740 réponses à ce sujet

[CMalk]

I used the piranha few times, but i prefer the wraith...on gold i just love the way it works with armor piercing ammo and precision mod, maybe a bit over precise weapon on closed combat but its fine at mid range.
Like people say, pinranha no need to aim due its clip size and rate of fire allowing people to fire without the proper care, so i dont care if u nerf it, i have survived krysae nerf and hey, i can live without piranha.

[cgj]

i really would like people to understand that's it's not easy to touch the weight of the piranha at this point

though it needs to change slightly, the devs realized it, since they planned on changing the clip size (and not the weight)
which , with the recoil, are the two best options atm

because if they touch ROF&Damage, the gun won't have that feeling to it that people enjoy, so they will achieve balance by killing the gun (not making it useless, or that less powerfull, just making it something that isn't the piranha anymore)

[Cole Frehlen]

I feel like the various shotguns should each have its own niche. This is how I see them, and how they should be tweaked:

Disciple: Lightweight, low powered. If it staggered more reliably, it would be great on vanguards and certain adepts. A bonus against barriers would be great too, it would make it a good niche weapon.

Graal is fine, I'm not keen on it but I've seen people use it very well. While hosting, of course.

Reegar, I like it on my Kroguard.

Claymore, great on Gold, goes nicely on my Salarian Infiltrator. Less useful on platinum, where if you miss, you're screwed.

Geth Plasma shotgun, is great as it is, but I find if I'm off-host that it won't always hit, even if I'm only a few feet away.

Wraith is an ultra-rare, but doesn't feel nearly effective enough. If it had a higher rate of fire, it would be a better choice. Piranha has 2/3s damage per shot, but triple the rate of fire and triple/quadruple the clip! Maybe a slight boost against armour in addition to a ROF increase, would make it worth taking.

[ValorOfArms777]

The people use piranha cause it's rapid fire and with various builds just eats everything up it's pretty well balanced the other shotguns are lacking atm cept the damn claymore

people use the claymore cause the reload cancel is superb outshining all shotguns cept piranha which has it's own classification of a rapid firing eater of close up foes this gun sorely outshines all shotguns but the piranha

the Wraith is downside by the fact claymore reload cancel undoes it's usefulness HIGHLY downgraded by a claymore give it soem advantages the piranha is so much quicker and more destructive even than it

Reager is fine it's again shotushined by a claymore

Geth Plasma Shotgun is fine again it's been outshined by a claymore

Graal is Fine it's anasty gun and makes the world spin in delight it's underused though due to claymores..

Crusader is normally lower level to us so it's not going to see much use...I mean who in the WORLD has a lvl X of any of the 4 promo weapons? why not give it like a more potent power to barriers/shields? this thign needs a damn scope somedays I can no scope with a Saber but I have issues no scoping with a crusader due tot he heavy kick

The deciple is godly low in damages it's not very useable damage wise and has no umph I know it's light but it's being quite litteraly mehish you could give it better damage against armor barriers and shields soemthign like that to give it more umph in the battles or jsut raise all round damages

Piranha/Claymore outshine all shotguns atm the reager is an exception as is the GPS the Graal isn't as used cause it's hard for ppl to use it now that the reload cancel on a claymore again outshines most shotguns and the piranha reloads fast and fires fast making it great

other words make the claymores reload cancel more extravagant and the other guns might be useful and raise up the other shotguns a tad... cept piranha

Modifié par ValorOfArms777, 19 septembre 2012 - 10:29 .

[RedJohn]

I hardly ever use Pirahna, most of the times I use Claymore

[Amnesiotic]

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

I'm not using the Piranha. I'm using the Wraith.

If I'm not using the Wraith, I'm using the Claymore.

So much this. I hate the Piranha.

[Tybo]

Been thinking about this a bit more, and I think that the reason for excessive use of the piranha is due to the fact that it is useful to almost every class.

On a weapons platform, it is not inherently superior to a Claymore or PPR or Harrier. With accuracy boosts, in particular, it becomes a different way of doing damage as opposed to superior.

On a caster type class, it is not inherently superior to a Wraith or Talon or Hurricane. It is slightly better against bosses, but significantly worse against mooks.

On a class somewhere in between, it is not inherently superior to a Saber or GPS or Graal or Kishock. You gain boss damage in exchange for headshots and crowd control.

On a close range class, it is not inherently superior to a Reegar. It does less to shields and kills more slowly, but is slightly lighter and does better armor damage.

But it is useful to all of these classes. So if you are looking at balancing the Piranha, the first thing that needs to be settled is what role do you want the Piranha to fill, and tweak it to better fit that role.

