C wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Here's something to consider when tossing around balance ideas.

You can't just buff all weapons.  There is a concept known as a damage economy.  This works just like other economies.  If a company gives all their workers a raise, then they have to raise the price of the goods they are selling.  The new cost of the items means the workers all need raises to afford them which, then means the price of the goods have to be raised.  Inflation, in other words.

Similarly, if you need to keep a game challenging, you cannot just raise all the weapons because then all the enemies will require buffing.  Then we are caught in a viscous cycle of inflation again.  The trick is to keep the game challenging while ensuring all weapons have equal footing.  Common weapons for Bronze, Uncommon for Silver, and so on.

So, no...you can't just buff them all.  It's complicated and delicate.

Cheers

I don't think you get it. No one demands you do something like buffing ALL weapons by 10% in damage or something. That would indeed result in a simple decrase in difficulty.


Let me explaing: Let's say there's a weak weapon (Avenger), a well balanced weapon (Harrier) and an overpowered weapon (Piranha). I've got all three of them unlocked. However, even disregarding range I find myself using the Harrier the most. If all I'd want is to make the game less challenging for me, I'd use the Piranha. But I don't, I want the exact right ammount of challenge which for me is playing Gold or Platinum on a human Soldier with the Harrier.

And since most weapons are worse than the Harrier I'd say buff them to be on par. But I'd also be in favor of a Piranha nerf so it'd be on par as well.

See what I'm saying? We don't want no challenge at all, we want the right ammount of challenge and most weapons are so weak that they turn the game into a kiting-fest. I'm sure you agree that hosing down bullet sponges all day and kiting isn't fun.

Except balancing everything to your idea of the right amount of challenge (Harrier) ruins it for other people. Extending on your concept, keeping many disparate levels of power in different guns allows anyone to choose their challenge level every match by selecting the weapon with corresponding "power". Maybe the idea of balance should simply be to ensure that no two weapons overlap too much in power and function, so players can have that choice of challenge level.

[silencekills]

 I tried it out on my destroyer for a while. Helpful since I can't reload cancel very well with the Destroyer (darn you grenades and slow movement speed).

Otherwise, I always pack a Claymore for serious mode.

GPS for my melee Krentinel for staggering Silver Phantoms.

Evicerator for when I want a low cooldown (like Human Adept), but I plan on switching that to Wraith once I bump it up a few levels.

Crusader is a fun gun I like to put on my Human Soldier.

Reegar is very fun. Like to put it on my Dude Quarian Infiltraitor.

Grall has lag issues.

Disciple's just poopy.

[DieselL]

i am just talking about my use in platinum !

The piranha is good against boss units and can deal with two mobs if you are trained!

For its power it is to light , you can have a krogan vanguard with 200% still, but if it would be heavier it would again demonstrate how overpowered the geth infiltrator is, so its fine that every class can use it!

So i am not saying that it is more fun to play the piranha ,but it is indeed more effective and thats what you need for speed runs !

-The Claymore deals a lot of damage but even with reload cancel it cant handle two mobs like the piranha can and its DPS against a boss isn t as high as the Piranhas on a GI

-The Geth Plasma shotgun is heavier , is better against two mobs or more , but your main concern on PLATINUM is killing bosses fast, so i take the Piranha over the GPS

-the Graal i like it really , but against bosses it sucks !

-a Deciple is just lighter but i would never use it on Platinum, unless i would want to waste all my equipment, i dont know how many shots it would take for an Atlas

-the Reegar Carbine has really bad range , empties the clip to fast but has good DPS !

-The Wraith doesn t impress me against Bosses and its hard to kill two enemies with those two shots!

-I just have 3 upgrades for the Crusader and i didn t use it much , i guess with perfect aim if you are used to the recoil it might be better against multiple mobs, but again it is never as "Powerrfull"
against bosses as the Piranha s now

So on gold i use other shotguns more often than the Piranha , but I would take just a few of them into a Platinum game !

[rmccowen]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok, so most people seem to agree the other shotguns are good.

How would you propose to bring the Piranha in line with the other shotguns so you, as players have a tough choice of which shotgun to bring to the field, without disrupting the damage economy?

Someone's already mentioned this, but part of the Piranha issue is that the list of lightweight non-UR shotguns goes Eviscerator, Scimitar, Disciple, Piranha. The first two are uncommon, so I'll set them aside. But the Disciple feels really, really underpowered, and so--speaking in economic terms--there's no competition. The Piranha has a monopoly on the lightweight market.

So I'd balance the Piranha as follows.
Disciple: 
+10-15% damage. (Still not going to break the bank, but provides characters who want a light, effective shotgun with a more valid second option.)

Piranha: 
Set RoF to 120. (It's still the fastest shotgun, except the Reegar.)
Damage +10%. (With a calmer RoF, this dial can actually be turned up a little--and it will help underscore the fact that the weapon is being balanced, not nerfed.)
Recoil +20%. (Lower RoF makes it actually easier to keep on target, and we don't really want to increase its accuracy.)
Increase the reload time to match the Widow and Javelin. (This will make it slightly less attractive to simply unload your magazine on a target.)

[Credit2team]

The large targets,(primes, atlases banshees and brutes) do not require accurate weapons. these enemies are so broad that all pellets hit creating the maximum dps. If we had more mobs that could be headshot on gold and plat perhaps we'd consider using that, so honestly it comes does to raw dps on bosses. Even with reload canceling the claymore does not compare. The reagar does compare, but people use it just as much.

Also wraith needs a hug RoF buff, should fire at twice the current speed or faster.

[Stardusk]

thewalrusx wrote...

The large targets,(primes, atlases banshees and brutes) do not require accurate weapons. these enemies are so broad that all pellets hit creating the maximum dps. If we had more mobs that could be headshot on gold and plat perhaps we'd consider using that, so honestly it comes does to raw dps on bosses. Even with reload canceling the claymore does not compare. The reagar does compare, but people use it just as much.

Also wraith needs a hug RoF buff, should fire at twice the current speed or faster.

Agreed. Wraith is good but unworthy of being a UR.