740 réponses à ce sujet

[Seneva]

Claymore: low clip size. Miss the shot and you die
GPS: Charging up weapon
Graal: charging weapon. Not reliable on non-host usage
Disciple: A few shots but not enough damage
Reegar:: Perfect weapon for melee classes. If a melee hit dont kill it, Reegar will finish melting faces
Piranha: Perfect shotty for non-melee classes. Packs a punch and due to the lowish ammo reserve it's not a end to all means weapon.
Wraith: Not used it ever
Crusader: Not used it ever.

I don't like weapons with low clipsizes because missing a shot is usually me ending up dead on the ground.

[wdhsa]

wish I had it to tell you

[Dimlor]

It's lightweight and doesn't punish me as much as some other shotguns do when I miss because it's got a nice magazine size, all the while dishing out consistent damage and yes I know other shotties have a nice mag size too but their power is underwhelming.
When I'm not using the Piranha I'm using the Reegar or the Claymore, the only other shotguns I can actually kill something with.

[NobodyofConsequence]

I use the piranha mostly on my sentinel and AJ, and to a lesser extent on the destroyer as a cqc backup.

The weight means I can still have a 170%+ cool down on the sentinel and AJ, as it's lighter than the other damage dealers, but does more damage than the lighter shotties. I also tend to get a lot of lag, and having a good clip size means I have some survivability, espec when using ammo powers like cryo or disruptor ammo. The smart choke makes the gun usable at moderate range, so I don't have to expose myself too much or take too many risks if the game is laggy. And I LOVE the way it sounds. All the other shotguns have either smaller clips, making them a much greater risk for classes where I'm trying to keep a good cool down, or don't do enough damage to make them good tools for surviving in between casts on gold or platinum. Also, the reload time and the fire rate feel quicker on the piranha than my other favoured option, the talon, which as a general rule tilts the odds toward the piranha if I feel like having an easier game, or my lag is too high.

[ErrorTagUnknown]

well... it depends on the class. when i play fury -- i want to take the wraith.. or the scimitar (to finish off enemies the BEs don't take down).... but that would be silly because the pirahna just that kind of stuff better. quick shots - several if you need - moderate damage - close range.
but i think that's what the pirahna is supposed to be for.

When i take it on a destroyer.... or Tsol (or Gi.. though i don't generally play GI)... i take it because its DPS output is so massive to make the other shotguns obsolete.

if you took away its boss killing abilities - somehow - without hurting it's ability to be a little support for caster classes (no weight buff) -- you would have instant balance.

The Claymore is out DPSed by the Pirahna
The GPS is out DPSed by the pirahna --- though depending on the situation i might consider taking it -- though with the right skills and passives the pirahna can be accurate at range too.
Reegar Carbine --- the Pirahna comes close to its DPS -- but is also more useful at range than the reegar with the right class.
The Graal is an interesting case --- but at mid range the Pirahna can be nearly as accurate on Destroyer / Tsol. .... also the Graal works poorly off-host]
The wraith.... well as people have said, why use the wraith if you have the claymore .... and if you have the pirahna, why use the claymore?

See - the Claymore is good against infantry and bosses. it's good where it is - it has its limitations
with the Pirahna you get all that --- but more damage against both (in the form of DPS) --- faster rate of fire -- more versatility -- less risk....

Would it be possible, during damage changes, to give the pirahna a penalty against armor? an innate like.... 40-70% damage reduction against armor?
that might nullify its overpowered nature without really hurting casters all that much.
as far as i'm concerned it SHOULD be able to mow down soft targets. but not hard targets - and right now it's probably the best gun in the game at tearing hard targets to pieces.

[blaze55555]

Okay... I've been doing a ton of thinking, but I kinda had to recheck the stats on it. For reference, compare the shotgun stats and DPS on a weapon sheet (data taken directly from the dev's words in the weekly balance change thread, and from datamining the data from game files):
https://docs.google....RnbGRDYnc#gid=8

What I'm seeing a lot is a mention of who's using it. And what I'm trying to think is... how do you nerf a gun across the board so that everyone is less likely to use it without nerfing it conditionally, accidentally, so some people who prefer one class use it the same ridiculous amount, while others can't use it... and I've been thinking this.

In general, I see 2 archetypes of players in the ME3 MP experience:
Casters (Engineers, Adepts, Vanguards) which are best when utilizing spamloads of their powers (best with good cooldowns)
or
Weapon-Loadout users (Soldiers, Infiltrators, Sentinels) which are the best at ignoring weight cooldown issues, and utilizing weapons for insane DPS.
First: Some of the characters of one class fit the opposing role of the group I lumped them with; if you believe that to be the case, or if you know a build that conditionally switches the role of the character, just lump it with said role instead, and pretend I didn't just universally claim all characters of 3 classes are of one role while the other characters of the other 3 classes are a 2nd role.