Modifié par tyhw, 19 septembre 2012 - 10:24 .

[Mash3d]

rmccowen wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok, so most people seem to agree the other shotguns are good.

How would you propose to bring the Piranha in line with the other shotguns so you, as players have a tough choice of which shotgun to bring to the field, without disrupting the damage economy?

Someone's already mentioned this, but part of the Piranha issue is that the list of lightweight non-UR shotguns goes Eviscerator, Scimitar, Disciple, Piranha. The first two are uncommon, so I'll set them aside. But the Disciple feels really, really underpowered, and so--speaking in economic terms--there's no competition. The Piranha has a monopoly on the lightweight market.

So I'd balance the Piranha as follows.
Disciple: 
+10-15% damage. (Still not going to break the bank, but provides characters who want a light, effective shotgun with a more valid second option.)

Piranha: 
Set RoF to 120. (It's still the fastest shotgun, except the Reegar.)
Damage +10%. (With a calmer RoF, this dial can actually be turned up a little--and it will help underscore the fact that the weapon is being balanced, not nerfed.)
Recoil +20%. (Lower RoF makes it actually easier to keep on target, and we don't really want to increase its accuracy.)
Increase the reload time to match the Widow and Javelin. (This will make it slightly less attractive to simply unload your magazine on a target.)

                                   
DEREK, BUDDY...  ^THIS GUY ^.

LISTEN TO HIM.

HE KNOW WHATS UP.

Modifié par Mash3d, 19 septembre 2012 - 10:25 .

[BlackbirdSR-71C]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Here's something to consider when tossing around balance ideas.

You can't just buff all weapons.  There is a concept known as a damage economy.  This works just like other economies.  If a company gives all their workers a raise, then they have to raise the price of the goods they are selling.  The new cost of the items means the workers all need raises to afford them which, then means the price of the goods have to be raised.  Inflation, in other words.

Similarly, if you need to keep a game challenging, you cannot just raise all the weapons because then all the enemies will require buffing.  Then we are caught in a viscous cycle of inflation again.  The trick is to keep the game challenging while ensuring all weapons have equal footing.  Common weapons for Bronze, Uncommon for Silver, and so on.

So, no...you can't just buff them all.  It's complicated and delicate.

Cheers

Derek,  this doesn't make sense!

Let's divide all weapons into two groups: The strong ones that are primarely used, and the weak ones that can't keep up with the strong ones.

Now: Only the strong ones are used on higher difficulties. You assume that buffing the weaker ones to be on par with the strong ones would make the game too easy.

The problem with this logic is that only the strong ones are used anyways on higher difficulties. Doesn't this mean the game is already too easy? Yes or no, which one is it? If yes, you need to nerf the strong ones. If no, you need to buff the weak ones. If it's just right, you still need to buff the weak ones to increase diversity!

[Delta_V2]

Wraith: don't use it because I haven't unlocked it.
Disciple: don't use it because it's pretty bad at actually killing things.
Graal: rarely used because it has problems off host.
Crusader: only have it at rank 1, and it is far too heavy to be practical on most classes. I've been having some fun with it on the Destroyer in Silver matches, but I wouldn't want to bring it into Gold.
Claymore: use it on the Human Soldier, where the ability to double-tap it with A-Rush is amazing.
GPS: used it so much I got bored with it, also, it's damage against armor leaves something to be desired.
Reegar: haven't used it much to date because of the hard limit on range. However, I finally unlocked the Kroguard, and have been having a lot of fun with the Kroguard+Reegar combo.
Piranha: only really use it on the Destroyer, where the accuracy bonuses make it effective out to mid range. I'll substitute this for the Crusader if it looks like I might have to carry a lobby.
Talon: not technically a shotgun, but whatever. This is my go-to weapon for most casters, especially the Fury and Drell Adept.

[N7 Whiskey]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Here's something to consider when tossing around balance ideas.

You can't just buff all weapons.  There is a concept known as a damage economy.  This works just like other economies.  If a company gives all their workers a raise, then they have to raise the price of the goods they are selling.  The new cost of the items means the workers all need raises to afford them which, then means the price of the goods have to be raised.  Inflation, in other words.

Similarly, if you need to keep a game challenging, you cannot just raise all the weapons because then all the enemies will require buffing.  Then we are caught in a viscous cycle of inflation again.  The trick is to keep the game challenging while ensuring all weapons have equal footing.  Common weapons for Bronze, Uncommon for Silver, and so on.

