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#676
Pedactor

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Locutus_of_BORG wrote...


The Piranha is useless beyond middle range for most every class, outside of pellet spamming at the bottom of wave 11 to net free kills at dustoff. Even at middle range, it is only really useful vs. really big units like Atlases or Brutes, and deals only incidental damage against anything else.


No, it can headshot anything with Hunter Mode or D-mode's accuracy bonuses at least at a similar range to the PPR when fired from cover and aiming down sights.

I am not exaggerating.

The thing most don't realize is that there's an accuracy penalty when hip firing.  Hence the spread tightens simply by aiming down the barrel.

GI's and Destroyers have the majority of rep with it.  Even if they reduce the clip, I think its spread should be much wider to counteract those issues and make it a lightweight CQC gun then make the Scimitar have better range but lower damage while retaining full auto fire.

Modifié par Pedactor, 20 septembre 2012 - 07:20 .


#677
Sir_Alan_

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I've recently started using shotguns a bit more cus i've reached decent levels with some of them now but there are some i definately prefere over others. The following shotties are the only ones i'd consider taking into a firefight, everything else has not met my requirement for effectively/consistantly killing enemies:

I like the Claymores power but the single shot and slow reload is kinda annoying (yes, i reload cancel).
The lvl 1 Wraith i have, gives a nice balance between damage and weight though it's still far too heavy for my power classes, so i generally use the Eviscerator instead though this lacks the oomph needed for bosses.

Despite the damage potential of using the Graal and GPS because of the charging up feature, i just don't like waiting around and the bullet travel time is an issue, especially when lag is involved.

I carry the Piranha when i know i'll be getting close and personal with enemies but tbh in most cases i'd rather just carry an SMG or AR. Unless i use it on the N7 Soldier or Geth with Hunter Mode active, it doesn't really drop enemies as fast or as reliably as other weapons.

I assume you're asking this cus you want to gauge people views on something you're about to castrate? Well if you ask me, i reckon the reason why most people use it is cus it's easy to handle. I personally enjoy ohk sniping, so moving onto single shot shotties, isn't much of a leap. But not everyone enjoys ohk sniping and similarly therefore probably don't like single shot weapons hence they opt for the Piranha.

The piranha allows anyone to use it pretty effectively if they get close enough to a target, while even forgiving the occasional missed shot. The pellet spread is a joke outside of point blank range and i'd bet most of it's user slap on the smart choke, so we already have to sacrifice either damage or piercing. But the ability to instantly recover from a dropped shot is better than having to be 100% accurate with a single shot shotty is the biggest determining factor, well at least for me anyway.

You can nerf the Piranha but then people will just move onto something else. Then when you see a rise in that weapons use or people complaining, you'll probably nerf that to. Then when the next "overpowered" weapon comes to light, you most likely nerf that one to. I can imagine this cycle going on until there's nothing good for difficulties above Silver but by this point i won't care anymore cus i'll have moved onto a different game.

Modifié par Sir_Alan_, 20 septembre 2012 - 07:49 .


#678
Gamemako

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Pedactor wrote...

No, it can headshot anything with Hunter Mode or D-mode's accuracy bonuses at least at a similar range to the PPR when fired from cover and aiming down sights.

I am not exaggerating.

The thing most don't realize is that there's an accuracy penalty when hip firing.  Hence the spread tightens simply by aiming down the barrel.

GI's and Destroyers have the majority of rep with it.  Even if they reduce the clip, I think its spread should be much wider to counteract those issues and make it a lightweight CQC gun then make the Scimitar have better range but lower damage while retaining full auto fire.


The Piranha does not get accuracy bonuses from aiming down the sight or being in cover. Other shotguns do.

#679
oXTheReverendXo

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Gamemako wrote...

Pedactor wrote...

No, it can headshot anything with Hunter Mode or D-mode's accuracy bonuses at least at a similar range to the PPR when fired from cover and aiming down sights.

I am not exaggerating.

The thing most don't realize is that there's an accuracy penalty when hip firing.  Hence the spread tightens simply by aiming down the barrel.