Well the main things here are: classes that need a fast cooldown and a good weapon for backing up w/e cooldown exists; and classes that embrace any weapon, ignores weight, and gets to massively destroying with the weapon.

A simple weight nerf won't help, really, when you look at it, because if you read above, only the characters that fit the "Caster" role would suddenly hurt, and the "Weapon-Wielders" can continue going to town. That being said something else should be looked at:

It's RoF x Projectiles per Shot x Damage per Projectile

It hits 1500+ DPS, base, by itself. This is supposedly mitigated by a bad accuracy, which I think is a good thing, but... aye... I originally thought "the accuracy is bad enough that it can have such high DPS (easily the highest base DPS in the game, possibly save for the Reegar - which is currently confusing people trying to figure it out). But once I also threw in the weight ratio; I can't think of a single gun, save for the Acolyte, and maybe the Reegar (if I knew more about it), which can churn out such massive DPS with such a weight (ratio).

So to start, I think a weight nerf might be in order. I would love to point out that I often max out the Damage & Capacity and Power Damage ranks 4 and 5 of class innates on pretty much all characters for the bonus to recharge speed, and then, on casters, put the GPS and similar weapons on, on top of that. The result is a >100% power recharge speed increase, in spite of the weapons having weights above 1.00. I do this with Salarian Engineers a lot; I take a ~3 second recharge speed for more firepower over a ~2.5 second recharge speed and less firepower. A weight nerf shouldn't hurt the gun too bad, so long as it's not so extreme as to mess with the Caster/WeaponWielder ratio.

I thought, thinking on some proposed suggestions, "How do you balance it in a way that... that in a balanced way, doesn't hinder casters but hurts weapon wielders?" Not to go against Weapon Wielder types, but IMO: The DPS casters can get compared to a WW specced to hold a Piranha right... just pumping bonuses into AP, Damage, RoF, and Accuracy, the DPS on the Piranha can become insane, which cannot be done on a caster.

I came to this conclusion: Well, where does caster damage come from? Powers, and fire between cooldown; fire meant to supplement and compliment power cooldown times. Where does WW damage come from? Weapons. All powers typically result in simply boosting weapon damage output. So how do you nerf one without nerfing the others? Well reducing clip size isn't a bad idea, but thinking about a suggestion I read either on page 12 or 13, I realize weapon reload speed is an excellent way.

Think of this situation: Piranha is inaccurate, so you get into CQC with an enemy to use it right.
Caster: You charge in and use a power. Your power is recharging and takes 1-3 seconds before you can finish the combo off or use a new one. What do you do? Shoot to fill the space. Good DPS is good, but you don't NEED to sustain it long, b/c before long you're firing off another power; on adepts you're hoping for a large, CC, AoE Biotic Combo. If you run out of ammo, what do you do? Wait for a power to recharge, which if you're trying for a genuine caster, won't be much longer than it takes to empty a clip.
WW: You charge in and shoot. Enemies die by your bullets, and for the love of god, you are going to force-feed them to the enemy. Now your weapon runs out of ammo. What do you do? Reload? Oh shoot. Now you're CQC, have nothing between you and the enemy as you were trying to kill them (and most bosses shouldn't die in a single clip unless they've been worked on already, and most smaller enemies run in mobs, and as much as you miss, getting a kill and turning to work on the next enemy and succeeding is highly unlikely; esp. with 3+ smaller enemies or a big enemy supplementing the smaller enem(y/ies). Some classes can use a grenade. Some classes might have some kind of power they can throw in on the back end. But now you're close-range, exposed, can't dish out damage, and are overall in a weak spot. You pretty much have to run.
So the solutions I liked that kinda helped balance the weapon to WW classes, on the back end of any weight nerf? Ammo clip size and reload duration (and reload-cancel duration) nerfs. People won't like when their sustained DPS is massively hurt by bad reload times, and the need to constantly bail on an offensive room assault.

