740 réponses à ce sujet

[TheGreatDayne]

I can't aim for crap, so I actually don't use the Piranha... And the range sucks for my playstyle! Which is spray and pray... and hide... and runaway until you get behind them and give them a kick in the rear...

[Deathshroud09]

blaze55555 wrote...

My theory: Because its DPS is 1500+

77.1 damage per projectile x 8 projectiles per shot x 2.5 shots per second = 1542 damage per second. Slap on the Shredder mod and Choke mod and it's pretty darn good. If I were to balance it, I kinda like how it has the highest theoretical base DPS of any weapon; I love the ideas of making it even more wildly inaccurate.

So the GI, Destroyer, and TS can all just negate that factor compared to every other class.....just as they do now?

[Thucar]

For me, the Piranha is the shotty of choice purely because of its automatic fire. My reload cancelling skills are iffy so I just get more damage done with the Piranha.

[Ciam]

lightweight, autofire, good dps, need more?

[AwesomeBabyLion]

I use weapons based on there theme and which character they "fit" best lore- or thematics wise. Graal would go with a Krogan. Reegar goes with the Quarian. Katana goes with the standard humans and N7 Destroyer is the only one who gets to use a Piranha on my team =D

I don't really care about what weapon is best for this and that as I can easily beat the game regardless of the weapon in use.

[TommyNg]

The role of shotgun should be inaccurate and huge damage in short range , so Piranha is typical.

Other shotgun like claymore ,GPS can be use in middle to long range, thats accurate which is actually not the role of shotgun, but of course it is very funny to use different things.

[Talhydras]

TL; DR: IT'S ALL ABOUT THE DPS. The game is built around deleting high health pools in a big hurry. Underused guns tend to have extremely low DPS. Overused guns tend to have either extremely high or convenient and easily-achieved high DPS. This is literally the entire scope of the Piranha problem. It has crazy high damage output in a game about achieving crazy high damage output and has no drawbacks preventing it from being used on literally every class build imaginable. The reason it's being overused is that it is purpose built to defeat the hardest enemies in the game.

Reegar - Use it with the vorcha for crossing the streams, not much else. Pretty turned off by the visual effects and the hard range cap.

Geth Shotgun - the original ZOMG WTF weapon. A shotgun that hits super hard and has homing and long range. I don't really have a rational reason to not use it anymore other than "I found it too powerful", especially on the geth. Crazy, crazy weapon. Since its mechanics are similar to the Graal, if I need a good shotgun I tend to plump for the other gold-tier charging shotgun instead because it feels less like cheating.

Graal Shotgun - the original perfect-balance weapon. Heavy, but not too heavy. Good damage, but with some idiosyncrasies that made it reward careful use. A favorite on the Krogan and my soldiers. Mostly outclassed by me having access to automatics - Harrier and Hurricane are the most fun for me period - but this is an old standby.

Disciple: This gun was obsolete the moment it entered the game, and that's the sad truth. Offers AR-levels of damage with slightly better accuracy, but that's it. It's a shame, I rather like the asari gun aesthetic and nominally the idea of a knockdown gun is great, but the acolyte seems to do its job FAR better with its AOE stagger + huge shield damage.

Claymore: My main objections are aesthetic. I've always found it appallingly ugly in general, and one of the sorest of thumbs sticking out of the ME armory. Why did we get rid of the main shotgun model in ME1 for this again? When I get over my silly aesthetic problems, however, this is one of my more used shotguns. It's everything a shotgun should be taken to extremes, and this game demands extreme performance: huge single-shot damage maximizing time in cover and pain to the enemy, as well as headshots. I wouldn't shed a single tear to see its art gone for good, but its mechanics are solid.

Crusader: This thing plays like a scopeless, improved Paladin pistol - with one caveat. It weighs an utterly inexcusable amount. Seriously. This thing brings nothing to the table that cannot be achieved better: GPS and Graal can score higher long-range damage with their charge shots. You could start by sawing 0.75 off the weight, minimum, and we might start seeing this come around, but then it gets into competition with the Wraith for being a good low weight flexible gun.