GI's and Destroyers have the majority of rep with it.  Even if they reduce the clip, I think its spread should be much wider to counteract those issues and make it a lightweight CQC gun then make the Scimitar have better range but lower damage while retaining full auto fire.


The Piranha does not get accuracy bonuses from aiming down the sight or being in cover. Other shotguns do.


Not sure if it's a bug, but the spread on the Pirhana has definitely been tighter when fired from the hip when I've tested it.

#680
Tybo

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Actually, based on these images I would guess there is some very small accuracy bonus to aiming.  Almost insignificant, and not conclusive, but I don't care enough to test further.

Also, the claim that you can hit headshots like with the PPR with a spread like this at midranges is honestly a joke.  At best, I could see this hitting 3 pellets to the head on this short range at the top of the stairs at glacier.  PPR can put every pellet to the head at 4 times that distance.  Only the TSo under marksman can really headshot with this gun. 

Unaimed:
Image IPB

Aimed:
Image IPB

EDIT:  Made images not crap

Also, I've tested cover before, and that did not change the spread.  Or at least not noticeably.  I'm not redoing that again, someone else can do some printscreens if they care enough.

Modifié par tyhw, 20 septembre 2012 - 08:05 .


#681
sonofabumdooda

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Derek Hollan wrote...

Big Jack Shepard wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

I think Eric's proposal seems to be, at least somewhat, in agreement with most answers here.

He has no desire to touch its damage or rate of fire which, is why he is proposing a 2 shot reduction in the clip.

Image IPB


Psst...did you notice all of the Wraith feedback?





Hehe, to be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing a Wraith buff too.  So I won't say it will never happen.  I just might have a hard time selling it to Eric. Image IPB

Image IPB


Find a really nice dress and some fancy shoes..and don't forget to bat your eyelashes
and sell....sell like the wind
Wraith for the win.

#682
Gamemako

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tyhw wrote...

Actually, based on these images I would guess there is some very small accuracy bonus to aiming.  Almost insignificant, and not conclusive, but I don't care enough to test further.


Interesting. My previous testing seemed to show no cover bonus. I'd go back and confirm, but it hardly matters. You can't snipe with it under any circumstance.

#683
Tybo

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Gamemako wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Actually, based on these images I would guess there is some very small accuracy bonus to aiming.  Almost insignificant, and not conclusive, but I don't care enough to test further.


Interesting. My previous testing seemed to show no cover bonus. I'd go back and confirm, but it hardly matters. You can't snipe with it under any circumstance.


Yeah, my tests with cover showed no change.  Definitely cannot snipe with it unless a TSo, anyway. 

#684
Tybo

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Pedactor wrote...

No, it can headshot anything with Hunter Mode or D-mode's accuracy bonuses at least at a similar range to the PPR when fired from cover and aiming down sights.

I am not exaggerating.

The thing most don't realize is that there's an accuracy penalty when hip firing.  Hence the spread tightens simply by aiming down the barrel.

GI's and Destroyers have the majority of rep with it.  Even if they reduce the clip, I think its spread should be much wider to counteract those issues and make it a lightweight CQC gun then make the Scimitar have better range but lower damage while retaining full auto fire.


Yes you are.

Also, the way that accuracy bonuses stack additively, increasing the spread will barely hurt GIs and Destroyers while significantly hurting other classes.  

#685
uhaveaface

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i use the pirahna because the...

gps is great and i used it enough that i'm looking for change.
wraith has 2 super slow firing shots... would definitely use this with some modification.
graal is my favorite but doesn't consistently work when i'm not hosting.
eviscerator is solid and i still use it to change things up.
disciple is excellent in theory but rarely staggers its target.
crusader is fun but only on the few characters where cooldown doesn't matter.
claymore is perfect when i'm looking to be in the zone for one-shot destruction.
reegar is also fun for up close and personal action.

reducing the pirahna's clip to 6 sounds like a good balance and so would modifying the wraith and correcting the disciple and graal.