So In summation, in my not-so-humble opinion, a decent way to balance would be to increase weight slightly, so casters can't spam powers and fill the space with unlimited deadly auto-fire, and/or to decrease clip size, and/or to increase reload duration & reload cancel duration. One final thing: An accuracy nerf wouldn't be too shabby either. The reason I feel like the DPS, is or at least could be, totally balanced, as high as it is, is that it can make up for it's massive DPS with missing a lot, which in return, makes you a. get really close for High-Risk-High-Reward situations, and b. miss enough anyway, such that, the actual practiced DPS is actually on par with other weapons of its calibur.
Proposed Rank X weight: somewhere between 1.00 and 1.40
Proposed Reload Duration: Somewhere around 2.97 (Mantis/Javelin/Widow/Black Widow reload durations)
Proposed Reload Cancel Duration: Somewhere around 1.97 seconds or more (Would be one of few weapons to barely benefit from good reload canceling; to make up for it's high DPS)
Proposed Accuracy Change: Make spread... 10 to 40 degrees wider? (if we're going radius to aiming-straight, then 5 to 20 degrees is fine, as that adds a 10 to 40 degree spread to the overall cone, anyway)

Proposed actual change: preferably at least 2 of the above; if not: Some combination of the 4 mentioned above, perhaps making the changes on the weaker side of each stat-change, so as to not overnerf.
i.e. if you take all 4, then make the extra spread ~10 degrees from aiming-straight or 20 degrees total on the cone; and the weight increase to ~1.00 to ~1.10ish at rank X, and make the reload cancel durations around 1.5 and 2.5 seconds, reload cancel and reload duration, respectively

EDIT: Reading below, add potential spare-ammo nerf. Make it so you can, at most, carry ~3-6 clips worth including the ammo loaded currently in your gun. (i.e. not 3-6 reloads worth of ammo reserve, just 24 to 48 total)

Modifié par blaze55555, 20 septembre 2012 - 01:16 .

[Virazhides]

It's a fully automatic shotgun, that's why! Have you ever seen The Expendables? :-)

The Claymore is too heavy for the classes I currently play.
The GPS is kind of wonky - charging breaks stealth and doesn't let you take cover while doing it.
The Graal is again too heavy.
The Disciple .. it feels anemic, the sound is pitiful and it *feels* like it doesn't do anything. I don't like it.
The Reegar is okay and I do use it on some classes, Vanguards mostly.
The Wraith .. I'm not quite sure I've ever tried it.
The Crusader is pretty nice, I'd use it if I hosted the games but I rarely do.

The Piranha hits a sweetspot of doing damage up-close, being lightweight enough that I can use powers at a reasonable rate *and* I don't have to reload as often (I've never once gotten the reload-cancel to work), the sound of it firing is awesome and I love the look.

Modifié par Virazhides, 20 septembre 2012 - 11:43 .

[Heldarion]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Here's something to consider when tossing around balance ideas.

You can't just buff all weapons.  There is a concept known as a damage economy.  This works just like other economies.  If a company gives all their workers a raise, then they have to raise the price of the goods they are selling.  The new cost of the items means the workers all need raises to afford them which, then means the price of the goods have to be raised.  Inflation, in other words.

Similarly, if you need to keep a game challenging, you cannot just raise all the weapons because then all the enemies will require buffing.  Then we are caught in a viscous cycle of inflation again.  The trick is to keep the game challenging while ensuring all weapons have equal footing.  Common weapons for Bronze, Uncommon for Silver, and so on.

So, no...you can't just buff them all.  It's complicated and delicate.

Cheers

Maybe this has been said before, but there's one thing that needs to be clarified:

Is Piranha actually throwing damage economy out of whack?

If yes: how? Does your data actually suggest that the games with Piranha have a much higher probability of extraction/wave 10 completion? What is your desired rate of extractions? If your data doesn't suggest higher probability of extraction/wave 10 completion, why the nerf?
edit: better question would be - are players using Piranha (and the only ones using it in games) more likely to top the scoreboard by a significant margin in Gold/Platinum?

If no: why bother nerfing? If other weapons are buffed into the vicinity of Piranha, Piranha becomes replacable, it's not like the buff to other shotguns will magically throw damage economy out of balance if Piranha hasn't done it.

Modifié par Heldarion, 20 septembre 2012 - 11:47 .

[Dharvy]

I like the Piranha on my GI/Destroyer/Paladin and maybe my GE. Most of my casters use my Talon but if I was to use a shotgun with a caster it would be the piranha because its lightweight and actually does decent damage versus something like disciple.

Frankly I actually like to use a gun that kills so in case I have to solo I don't take 10mins trying to kill some bosses.

[megabeast37215]

People use the Piranha b/c it does lots of damage to both bosses and mooks, weighs next to nothing so it synergizes well with power spam... and is incredibly easy to use. No aiming required, just hipfire and keep the reticle somewhat near the target. The fact that it's so easy to use is probably the biggest reason it's used to much... that and the fact that it melts bosses when paired with appropriate consumables.

It's also so lightweight that it can be used in a heavy sidearm capacity. For instance: Lots of Destroyers are seen with Typhoons/PPRs and Piranha backups.

