740 réponses à ce sujet

[Raizon]

- It looks cool
- It sounds cool (pawt pawt pawt pawt pwn pwn pawt)
- It has the "N7" logo proudly displayed on the side.

I shall quote the great Commander Shepard during a conversation with James Vega..
"The N7 program is a big deal but it's also a big commitment. You get the best training, best EQUIPMENT, best assignments."

The Piranha should look bad ass, feel bad ass, sound bad ass and kick ass.. and you know what? IT IS ALL THAT.

Lets face it, you guys made a bad ass weapon that should have been released as a N7 "Ultra Rare" weapon not as a "Rare" this way everyone would not have it and in most cases it wouldn't be maxed out.

If you nerf it this glorious weapon sent to us by the Bioware gods, remove the N7 logo and change the name...so we shall forget its former glory ever existed.

Modifié par Raizon, 20 septembre 2012 - 03:55 .

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok,

So, you have a Claymore, a Geth Plasma Shotgun, a Graal Spike Thrower, a Disciple, a Reegar Carbine, a Piranha, a Wraith, and a Crusader. All gold plus the ultra rare and promo shotguns.

Why are you using the Piranha?

And don't give me, "Because the other shotguns suck!" That will just get you ignored.

Cheers

The Piranha is used because :

-It's light
-It's easy to use (Full Auto with decent RoF)
-It does great DPS if all pellets hit (meaning Smart choke and an accuracy boosting class is the best way to use it).

Now let's compare it to other shotguns : 

Claymore : 

-Weighs a ton.
-Very powerful with great DPS if Reload cancelled. 

Therefore not 'easy' to use for 99% of the MP population.

GPS : 

-Okayish weight.
-Powerful and stagger with good accuracy even without smart choke, and homing projectiles.
-Doesn't go through walls/armor.
-Charge mechanic.
-Lag dependent.

As such, it won't be used that much because it depends on the connection with the host, people can be turned off by the charge mechanic, and the fact that it doesn't go through armor.

It's seen sometimes, but it's usually because the user is host.

Graal :

-Excellent shotgun. On host. I won't go through the details but the slightest lag can make the graal very hard to use. Can't penetrate cover either. If it was hitscan, I can guarantee it would be used by a lot more people. But it would also be kinda overpowered.

People never use it.

Disciple :

-Horrible damage and unreliable stagger. I use it to mix things up but no point using it in any 'serious' run. People never use it.

Reegar : 

-The ultimate flamethrower . The range cap & low ammo kinda balances it. But AP ammo IV or Incendiary IV can make it incredible against any faction.

Crusader : 

Eh. A sniper rifle disguised as a shotgun. Vey heavy, very accurate. Can be hard to use if you're not a good shot.
So power users won't use it, and weapon classes have better choices (Saber, Paladin to name a few)

Wraith : 
A decent shotgun, lightweight and decent trashkiller, but the abysmal RoF makes its use a no-no for plenty of players.

Now you know why people use the Piranha. Buff the Disciple and the Wraith, and if it's possible try to fix the lag-related problems to the GPS and the Graal, and you'll have a lot more variety.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

BTW, the sustained DPS for the Geth Plasma Shotgun was already higher than than that of the Piranha, even before the impending nerf. And it's far more accurate. But, for whatever reason, anything Geth always is ignored in these balance discussions.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 20 septembre 2012 - 04:04 .

[Rudest]

Nice post Jay! Lays it all out rather nicely.

Modifié par Rudest, 20 septembre 2012 - 04:09 .

[DeathScepter]

BuckshotSamurai wrote...


So after reading and replying to this thread yesterday/last night, I decided to try the Disciple again on a class that I thought might be favorable to using this weapon.  The N7 Slayer.

I figured Phase Disruptor (damage, efficient blast, shields) would do a good job of stripping shields so that the Disciple's stagger effect would be more consistent.  Well, it wasn't.  Versus Gold Cerberus Centurion, I was using 3 PDs, 4 Disciple shots and a Biotic Charge to kill them.  I can kill Phantoms faster than that by just not using a gun.