#686
Commander Coriander Salamander

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I'm using the Pirana because I'm playing a class that increases the accuracy. Otherwise I don't use it because I feel it isn't versatile enough and for any other class I generally use the Reegar of the Geth Plasma Shotgun depending on whether it's a short or mid range class.

EDIT: Reducing the clip size to 6 is something I could get behind, but then again, most of the time I usually find myself reloading too soon :lol:

On another note I really support more threads like this. I think more transparency and the player/developer feedback can only help the community.

Modifié par Commander Coriander Salamander, 20 septembre 2012 - 09:08 .


#687
Schiavoser

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I rarely use the Pirahna -- only when I was leveling up a lowbie and needed a light weapon. The way it spams bullets feels overpowered, so I feel less engaged than when I have to aim. I favor the Claymore and the Crusader. I never use any of the other shotguns.

#688
Dup3r

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I like it for the intight and dirty fights. The quick fire gives it a feel of actually getting somewhere. (though that's not necessarily true.)

I think the gun fills a great spot within the weapon/shotgun economy ...er arsenal.

#689
UKStory135

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BuckshotSamurai wrote...

DeathScepter wrote...

BuckshotSamurai wrote...


So after reading and replying to this thread yesterday/last night, I decided to try the Disciple again on a class that I thought might be favorable to using this weapon.  The N7 Slayer.

I figured Phase Disruptor (damage, efficient blast, shields) would do a good job of stripping shields so that the Disciple's stagger effect would be more consistent.  Well, it wasn't.  Versus Gold Cerberus Centurion, I was using 3 PDs, 4 Disciple shots and a Biotic Charge to kill them.  I can kill Phantoms faster than that by just not using a gun.


So my point from yesterday still stands:

Disciple:
Shots per clip increased from 4 to 6
Pellets to stagger decreased from 8 to 4

Piranha:
Damage modifier vs armor reduced from 100% to 30%

Wraith:
Shots per clip increased from 2 to 3
Rate of Fire increase by 25%

Eviscerator:
Shots per clip increased from 3 to 4
Add innate .15 meter cover piercing
Increase accuracy by 30%


You can make these changes without doing any direct damage buffs which shouldn't affect your Damage Economy.  We now have 4 caster friendly shotguns that all fill the same role but function very differently.  The Eviscerator is your long range, cover piercing 4 shotter; the Wraith is your medium range, high damage 3 shotter; the Disciple is your close range, medium damage stagger machine; and the Piranha is your close range biped slayer but with reduced effectiveness versus armored boss units.


THIS is how you balance the Piranha.








good post.



Thanks man.  I really wish Derek and Eric would make more use of the damage modifiers on weapons during balance changes.  They could change a lot of the non-used guns to fill specific roles without doing any direct damage increases.  For instance, if the Geth Pulse Rifle had a 175% modifier versus shields & barriers but 75% versus armor, I'd use it with a Carnifex and swap weapons through the match when needed.  As it stands now, just equip Harrier and pull trigger.






+1

#690
UKStory135

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I think that is funny that BW has put up a forum about how to balance the most balanced class of weapons in the game.

#691
N7 Whiskey

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The biggest issue BioWare has with the Piranha is that it is a Boss Slayer. Simple fix is reduce modifier to armor. Problem solved.

#692
Grunt_Platform

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Before anybody get's too crazy asking for resistance multiplier changes: I PMed Eric Fagnan about it and he confirmed that they cannot change those with live updates.

#693
HafniumMR

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Well I probably would use a piranha if I got one (I usually get things after they get nerfed), but here are my opinions about the mentioned alternatives.

Claymore: Very nice, but low ammo and not for every class due to weight.
GPS: Powerful, but no headshots and can't pierce objects (big problem for me). Can't quite get the hang of travel time, lag + console controller makes me miss.
Graal: Same as above.
Disciple: Low damage, takes too long to kill anything.
Crusader: Sniper without a scope, meaning I can't quickly and accurately place shots like with snipers. Very heavy and unrewarding for me, don't use it at all.
Reegar & Wraith: Don't have 'em.