I used to use the Piranha... but I've grown to dislike the weapon. It's too easy to simply walk through hordes of enemies with it... it takes the challenge out of the game for me. I prefer the Wraith, Claymore and sometimes I'll use the Reegar, but I use that more as a shield stripper for Atlas/Primes and for shutting down Banshee charges.

Fixing the Piranha is simple: Nerf the damage hard, increase clip size to 12, increase ROF significantly. This will make the weapon still deadly vs soft targets, but it will be more affected by armor penalties... as such it won't be the OP boss melter it currently is. Something has got to be done... the weapon has no flaws except range, and that is easily compensated for.

[COLZ7R]

This should be interesting, there has been a lot of well thought out answers replying to the devs initial question with a almost universal conclusion that nothing is wrong with the fish but the "problem" lies with peoples dislike of the other shotties for different reasons.
So is the "solution" to nerff the gun that most of the people who bought your game like? If it is,its the strangest way to go about customer satisfaction i have heard of

[Alisira]

Seneva wrote...

Claymore: low clip size. Miss the shot and you die
GPS: Charging up weapon
Graal: charging weapon. Not reliable on non-host usage
Disciple: A few shots but not enough damage
Reegar:: Perfect weapon for melee classes. If a melee hit dont kill it, Reegar will finish melting faces
Piranha: Perfect shotty for non-melee classes. Packs a punch and due to the lowish ammo reserve it's not a end to all means weapon.

I don't like weapons with low clipsizes because missing a shot is usually me ending up dead on the ground.

This!

plus:
Crusader: Fun on bronze but in my opinion not enough punch from silver up. Also very heavy. Since I like to use powers this one is a no-go.
Wraith: Just got it (please guys remember that not everybody has a maxed out manifest). Tried it once...meh.

Also, Piranha works if you have lag issues. 

[PnXMarcin1PL]

Claymore rulez.

[Tonymac]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok,

So, you have a Claymore, a Geth Plasma Shotgun, a Graal Spike Thrower, a Disciple, a Reegar Carbine, a Piranha, a Wraith, and a Crusader. All gold plus the ultra rare and promo shotguns.

Why are you using the Piranha?

And don't give me, "Because the other shotguns suck!" That will just get you ignored.

Cheers

Ok, Look man.  You ask the question, then refuse in the very next statement to hear the truth, or the facts.   I find this....  irritating.   But I will play along and do my best to explain.

The fact is - the other guns may not  'suck' per se, its that the Pirahna (at least before this weeks incoming nerf of doom)  was actually designed with a real player in mind.  With its light weight, multiple shots, large carrying capacity, full auto function, ease of aiming and decent damage, its actually far better than any of the other shotguns.  Every other gun in game has weight issues, or low damage, low thermal clip capacity or low reserve ammo.  Some of those guns (like geth plasma shotgun) have you leaned out in cover for so long that unless you are stealthed or a krogan, you will die.  I refuse to spend the time it takes to master a gun that leaves me out of cover so that it can charge.

I need a gun that hits hard, and does not  weigh a ton, that carries a lot of juice.  The way your game is set up, carrying  a lot of weight makes my omni tool work more slowly - and the same with my biotic amps.  I can still run the same speed, but my powers regen more slowly (oddly enough).  Therefore I carry one gun.  Only one.   Weight affects my playstyle significantly - perhaps even moreso than firepower on some classes.

[Arcataye]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok,

So, you have a Claymore, a Geth Plasma Shotgun, a Graal Spike Thrower, a Disciple, a Reegar Carbine, a Piranha, a Wraith, and a Crusader. All gold plus the ultra rare and promo shotguns.

Why are you using the Piranha?

I use the Piranha because I like the style of it. If there's something like this in a game I'll probably use it - for an example the DAO-12 in Battlefield. But I do like pump-action shotguns even more. Katana feels about right but lacks in power so I have to pick something else. Rest of the shotguns just don't feel right so I'm either going with Piranha or Claymore, otherwise some totally different gun.

So I guess I'm going more with the feel or fun-factor of the gun than the power, of course having no power takes away the fun - it's a fine line.

-
About nerfs/buffs; if you do nerf some guns to perform at a "normal level" on Infiltrators or Destroyers, the gun will be almost useless on the rest of the classes compared to other guns. Problematic.

Modifié par Arcataye, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:32 .

[ryanshowseason3]

Have you considered a Reegar/Harrier possibility for highly effective weapons?

The ammo pools on those drain like theres a leak in the tub, but they tear enemies apart. I find it to be a very good balance.

Also it gets me using those thermal clip packs that I have so many of.