So my point from yesterday still stands:

Disciple:
Shots per clip increased from 4 to 6
Pellets to stagger decreased from 8 to 4

Piranha:
Damage modifier vs armor reduced from 100% to 30%

Wraith:
Shots per clip increased from 2 to 3
Rate of Fire increase by 25%

Eviscerator:
Shots per clip increased from 3 to 4
Add innate .15 meter cover piercing
Increase accuracy by 30%


You can make these changes without doing any direct damage buffs which shouldn't affect your Damage Economy.  We now have 4 caster friendly shotguns that all fill the same role but function very differently.  The Eviscerator is your long range, cover piercing 4 shotter; the Wraith is your medium range, high damage 3 shotter; the Disciple is your close range, medium damage stagger machine; and the Piranha is your close range biped slayer but with reduced effectiveness versus armored boss units.


THIS is how you balance the Piranha.

good post.

[Immortal Strife]

The piranha is light and has high dps to go along with a large clip. In other words it out classes most of the shotguns in nearly ever aspect of use. Some exceptions are the GPS, Claymore and Graal which provide more range but at the cost of weight. 

Modifié par Immortal Strife, 20 septembre 2012 - 04:15 .

[Home run MF]

Half this guns are terrible off-host and the Disciple is not gold viable, at least for me, wheren't this guns (Piranha and Typhoon) leveled for platinum anyway? I just don't get it.

[N7 Whiskey]

DeathScepter wrote...

BuckshotSamurai wrote...


So after reading and replying to this thread yesterday/last night, I decided to try the Disciple again on a class that I thought might be favorable to using this weapon.  The N7 Slayer.

I figured Phase Disruptor (damage, efficient blast, shields) would do a good job of stripping shields so that the Disciple's stagger effect would be more consistent.  Well, it wasn't.  Versus Gold Cerberus Centurion, I was using 3 PDs, 4 Disciple shots and a Biotic Charge to kill them.  I can kill Phantoms faster than that by just not using a gun.


So my point from yesterday still stands:

Disciple:
Shots per clip increased from 4 to 6
Pellets to stagger decreased from 8 to 4

Piranha:
Damage modifier vs armor reduced from 100% to 30%

Wraith:
Shots per clip increased from 2 to 3
Rate of Fire increase by 25%

Eviscerator:
Shots per clip increased from 3 to 4
Add innate .15 meter cover piercing
Increase accuracy by 30%


You can make these changes without doing any direct damage buffs which shouldn't affect your Damage Economy.  We now have 4 caster friendly shotguns that all fill the same role but function very differently.  The Eviscerator is your long range, cover piercing 4 shotter; the Wraith is your medium range, high damage 3 shotter; the Disciple is your close range, medium damage stagger machine; and the Piranha is your close range biped slayer but with reduced effectiveness versus armored boss units.


THIS is how you balance the Piranha.

good post.

Thanks man.  I really wish Derek and Eric would make more use of the damage modifiers on weapons during balance changes.  They could change a lot of the non-used guns to fill specific roles without doing any direct damage increases.  For instance, if the Geth Pulse Rifle had a 175% modifier versus shields & barriers but 75% versus armor, I'd use it with a Carnifex and swap weapons through the match when needed.  As it stands now, just equip Harrier and pull trigger.

[Moonwish]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Here's something to consider when tossing around balance ideas.

You can't just buff all weapons.  There is a concept known as a damage economy.  This works just like other economies.  If a company gives all their workers a raise, then they have to raise the price of the goods they are selling.  The new cost of the items means the workers all need raises to afford them which, then means the price of the goods have to be raised.  Inflation, in other words.

Similarly, if you need to keep a game challenging, you cannot just raise all the weapons because then all the enemies will require buffing.  Then we are caught in a viscous cycle of inflation again.  The trick is to keep the game challenging while ensuring all weapons have equal footing.  Common weapons for Bronze, Uncommon for Silver, and so on.

So, no...you can't just buff them all.  It's complicated and delicate.

Cheers

Noooo no no no no.. I will just ignore this "equal footing" part. It is just so UNTRUE that it cant be more untrue. Seriously, how can you say that a geth plasma smg, and the disciple has the same "impact" as a gps, carnifex, or even a mattock? Hell the predator is one of the best pistols in the game, it performs better then the silver ones, on gold and its common. And I didnt even started talking about crusader or the eagle, which should be at least close to the awesomeness of the Valiant and Hurricane. No this system is not balanced (its a bad economy) ... 
No offense meant

[GordianKnot42]

I only use Piranha on my shotty Infiltrators. The reason is that the rhythm of that gun fits very well with a sneak-in-BOOM-BOOM-sneak-out strategy. Any other close-quarters class I play uses Claymore, Wraith or Reegar.