Wraith: I've heard tell of Wraith users achieving excellent accuracy with a choke. Apart from that, this gun doesn't bring much to the table. I have a friend who used it for its ability to squeak a little extra damage in between BB casts with his BatSo, and I've used it a handful of times. The Wraith's achilles heel is that it doesn't have crazy amounts of DPS - which people could be getting if they used a Reegar in its place for not much more weight. I've heard people suggest experimenting with a higher ROF and a bigger clip to give it more of a in-game ROF lead on a reload-canceled Claymore. Sure, that's cool I guess.

And now, the Piranha.

This gun does the highest damage IN THE GAME. So, naturally, we'd expect it to have a massive drawback or asterisk next to the goofy-high, "makes powers pointless" amounts of damage. That drawback being: It's almost weightless and any class can use it.

Wait, that isn't a drawback. That's the feature advertised as justifying the extremely underwhelming damage of the Disciple and the Wraith. The fake drawback - that it's inaccurate - is fixed by adding a common mod. It can be negated utterly by combining the Smart Choke with a handful of very powerful classes, giving you access to weightless super-DPS. How is this mysterious? Why does anyone have to ask why this gun is overused, at all? Want to punch like you're a reload-canceling infiltrator on your engineer? Just equip a Piranha. Want to breeze through Gold? Equip a Piranha with EB/SC + AP rounds II to a N7 Destroyer. In a game about killing big guys, the gun that kills big guys the fastest tends to get used the most.

Reality time: The highest base-DPS gun in the game should probably not be one of the lightest in its weapon category. Similarly, the highest base-DPS gun in the game should probably have a drawback that can't be compensated for with a common mod that everyone has. Take, for example, the Harrier. I love it, I personally overuse it - but it has an achilles heel. It has very low max ammunition, and there's no easily acquired mod to fix that. Not everyone has the +ammo gear, and taking it means I can't use the warfighter or grenade gear instead, making the Harrier present very real tradeoffs.

So... if the Piranha is going to be a caster shotgun, make it a little heavier than post-buff Disciple, make it hit a bit harder than post-buff Disciple but give the Disciple a vs. shields bonus or something. If the Piranha is going to be the ultra DPS gun... so be it, but it needs a tangible drawback that can't be immediately addressed. A vs-shields penalty, a spin-up time, something that moves it from "master of all trades" to "specialist". And if it does get to be the ultra DPS gun... give people a reason to pick the lower-DPS, heavier guns.

[darkpassenger2342]

i dont use it because id rather not be the 4th person on my 4 person team using it.

[the slynx]

Derek Hollan wrote...

...
Why are you using the Piranha?

Even small amounts of lag or latency regularly eat shots from the Geth Plasma Shotgun and Graal. The Disciple's damage is underwhelming and it doesn't seem to induce stagger as often as the description suggests. Several of the other guns you've mentioned weigh a lot, which makes them poor choices on power-using classes.

People do use the Reegar and Claymore in matches I've played. The Reegar's a bit more specific in its applicability.

In general, the Piranha is a fun gun to use that feels like an actual combat shotgun - the same way the Carnifex is a fun pistol to use. These weapons aren't popular because they're overpowered. They're popular because they're good, multi-purpose weapons that are enjoyable. With a few exceptions, the other options available in the class are niche weapons, not powerful enough or are ultra-rares that take a long time to unlock.

I'm not sure why the developers interpret this as a sign that they should scale back the efficacy of guns people enjoy. It's like complaining that your players are having too much fun.

[SavagelyEpic]

Because it's an awesome automatic assault shotgun?

...while I'm on that note, BW. Mass Effect is supposed to be centuries in the future, and yet the single automatic shotgun and all the burst fire weapons in ME3 are vastly inferior to modern day weapons.

Shotgun example: The Striker, the AA-12.

Burst-fire examples: The 60 (!) year old M16 family. What BW seems to not understand about burst fire weapons is that they are designed to fire off all rounds in the burst as fast as the weapon can possibly manage - Anything else, and it defeats the entire purpose of burst fire. (to place multiple rounds in as accurate a grouping as possible) Instead, any given one of the burst fire weapons in this game, EVEN while under the effects of Marksman, still fire their bursts slower than decades old real-world weapons.