So, no...you can't just buff them all.  It's complicated and delicate.

Cheers

This is understandable, but you guys surely have to realize at this point that most of the guns in this game are simply not good enough.  If these lower DPS weapons had a niche to fill, such as a Scimitar having modifiers to shields/barriers but a penalty versus armor, it would fill a role and thus actually be useful.  Then a weapon like the Carnifex/Paladin have high modifier vs armor but penalty vs shields/barriers.  Then a Scimitar + Carnifex loadout would be fairly lightweight while giving the player a solution to any problem.  The challenge then lies in determining which weapon to and when, then switching between them as the tactical situation changes.

[Sun Tzglyph]

I use Claymore on my Male Quarian Infiltraor because although i'm a peaceful man, i enjoy seeing the head of a phantom explode in just one shot, even on gold.

[ryoldschool]

I used to use it because it was similar to a reload-cancelled Claymore, but I don't like to reload cancel, so it gives me similar performance without the reload-trick.

If you can just give me the same damage output as a reload cancelled Claymore then I'm cool with that. If, after the nerf, you give me less damage output than a reload-cancelled Claymore then I need to ask why don't you "balance" the Claymore as well.....

[steverw1975]

OneTrueShot wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok, so most people seem to agree the other shotguns are good.

How would you propose to bring the Piranha in line with the other shotguns so you, as players have a tough choice of which shotgun to bring to the field, without disrupting the damage economy?

]

Weight increase and a minor RoF nerf. We're not talking Krysae RoF nerf, because that was just fudging rediculous. Talk about shafting something up the back end.

Or, decrease the weight of some other shotguns. I use the Piranha on my Shadow because it can deal some quick damage at a reasonable weight.

Look at it this way, everyone was complaining about Shadows spamming ES. When I focused my Shadow build more on ES, I equipped it with the hurrican and one of a few pistols, both with ULM. When I switched to a more SS friendly build (still kept ES for crowd control and quick shield removal), I switched to the Piranha because when SS doesn't kill outright it can leave you quite close to something that can kill you rather quickly. The Piranha helps me deal with that threat, and it does so at a weight that doesn't leave me waiting forever to be able to use my powers again. So, now I switched my Shadow's focus to avoid being "that guy" in the game that messed up other peoples' aims, and Bioware wants to mess up the loadout I use to make my new strategy more successful. Here's a thought: if Bioware wants me to use a greater selection of shotguns, make the other shotguns more usable for my shadow.

P.S. You're missing one very important point Bioware. It's not always a question of choosing between various weapons in the same class. If you nerf the Piranha the way you nerfed the Krysae, I will not be switching to any of your other shotguns. They simply don't fit the bill for my character's needs. I will most likely switch to the hurricane and a powerful pistol, then equip both with ULM. I need quick bursts of weapon damage at a reasonable weight.

[Maker MEDA]

Asebstos wrote...

Maker MEDA wrote...
It's a stagger weapon, (Disciple), that does no damage, but it doesn't fire rapidly, it has low clip size, if I wanted a shot gun that doesn't deal damage but effectively stagger most mooks, I still wouldn't turn to this weapon. It doesn't do its job at the most basic level. It's selling the player short.

Its also a stagger weapon that fails to stagger reliably. IIRC all of the pellets need to hit for it to stagger.

True that, the Disciple is one of the most forgotten and unloved shotgun out there.

Modifié par Maker MEDA, 19 septembre 2012 - 10:32 .

[Pedactor]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok, so most people seem to agree the other shotguns are good.

How would you propose to bring the Piranha in line with the other shotguns so you, as players have a tough choice of which shotgun to bring to the field, without disrupting the damage economy?

Lower RoF, Elongate reload time, increase spread further.

Counter the exact buffs of Devastator mode and Hunter Mode.

You will see rep drop drastically.

More importantly though:

If you want other guns to get higher representation, then the Wraith is where you start.  Increase the clip to 3, increase the rate of fire.

Graal and GPS need to be hitscan.  Simply put, you will have to invent tech for them to function properly when not hosting over UDP.

The Disciple needs a 30-40% damage buff and a much more reliable stagger.

The Crusader needs a weight nerf and recoil nerf.

Claymore is fine, but rep will always be capped into its niche.

A "diet Claymore" is something the Raider could function as, splitting the damage across two shots.

Either way, any nerf to the Piranha is going to yield a major increase in Talon representation, provided people have one, which is honestly with ULM and multiplier against shields, what alot of these people should be pushed towards.