My aim isn't good enough to use the Crusader or the Graal effectively. Disciple fire rate never seems to be able to take the enemy out faster that the enemy can take me out. Geth Plasma shotty I only use on my Geth, just 'cause.

[Psycho Pisces]

megabeast37215 wrote...

100RenegadePoints wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

For everyone bashing the Wraith... you're doing it wrong. Aim for the head.

Tried that already, makes no difference vs Prime/Banshee/Atlas/Brute/Ravager... The Wraith needs to be better against these enemies

AP ammo or Warp Ammo/Shredder Mod.... then shoot/reload as fast as you can... I usually hipfire in that situation.

Or you can just keep using the Piranha on 50+% of your classes... making the game even more dull.

An how long before a balance team deems this tactic as against intended play and removes THAT combo like they removed head-shot damage on heavies?    What makes the game dull, isn't that everyone is using the same gun... Its because when we get a weapon that sets a standard, instead of bringing UP the weapons that lack punch to a level closer to the standard setting weapon... They crush the weapon that dared be popular and kick it to the curb.  

They obstinately refuse to address what makes the gun overpowered, (Hello2u GI) and ignore the utility of the weapon in the hands of other classes..    I don't care what i put on my destroyer/demolisher.. I toss on heavy weapons because weight doesn't matter to them.  My other classes get a light, and dps oriented weapon so I can use the abilities of the character class in unision with my weaponry.   Maximize dps, shorten match lengths, increase fun.  

[BlackbirdSR-71C]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

Heldarion wrote...

Maybe this has been said before, but there's one thing that needs to be clarified:

Is Piranha actually throwing damage economy out of whack?

If yes: how? Does your data actually suggest that the games with Piranha have a much higher probability of extraction/wave 10 completion? What is your desired rate of extractions? If your data doesn't suggest higher probability of extraction/wave 10 completion, why the nerf?
edit: better question would be - are players using Piranha (and the only ones using it in games) more likely to top the scoreboard by a significant margin in Gold/Platinum?

If no: why bother nerfing? If other weapons are buffed into the vicinity of Piranha, Piranha becomes replacable, it's not like the buff to other shotguns will magically throw damage economy out of balance if Piranha hasn't done it.

I asked this as well, but was wordier.

I'd like an answer on it as well.

Exact same here - No response.

If the Harrier doesn't need a nerf, yet it's a strong weapon then the other Assault RIfles should be buffed to its level. Buffing them won't somehow make the game too easy if the Harrier hasn't done so yet! Come on Bioware, don't be stupid!

[tfoltz]

They probably aren't answering you because it's off topic.

A question was posed: why use the piranha?

Asking about balancing in general is a different discussion.

Modifié par tfoltz, 20 septembre 2012 - 06:00 .

[BlackbirdSR-71C]

tfoltz wrote...

They probably aren't answering you because it's off topic.

A question was posed: why use the piranha?

Asking about balancing in general is a different discussion..

Good point - but the same goes for shotguns! If the Piranha or GPS are good weapons, then buffing the weak ones (Katana, Disciple, Wrath, Scimitar) won't break the game either.

[Gamemako]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Hehe, to be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing a Wraith buff too.  So I won't say it will never happen.  I just might have a hard time selling it to Eric.

Just throw the math at him. The Wraith is a pathetic gun that people use because they don't know better. I occasionally use it as a backup because I just don't care if my backup is good.

The Piranha is used because it's DPS king. It murders everything and doesn't require pinpoint aim or funny positioning. You fire it from the hip while moving and just watch everything die. It rips apart bosses like nothing else. It's light and lets you stay in cloak longer on the few occasions where that matters. The gun synergizes perfectly with cloak cycling on a Gethfiltrator giving you all of the bonus and none of the downtime. The reasons are endless. The gun has the sole weakness of being less effective at long range, but who cares when engaging at long range is pointless due to enemies having perfect aim? It's smarter to let them get close and just bowl them over with the insane damage output of the Piranha.

It's not that other shotguns aren't good. The Claymore is heavy and relatively tough to use, but it puts out excellent sustained DPS and will instantly obliterate any mook that gets you your way. The Reegar is... well, overpowered. The ammo capacity and weakness against armor hold it back a bit, but it strips the shield off of a Platinum Atlas in less than 1 second -- nothing else can touch that. The Graal is a decent weapon, but suffers due to being a projectile weapon in a player-host game. I don't think the GPS is underused by any account. It's good at any range, staggers reliably, can be charged, and generally just rocks. It may not be able to get headshots, but it ignores shieldgating and armor DR, so there are too many reason to use it. A bit heavy, but most shotguns are.