[JaimasOfRaxis]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Here's something to consider when tossing around balance ideas.

You can't just buff all weapons.  There is a concept known as a damage economy.  This works just like other economies.  If a company gives all their workers a raise, then they have to raise the price of the goods they are selling.  The new cost of the items means the workers all need raises to afford them which, then means the price of the goods have to be raised.  Inflation, in other words.

Similarly, if you need to keep a game challenging, you cannot just raise all the weapons because then all the enemies will require buffing.  Then we are caught in a viscous cycle of inflation again.  The trick is to keep the game challenging while ensuring all weapons have equal footing.  Common weapons for Bronze, Uncommon for Silver, and so on.

So, no...you can't just buff them all.  It's complicated and delicate.

Cheers

This would be accurate except for logical fallacies:

1. Weapons do not scale. To repeat, they DO NOT SCALE.
2. Neither do powers. Biotic Explosions/Tech Bursts do, but that's apples and potatoes right now.
3. Enemies, however, *do* scale. They get markedly tougher, hit harder, and fight smarter and more efficiently, dodge more, etc.
4. Your argument is that Rares are viable for Gold, uncommons for silver, and ultra-rares for Platinum.

The key of what I'm about to discuss is here: By that which is discussed in numbers 1-3, the argument that if you buff the other guns, you have to buff the enemies is illogical and irrational. Players use the so-called "overused" guns because the alternatives are inefficient or just plain bad. Players aren't using the Carnifex, for example, because it's overpowered; they use it because most of the other pistols are either (A) Ultra-Rare, or ( A niche weapon (Scorpion, Acolyte), or © Garbage.

Let's see some of the "Gold Viable" weapons for a moment:
Geth Pulse Rifle. A weapon that does about as much damage as harsh language.
Widow. Irrelevant due to shield gate and lack of boss headshot modifiers, even now.
Get Plasma SMG. A water pistol.
Revenant. Inaccurate and almost impossible to use outside of Turians and the N7 Destroyer, resulting in it being a generally poor weapon.
Striker: A support weapon largely unusuable save for a few classes.
Falcon. A gun that was nerfed into oblivion and only recently was restored to usability.
Disciple. "This gun sucks" just rolls off the tongue.
Arc Pistol. Hope to Christ you have a turbo controller....
Krysae Sniper Rifle. Was broken at launch, and instead of the correct way of fixing it (remove proxy fuse, cut splash radius, make it explode on contact with enemies only), it was nerfed into oblivion and is now useless.
Argus. Hey, it's a "Powerful" rifle which is out-damaged by the Phaeston and handles like the Incisor.

The argument that "economy of damage" needs to be the basis for weapon balance is fine, but the handling of weapons in this game for its entire life-cycle has shown that to be not the case. In short, your own balance decisions prove that all-too-clearly. That's not even considering that close to 95% of the community does not have any URs anywhere near maxed, or that there is an inordinate number of garbage Ultra-rares, too (E.G. the Typhoon).

Putting it differently, the problem is:
1. Your argument is that you cannot buff the gun base to proper standards, because of damage economy and that will somehow necessitate buffing enemies.
2. This argument is undermined by the fact that the overpowering majority of weapons in the game are non-starters for gold and platinum. This includes roughly half of the rares, and a third of the ultra-rares, in case my point is not made.
3. It is undermined further by the fact that you've already buffed enemies on numerous occasions for not being lethal enough, without corresponding buffs to weapon utility. That, by your own economic-esque examples, should have resulted in corresponding buffs in other areas, but barring an Ultra-Rare fix here and there, that has not materialized. Instead we've gotten incremental changes that don't really improve anything (see: GPR buff) or fixes for issues that whilst nice, don't address the crux of the problem (Shield Gate). These are not making their associated weapons suck any less
4.  The argument that making guns not-garbage will result in them dominating the metagame is not based in fact, considering that - shockingly - certain guns are already dominating part of the metagame vis-a-vis inability to balance them correctly.
5. The argument in #4 is further undermined by the fact that the overpowering majority of the community does not possess more than a few ultra-rares, ergo meaning by your own example, they shouldn't be able to do Platinum.
6. It also ignores how hard gear is to get.
7. And classes, for that matter.