[Anduin The Grey]

Virazhides wrote...

It's a fully automatic shotgun, that's why! Have you ever seen The Expendables? :-)

The Claymore is too heavy for the classes I currently play.
The GPS is kind of wonky - charging breaks stealth and doesn't let you take cover while doing it.
The Graal is again too heavy.
The Disciple .. it feels anemic, the sound is pitiful and it *feels* like it doesn't do anything. I don't like it.
The Reegar is okay and I do use it on some classes, Vanguards mostly.
The Wraith .. I'm not quite sure I've ever tried it.
The Crusader is pretty nice, I'd use it if I hosted the games but I rarely do.

The Piranha hits a sweetspot of doing damage up-close, being lightweight enough that I can use powers at a reasonable rate *and* I don't have to reload as often (I've never once gotten the reload-cancel to work), the sound of it firing is awesome and I love the look.

A small tip:
Charge your GPS BEFORE you cloak  You'll fire AND retain your cloak

[greghorvath]

With heavy simplification:

Casters use it because it does decent damage with relatively small encumbrance.

Weapons classes use it because the decent damage becomes enormous with the weapons bonuses they give.

If you look at it this way the logical conclusion is that whatever you do, you either destroy it (DPS, weight, rof nerfs) or the change will be meaningless (your intended clip size reduction) as it will not change the situation described above.


Your question Derek Hollan, about how I propose "to bring the Piranha in line with the other shotguns" I say: I would not touch them.

It is not your place to decide what weapons the individual players will use. The ones wanting to use the Piranha will just be pissed off and the ones capable of changing to other weapons have already done it. People complaining about what weapons OTHER people use should be banned for griefing.

The resources used for the so called balancing should go into meaningful stuff like bug removal.

[nSquared75]

It really depends on the class and enemy. Since, I usually drop in "unknowns", it's more dependant on class. At launch of the game, i thought all shotguns sucked except the GPS. However, i preferred casters and so, I always tried to max cooldowns and, the rate of fire wasn't high enough for me if I got ambushed.

Times have changed. New characters and weapons renewed my interest and so, I reintroduced myself to the shoguns by way of Piranha. However, as I learn the game, I've been transitioning more toward the Claymore. With that being said, I still prefer the Piranha for my Demolisher. Nothing worse than being ambushed with no grenades and a single fire shotgun. Due to the spread pattern, it's a little bit lenient in a hairy CQC situation than my Harrier.

Modifié par nSquared75, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:48 .

[uzivatel]

Why do I equip Piranha? Lets see.. Its light, its automatic, it has predictable pellet pattern, its N7 themed, it feels powerful. I may not be fan of the recycled design, but as a whole its a cool weapon.

That said, I am using all the shotguns in mentioned in the first post ... well, other than the Disciple and Graal. IMO Disciple sucks (its underpowered and the stagger mechanism usually fails) and Graal is best used when hosting, which I rarely do, but I admit Graal is great weapon and its fun to use.

Derek Hollan wrote...

He has no desire to touch its damage or rate of fire which, is why he is proposing a 2 shot reduction in the clip.

Wouldnt that contradict with the model of the weapon?

Modifié par uzivatel, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:47 .

[NuclearTech76]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok,

So, you have a Claymore, a Geth Plasma Shotgun, a Graal Spike Thrower, a Disciple, a Reegar Carbine, a Piranha, a Wraith, and a Crusader. All gold plus the ultra rare and promo shotguns.

Why are you using the Piranha?

And don't give me, "Because the other shotguns suck!" That will just get you ignored.

Cheers

The disciple? Seriously?

I still use the claymore, GPS, and Reegar.

Are you finding that a lot of power based classes are using the Piranha or just weapons based classes? If it is the former you could just increase the weight instead of messing with the damage.

How do these weapons make it into multiplayer if they are so "overpowered" in initial testing?

[sonofabumdooda]

GPS is and always will be my first love.

Piranaha is your back up when you run round a corner and get trapped by an atlas and a brute.

grenade - shoot - hope for best.

[V_Davion]

I use the Piranna on my N7 Slayer. I used the Disciple before, but since i have the Piranna X now, the Recharge Time is good. I use it sometimes with my N7 Destroyer for obvious reasons

I also use the Claymore with my Geth Infiltrator.

[Elder_Jefferson]

uzivatel wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

He has no desire to touch its damage or rate of fire which, is why he is proposing a 2 shot reduction in the clip.

Wouldnt that contradict with the model of the weapon?

Yeah, I'm loving this. An 8-chamber shotgun with only six shots. Random couple of blanks in there, or something? Loading mechanism built by the BSN forums?