The Katana, Scimitar, Eviscerator, Disciple, and Wraith could definitely use some work, though. Katana is a low-level weapon, sure, but man does it have awful DPS, especially for the weight, and the accuracy ain't too hot either when compared to other useless-rubbish weapons like the Avenger. The Scimitar is a disaster that is crippled by armor and honestly has no place anywhere. As a lightweight, high-capacity weapon, it should at least be effective against shields, but it isn't. Especially after the introduction of the Piranha, the Scimitar has no place anywhere doing anything. Any pistol is lighter and better. The Eviscerator puts out spectacularly-bad DPS -- actually on par with the Katana. It offers higher single-shot damage which assists against armor, but it's otherwise pretty awful. Fun, but awful. It would make sense if it got an armor multiplier like the description suggests it should, but nope. Just ends up being a bottom-tier gun. The Disciple puts out low DPS, is crippled by armor, and staggers about as often as an Eagle (antithetical to the description). The best comparison for it, in my opinion, is the ultra-rare Talon, which produces 50-140% more DPS and is more accurate. Makes the Disciple a paperweight.

It's hard to say anything about the Crusader. I don't think you can fix it. It's always just a heavy, scope-less sniper rifle in a world where sniper rifles kinda suck. The recoil is huge, the gun doesn't benefit from TC's SR bonus, and it can't be or use a backup because it's too damn heavy.

[GoldFinger008]

Good Post Jay

[Psycho Pisces]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Here's something to consider when tossing around balance ideas.

You can't just buff all weapons.  There is a concept known as a damage economy.  This works just like other economies.  If a company gives all their workers a raise, then they have to raise the price of the goods they are selling.  The new cost of the items means the workers all need raises to afford them which, then means the price of the goods have to be raised.  Inflation, in other words.

Similarly, if you need to keep a game challenging, you cannot just raise all the weapons because then all the enemies will require buffing.  Then we are caught in a viscous cycle of inflation again.  The trick is to keep the game challenging while ensuring all weapons have equal footing.  Common weapons for Bronze, Uncommon for Silver, and so on.

So, no...you can't just buff them all.  It's complicated and delicate.

Cheers

What is this... I don't even..  

[Scam_poo]

Honestly, the Reegar Carbine is the strongest weapon in the game, so yeah, why use the Piranha if you have it?
Also, Claymore. Feel the powerz.

[Jwashinobi]

I love the claymore but it tends to fire blanks if you advance on the enemy to fast,or from around a corner, whereas using the piranha has less damage but better rate of fire and more shots so if a blank did fire you still have is more than one shot and your not left out in the open to be shot by the enemy.

[thatonebigdude]

I don't have high level ultra rares, so I go with my Rare Xs more often than not. Usually, I'll run a Rev X with a Claymore X backup on my Destroyer, which is about the only class I'm comfortable with running on Platinum. On Gold and Silver, I'm a bit more freewheeling and I'll run an Evicerator or Wraith with all the mods I cam stack on it. In fact, the only time I use a Piranha is when I'm running Platinum PUGs. I must be the odd man out, because I don't really use the fish on casters, other than the Paladin. I use my Hurricane or Talon, which is a better shotgun than all but maybe two or three of the other, actual shotguns.

[Pedactor]

Derek,

Inflation only exists if you have control over what is available to choose from in your weapon loadout.

The Piranha is a rare and outclasses the hell out of an Ultra Rare in the Wraith. Actually so does the Claymore, GPS, Reegar, and Graal (if hosting).

We have no straight statement describing why the Piranha needs nerfed aside from its representation is too high.

If that's the case, you assume we as players are always simply going to take the path of least resistance, despite it not jiving with what appears to be your design direction? Because there's multiple rares on here in the Shotgun slot that outclass the crap out of the single Ultra Rare shotgun and a promotional gun that you can only level once every other week.

So you might see it as:

"Lol nubs, you can't just buff it all."

But what we're really telling you is:

The Disciple is worthless, it weighs nothing and that's what it does.  This is intended.
The GPS and Graal require hosting to reach their full potential, increasing our queues just to use the guns.  This is intended.
Reegar is a niche flamethrower.  This is intended.
Claymore is a hand cannon. This is intended.