Another shotgun or pistol/shotgun that's a UC or Rare to help those without the UR Talon isn't a terrible idea with a shield multiplier.  Would play well on Shadows and Vanguards.

Modifié par Pedactor, 19 septembre 2012 - 10:32 .

[Amnesiotic]

rmccowen wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok, so most people seem to agree the other shotguns are good.

How would you propose to bring the Piranha in line with the other shotguns so you, as players have a tough choice of which shotgun to bring to the field, without disrupting the damage economy?

Someone's already mentioned this, but part of the Piranha issue is that the list of lightweight non-UR shotguns goes Eviscerator, Scimitar, Disciple, Piranha. The first two are uncommon, so I'll set them aside. But the Disciple feels really, really underpowered, and so--speaking in economic terms--there's no competition. The Piranha has a monopoly on the lightweight market.

Wham... we have a winner. Instead of simply nerfing the Piranha, why not give it some competition in the lightweight shotgun category? I mean, the Disciple sucks ass right now, boost it up and give people a reason to consider it over the Piranha.

Modifié par Amnesiotic, 19 septembre 2012 - 10:30 .

[JustinSonic]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok, so most people seem to agree the other shotguns are good.

How would you propose to bring the Piranha in line with the other shotguns so you, as players have a tough choice of which shotgun to bring to the field, without disrupting the damage economy?

Nothing, it's fine as is.

Buff the Disciple, and the Wraith, and the problem will be solved.

I know you guys play with numbers, and have to figure how things work...but this gun really is fine as it is. The first buff you gave to it I was perfectly fine with...but this is just crazy!

[axis_hunter5]

Claymore is really heavy, and not all that useful when compared to high damage shotguns like the plasma shotgun which has more range and a larger clip. The graal has projectile delay which makes it harder to hit many targets, so  its easy to waste shots. Disciple seems to put out very little damage to me, I dont know if it's range is deceptively short or if its just not very powerful, pretty useful if you have a lightweight character though. Reegar has fixed rangewhich makes its use limited, meaning most classes would need to carry a longer range gun to be effective. Crusader does too little dmage relative to its weight, especially when compared to the plasma shotgun or the graal ( and the slug makes it hard to use at mid-close range unlike the graal/plasma).

The wraith and plasma shotgun are the only two in this list besides the pirahna that I like and think can be equally as effective, albeit in different fashions. The wraith and piranha both have decent range (for a shotgun) and can put out a lot of damage. The plasma shotgun can put out a lot of damage of course, handle longer ranges, just at a higher weight of course.

[Sihmm]

I really like the Claymore.  I like it because it's fun.  It's not the best gun in the game but it is obviously pretty good on certain classes, and it's both good enough and challenging enough that I can enjoy the fun factor and still do well.  I wouldn't want the other shotguns made more like the Claymore, or the Claymore made less like the Claymore.  I really like the Claymore specifically and it'll probably always be my most-used shotgun.  The other shotguns are good enough that I use them fairly regularly too - or at least, I would if I could reliably get shotgun rail amps to use with them (which is a whole other complaint).  If someone was to balance the game around the fact that I really like the Claymore, the Claymore would end up a useless piece of scrap metal because I love it enough to keep using it even if it's bad.  (See also my love affair with the Javelin.)

The game has enough weapons that are distinct enough that we can specifically enjoy the precise and unique convergance of characteristics in one gun without it necessarily being "the best gun", so it's quite possible that a gun will be particularly fun (and in the case of the Piranha, new) and effective enough that lots of people will particularly enjoy using it.  The Piranha is a fun gun and it has definite advantages and challenges (most notably the range issue and having to be exposed to fire while shooting), but on most classes it's just not flexible enough for me to consider it.  (Also, shotgun rail amps.)


However having said that... the Piranha is also a light weapon which puts it in consideration for classes seeking low cooldowns.  It's sort of similar to the Scimitar but it so far outclasses the Scimitar's DPS that it's not really a choice.  No problem, the Scimmy is uncommon - but what about the Disciple, which is rare and light and somewhat different mechanically from the Piranha/Scimitar, but also has far poorer DPS?  The GPS/Graal used to be an interesting choice for casters because it'd give them good damage and stagger with the cost of increased cooldowns.  Now the Piranha gives you massive CQC damage with great cooldowns, so you're choosing between cooldowns and range/control ... and just look at how many people gravitate towards pure damage classes and specs in your average MMO  

Added to that is the fact that its damage is so high it's desirable for weapon specialist classes like the GI and destroyer that can bypass its main weakness - the terrible accuracy/range.  And added to that is the fact that most of the maps in this game have layouts which mean using a CQC-only weapon isn't much of an issue.  (In fact the combination of screen shake ruining long range accuracy and open areas generally being deathtraps to players because of enemies' high numbers, high damage and high accuracy means that CQC weapons are by far the most desirable.  Not to mention the most popular maps - Glacier and White - are almost exclusively CQC.)