Modifié par HafniumMR, 20 septembre 2012 - 09:39 .


#694
sandboxgod

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I wish they could not change anything at all with live updates at this point. Surely they have some other game at this point where their talents will be better utilized. Most of their changes at this point has become either harmful or completely useless

Anyway- response to OP:

Claymore- requires me to reload cancel. Plus it is heavy and messes with my recharge
Disciple- useless gun, no idea why you put it in your initial post
Piranha- no brainer, does great dmg & I can hold down the fire button. Good reload. Low weight. What were you guys thinking giving us this awesome gun who knows
Wraith- I dig it 
Reagar- very heavy but does awesome damage. I use it on my builds that do not rely on fast recharge/ Like my MQI
Graal- now that it has been buffed will use it again

edit- Crusader, just unlocked it the other day. Stats look underwhelming. Might try it someday tho to confirm

Modifié par sandboxgod, 20 septembre 2012 - 09:42 .


#695
Grunt_Platform

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sandboxgod wrote...

I wish they could not change anything at all with live updates at this point. Surely they have some other game at this point where their talents will be better utilized. Most of their changes at this point has become either harmful or completely useless

Viper says hi.

#696
Silentbob711

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Only time I really use the piranha is on my destroyer because of his rof, mag size buffs and its automatic. The automatic is the only reason I consider using it on him.

#697
ToaOrka

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Please, I hate the piranha. I use the Claymore or Crusader on my Asari Vanguard, and the Talon on my Turian Solider. Shotguns feel...weird to me. Only certain classes can pull it off for me. I'm sure I've got the piranha on some of the classes I never use, but I never use the Piranha on classes I frequently play.

#698
Pedactor

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tyhw wrote...

Yes you are.

Also, the way that accuracy bonuses stack additively, increasing the spread will barely hurt GIs and Destroyers while significantly hurting other classes.  


I was sniping from the hill on Condor, using a rock for cover, across the "alleyway" behind the sniper positing where the crates lie to as far as the ramp with a GI and a smart choke. 

I picked off at least 4 troopers and 2 centurions like this.

I was shocked as hell, too. 

#699
dnapayne

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My question is: "Why introduce a weapon that you don't want us to favor?"

#700
KoJotP

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Damage budget seems like same kind of bull**** as "artistic integrity" involved in endings. A lot of people suggest that if the balancing should happen it should be buffing other stuff up to good and fun stuff like Piranha not bringing down the one thing that actually works, works to the point that people just prefer to use it. Its good weapon but still not game breaking good. The reason why it's preferred is that other ones are broken in some way (GPS/GST shooting lag-affected projectiles, Claymore being heavy 1-shot, Claymore being actually a heavy, yet another sniper rifle in disguise, Wraith with weird slow RoF, etc.)
We get it that weapons have to have drawbacks, but just don't make them absurd. Piranha is like AK-47 of real world. Not the best weapon in any aspect. But well above average on all of them - being sturdy, cheap, reliable, easy to fix, packing a punch, etc. so the overall score makes it good

You fed us with enough junk weapons BW. Get real and start making weapons that are user-friendly and that have drawbacks that aren't counterproductive to main features of the same weapon. Stripping shields after charge-up? sure, just don't pop me out of cover. No one in sane mind would use a weapon that abides to such perverted logic. Drawback should come from mechanics of certain actions not be put there forcedly on purpose - like high RoF should make CQC aiming impossible to do but compensated by big spread of pellets actually making in unnecessary. If any of real world weapons had such major flaws like we have on each of ME3 weapons it would be scrapped right off the designing board or at least if the designers were lunatics it would be cast off by the prospective users. I get it that we have to have like 50 unlockable items so we would feel obliged to buy more packs with BW points but frankly - if you make it too tedious to get weapons we like and it already is pretty tedious we might stop having fun and then playing altogether. Deal with bugs and major issues, improve shunned stuff so we would actually want to use it not be forced to do so and it is going to better for all of us. People tend do use the most successful solutions. Make all or most of the choices equally viable by making them equally good not equally bad