What if you did this:

Before you nerf the Piranha, buff the RoF and damage of the Scimitar and make it full auto, significantly increase the damage of the Disciple, and increase the RoF and clip size of the Wraith.

See where, after 14 days, Piranha rep is then. Then look at how many of the users equipping the Piranha are Geth Infiltrators or Destroyers.

If it is primarily them despite multiple guns now being buffed to try to be more enticing, then you have to understand that you don't have to lower the clip size (which frankly won't accomplish much).

You have to attack the shot pattern and increase its spread and lower its RoF to the point that Hunter Mode and Devastator Mode are only then getting it back to where it is now.

The gun will still have uses simply due to its weight.

Modifié par Pedactor, 20 septembre 2012 - 06:48 .

[WestLakeDragon]

I almost exclusively use the Claymore when it comes to shotguns. It is insane with the per-shot damage, the reload cancelling makes it even more deadly, and it just feels so epic to shoot it.

[thegamefreek78648]

I find it amusing that people keep pointing out that a rare weapon out classes an ultra rare weapon and that their solution is to buff an uncommon weapon so its better than the rare... which is better than an ultra rare.

Bioware get ahead of this! Increase the damage, clip size, spare ammo count and accuracy of all the common weapons by 9000%!

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Rudest wrote...

Nice post Jay! Lays it all out rather nicely.

GoldFinger008 wrote...

Good Post Jay

 


Thanks .

Modifié par Jay_Hoxtatron, 20 septembre 2012 - 06:54 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

BuckshotSamurai wrote...


So after reading and replying to this thread yesterday/last night, I decided to try the Disciple again on a class that I thought might be favorable to using this weapon. The N7 Slayer.

I figured Phase Disruptor (damage, efficient blast, shields) would do a good job of stripping shields so that the Disciple's stagger effect would be more consistent. Well, it wasn't. Versus Gold Cerberus Centurion, I was using 3 PDs, 4 Disciple shots and a Biotic Charge to kill them. I can kill Phantoms faster than that by just not using a gun.


So my point from yesterday still stands:

Disciple:
Shots per clip increased from 4 to 6
Pellets to stagger decreased from 8 to 4

Piranha:
Damage modifier vs armor reduced from 100% to 30%

Wraith:
Shots per clip increased from 2 to 3
Rate of Fire increase by 25%

Eviscerator:
Shots per clip increased from 3 to 4
Add innate .15 meter cover piercing
Increase accuracy by 30%


You can make these changes without doing any direct damage buffs which shouldn't affect your Damage Economy. We now have 4 caster friendly shotguns that all fill the same role but function very differently. The Eviscerator is your long range, cover piercing 4 shotter; the Wraith is your medium range, high damage 3 shotter; the Disciple is your close range, medium damage stagger machine; and the Piranha is your close range biped slayer but with reduced effectiveness versus armored boss units.


THIS is how you balance the Piranha.

Yeah, it's better to change how a strong gun works for certain classes/builds than to change how it fundamentally works for everyone.

I use the Piranha a lot and I personally think it's a CQC gun, which means I really need a decent clip size in order to take on clusters of trash mobs and survive. I'd rather do with a little less innate armor penetration than that... maybe not 2/3 less, but maybe just 1/3.

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

I use it for close combat only, and generally only on characters that get an accuracy bonus.  It's too inaccurate for normal usage.  I'd rather use a Wraith or Claymore or Graal Spike for mid-range accuracy.

Even with the smart choke, the Piranha's accuracy is pretty bad for anything other than close combat.  I disagree that it has "decent" accuracy with the smart choke.  The GPS, Graal Spike, Wraith, Crusader, etc. without the smart choke are all more accurate than the Piranha with the smart choke.

+1   You forgot to mention the Claymore... the Piranha WITH Smart Choke is maybe as accurate or a bit less accurate than the Claymore without.

The Piranha is useless beyond middle range for most every class, outside of pellet spamming at the bottom of wave 11 to net free kills at dustoff. Even at middle range, it is only really useful vs. really big units like Atlases or Brutes, and deals only incidental damage against anything else.

Again, the clip size nerf is a big deal because the difference b/w 6 shots and 8 shots in close combat is huge... It's basically the difference between being able to take on a pack of 2-3 Troopers/Centurions or only being able to take on 1-2. Or saving yourself from a Phantom or not.