There are a section of players in any game who'll always play what they perceive as "the best" setup, which in ME3 usually means the highest theoretical DPS and equates to people running around with Piranha GIs.  When the weapon at the crest of the metagame is both a lot of fun and very useful to a number of classes, that means it's going to get used a lot.

Which comes back to balancing.  My personal opinion is twofold: first, that the Disciple and Scimitar in particular need damage boosts.  Like it or not the game has revolved around the highest damage weapons for a long time to the extent that a whole new difficulty has been added to cater for that, so guns that have been left behind by the metagame need to be buffed.  There are many guns in the game that could be buffed extensively without getting anywhere near "best" status or gaining enough momentum to be FotMs.  And second if - and only if - other weapons are brought up a bit, the Piranha would probably make sense to be a little bit heavier - reducing its damage any further would, IMO, spoil a lot of what makes the gun fun, but perhaps a little tiny bit of an ROF tweak wouldn't be amiss either.

Either way I think the accuracy bonuses given to the GI and Destroyer need to be reduced.  (The Turian Soldier is probably fine.)  They're already extremely high DPS classes and the extra accuracy they give the Piranha probably tips it from being a good weapon to a too-good weapon.


TLDR: guns will get used because they're fun, and some guns are just going to be more fun to more people than others.  The trick is to figure out what makes the Piranha fun and preserve that while reducing its relative attractiveness to people who only choose it because of its high theoretical DPS.

Modifié par Sihmm, 19 septembre 2012 - 10:34 .

[Grunt_Platform]

Actually, I wouldn't mind if guns like the Wraith and the Eviscerator did a bit less damage per shot in exchange for a better rate of fire. That, or improving the value of their shots slightly (Eviscerator needs this more than the Wraith, which is already a great gun).

The Scimitar.. it's just lagging in damage output, even at its current rate of fire.

[Kasrkin]

• Claymore - I'm a terrible shot, therefor the single round chamber weapons of any stripe suit me poorly;
• Geth Plasma Shotgun - I find the projectile travel time problematic with my connection;
• Graal Spike Thrower - As above, I don't find it reliable;
• Disciple - I apologize, but this weapon (compared to the Piranha) *is* terrible;../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png
• Reegar Carbine - I have more stand off distance on my GE or Demolisher with the Piranha;
• Wraith - It is a nice shotgun, but again, clip size;
• Crusader - I *do* use this weapon, particularly on my Demolisher or BSol.

 Why are you using the Piranha?

The Piranha performs for me.  It's an area weapon, that can be deadly in the right hands. 
I like the feel.  If it was made semi-auto, it would still be as good.
I am aware that it can be made to have great accuracy, but that goes against why *I* use it (terrible at aiming - spray and pray.)
Before the Piranha I used the Eviscerator, which is STILL a solid weapon.

There you go, Derek.  I hope this helps at least a little.

[oO Stryfe Oo]

To make it on par with the other shotguns, you could drastically reduce the spare ammo capacity. That seems fair to me, and I'm sure many would agree. Kinda makes sense for something so powerful to have ammo issues.

[CMalk]

I dont know the numbers, but someone actually can tell me if disciple on 4 shots can do the same than wraith in 2 or claymore in 1?

[Maker MEDA]

Personally I'm so used to Piranha as is, at 8 shot per clip I hate to see it change, just because I don't want to readjust to the new it.

But it's probably true that GPS and Graal still can't keep up with a current stat 8 shot clip Piranha. When the team go down, and you find yourself soloing it out or duo, good luck surviving with just 6 shots.  They keep trimming our weapons where Platinum offer no margins to speak of, and we need and do fight for every inch we've got.

Graal and GPS are Gold era from launch weapons, can't bygone be bygone?  Just say goodbye to them and move on.  They got their healthy buff, but still not good enough for the standard at Plat.  And now they're trimming our go to gun to try and even things out?

It's 4 level of difficulty no body can balance out everything throughout.  The game is on a short end at damage economy for Platinum anyway.  otherwise you won't see Firebase White farming only public matches, all the time.  It's gonna be a drag as sensible though it might seem.  This wil lead to some mission failures for a lot of people.

Modifié par Maker MEDA, 19 septembre 2012 - 10:41 .