In conclusion, I'm sorry, but I disagree and your opinion does not hold up to subjective analysis.
 

[Dr. Doctor]

My usual go-to shotgun is the Eviscerator with the Barrel and Shredder mods. It does roughly 50% of the base DPS of the Claymore X for 1/4 of the weight.

-Graal and GPS both require charged shots. They're better suited for taking out one heavy target rather than a room full of mooks.

- Claymore deals the second-highest DPS in the game but it's heavy and it's single shot makes it better suited to taking down one target at a time.

-Reegar Carbine deals 1100 base DPS, deals tons of damage against shields/barriers and with the shredder mod it'll tear through armor. The problem is that it's really short-ranged and chews through ammo quickly.

-Wraith is lightweight and deals 1022.4 base DPS at level X . It's biggest problem is that it's rate of fire can make things a little difficult if you miss the first shot.

-Disciple is light and it has a stagger effect but it's damage output negates it's upsides.

-Crusader is highly accurate and has built-in armor penetration but it's heavy and is really more suited for medium to long range combat. It's pretty much the Anti-Piranha.

The Piranha offers relatively high damage output, minimal weight and recoil, and a high rate of fire. It's wide pellet spread makes it useful for taking out multiple enemies and it's not too bad at longer ranges. It reminds me a lot of the ME2 era Scimitar.

If you really wanted to remove some of it's potency I'd suggest either increasing it's pellet spread at medium to long range (making it a really close quarters weapon) or decreasing it's ammo capacity (still does a lot of damage but you'll be running to the ammo box more often) both changes can be dealt with by using Gear or Weapons Mods to increase accuracy and ammo count but it takes up a slot that could be used for something else.

[ZiRK]

Im using the Claymore/Reegar and Wraith aswell as the pirahna.

Sorry didnt realize ME3 is the nest big comp gaming title on the MLG scene - NO FUN ALLOWED.

[Tr0uble96]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok,

So, you have a Claymore, a Geth Plasma Shotgun, a Graal Spike Thrower, a Disciple, a Reegar Carbine, a Piranha, a Wraith, and a Crusader. All gold plus the ultra rare and promo shotguns.

Why are you using the Piranha?

And don't give me, "Because the other shotguns suck!" That will just get you ignored.

Cheers

Graal + GPS = host issues
Claymore = BAMF 

Disciple = doesn't stagger, very low damage

Reegar = BAMF 

Crusader = will never touch this until its weight gets fixed, inexcusible to be honest...

Wraith = need +1 in the magazine and slightly higher ROF. Even with Geth it seems to take all day to get a 2nd shot off 

[Finchtastic]

najzere wrote...

For me it's rate of fire and clip size. If I am not going to be close quarters I'll go with the GPS.

This!

[mgc1971]

Why am I using the Piranha?

Easy:because it's a good and reliable weapon,Same reason I use the Indra whenever I choose a Sniper Rifle, the Talon when I want a pistol or the Harrier when I need an AR

The real question here is :why so many players never use other weapons? Because they are not well designed and need tweaks in order to work as they are supposed to.So why dont you guys work on improving those weapons instead of nerfing the ones that actually work?

[Ravenmyste]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok,

So, you have a Claymore, a Geth Plasma Shotgun, a Graal Spike Thrower, a Disciple, a Reegar Carbine, a Piranha, a Wraith, and a Crusader. All gold plus the ultra rare and promo shotguns.

Why are you using the Piranha?

And don't give me, "Because the other shotguns suck!" That will just get you ignored.

Cheers

i am using my crusaderIII has more shots does better damage and has better accuracy and with the right modes can be used as a shotgun sniper with how good the damage and accuracy is on it as it gets higher up in the ranks this is for my shadow and my krogan battle master, sure i have the other guns claymore{ no piranha} thats at x but that's one shot wheN i can have 4 that almost the same power when using amp shot gun gear card and consumable amp gear to make the damage whole lot more fun

Modifié par Ravenmyste, 20 septembre 2012 - 06:09 .

[ZoliCs]

Crusader: heavy as hell
Claymore: its good, but im not comfortable with the 1 shot
GPS and Graal: bugs TC
Reegar: its not my style
Piranha: light has 8 shot and huge dps (i do want some variety from Piranha, but hoped for other shotgun buffs)

[Ravenmyste]

ZoliCs wrote...

Crusader: heavy as hell
Claymore: its good, but im not comfortable with the 1 shot
GPS and Graal: bugs TC
Reegar: its not my style
Piranha: light has 8 shot and huge dps (i do want some variety from Piranha, but hoped for other shotgun buffs)

Gets lighter when you rank  that crusader up

[MikeSlackenerny]

The Piranha is light and has the right attributes for true CQB. The Wraith for example has too low rate of fire. The Claymore on console has a similar problem where reload cancelling is much more difficult to do. The Geth Plasma shotgun needs charging and also has a rather low rate of fire (although not too bad) and also suffers from lag issue if off-host. Reegar has a low clip capactiy. I use the GPS on the Geth Infiltrator but when I play other characters that play an up close and personal style the Piranha is very good because you can move around up-close freely with the enemies in front of you while firing continuously. I think maybe the biggest problems with some of the other shotguns are some of them are just too weak to knock enemies down when you're up-close and the other just suffer from the rate of fire being a little too low.

[.458]

I don't use piranha, but I can see why people would use it. If I were a shotgun person, the choice to make some of them workable requires reload cancel. This isn't everyone's thing. Some weapons just do not allow sustained combat long enough on gold+. Piranha allows a good weapon that stays in the fight...and it weighs a lot less than a claymore if I recall correctly. One solution to more advanced weapons not being used: Cut all reload times in half, then remove reload cancel. Give people those same times as reload cancel with no intervening button. A LOT more weapons would be used.

[Astartes Marine]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok,

So, you have a Claymore, a Geth Plasma Shotgun, a Graal Spike Thrower, a Disciple, a Reegar Carbine, a Piranha, a Wraith, and a Crusader. All gold plus the ultra rare and promo shotguns.

Why are you using the Piranha?

And don't give me, "Because the other shotguns suck!" That will just get you ignored.

Cheers

The Piranha is a reasonably light, reasonably powerful shotgun with low accuracy (to be expected from a scatter gun), and low range (also to be expected).  It's all around solid and reliable.

Plus it's a human designed weapon, automatically I'm biased towards it.  

As to the other shotguns...
The Claymore is the mother of all ME-related shotguns.  I love it, and I love that it's not getting "rebalanced", it is indeed fine as it is.
The GPS is a tad too powerful methinks, being able to land ridiculously long range shots AND still be rather powerful per shot, not to mention the shots' slight homing ability.
Graal is not for me as I want my shotguns to be the spreadfire monsters up close, if I wanted a sniper I'd use a sniper.
Same for the Crusader.
Disciple is light, which is nice for Casters, really nice, but it's stopping power leaves something to be desired for other classes.
The Wraith...is an interesting one.  I do like it, but I don't have it at a high level so I tend to overlook it alot.
And the Reegar...pfft.  Out of ammo incredibly fast, better results with the Wraith/Claymore/Piranha.

[N7 Shadow 90]

I prefer the Crusader to the Piranha, to be honest.

[Beeno4Life]

I don't. And when I do it's because none of the other shotguns are really worth using besides the Reegar.

[Paeyvn]

sy7ar wrote...

Paeyvn wrote...

sy7ar wrote...

Reegar
- Almost forgot, another OP gun with proper amps (incendiary 4). Any boss down in two clips without using it on an infiltrator. That's about 6 seconds. And lets not mention the kroguard combo which I made a solo record.  A bit tweaking is required, or fix the incendiary bug maybe. 

Eh, the gun shouldn't be touched. The gun is fine. It's the Incendiary bug with does that. Pretty apparent on the PPR as well.

That's why I underlined it.

edit: Then again, it has comparable damage output to several arc grenades, easily melting a whole spawn without using any amps. 

True, but it can't be tossed from cover like arc grenades, requires being point blank, depletes the mag in a second, and has an ammo reserve of nonexistent, it's also fairly heavy now.