740 réponses à ce sujet

[sirjimmus86]

Can headshot with the Piranha and kill in 2-3 bullets, still then able to kill another enemy before reloading.

This is talking as a Shadow anyway.

[MyChemicalBromance]

Shotguns are for primitives.

[ArmeniusLOD]

I only use the Piranha as a primary on my Shadow, and she barely ever shoots it.  It's great for her because she's always using Shadow Strike and getting up close, plus it's lightweight.  Pretty much the only time she's shooting is at Atlases.

I use the Piranha as a backup on my Destroyer, using the Falcon as his primary.  Piranha is only used against Atlases due to the ridiculous amount of health they have now.  The Falcon is fine for everything else including Banshees because of the high stagger rate.

Other than that, if I'm going to use a shotgun, it's going to be the Claymore.  I'd love to try the Wraith, but mine is only at level II right now.  All the other shotguns have drawbacks that I simply cannot live with.

I hate charging weapons, for one, so that eliminates the GPS and Graal.

The Eviscerator is too slow without the return on investment.

The Katana is a common and seems to not shoot straight.

The Scimitar can actually be decent in some applications, but being lower damage and faster firing, it begins to suffer from AR-syndrome.

The stagger on the Disciple is nice, but you're not causing any damage doing this, making it counter-intuitive to switch between weapons when you need it in close-encounter situations.

The Reegar is a beast, but you have to be extremely close to use it.  I really only use it on Vorcha, since the Reegar fits the role of killing things fast to keep your Bloodlust stacks up.

And the Crusader is just too damned heavy to be of any use on classes I think would benefit from it.  It's also kind of hard to use on consoles, especially with how much slower your aim is while aiming down the sight (why do devs do this <_<... at least give us the option).

So there you go.  This is why I only choose between the Claymore or Piranha.

[Xaijin]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok, so most people seem to agree the other shotguns are good.

How would you propose to bring the Piranha in line with the other shotguns so you, as players have a tough choice of which shotgun to bring to the field, without disrupting the damage economy?

It's already in-line with other shotguns. If it were to be further tweaked, cutting the effective range by 30% and lightening the clip would be fine.

The AA12 is a ridiculously good gun, one of the first military shotguns aside from the Browning gold or Franchi12 fully capable of going in-field as a PRIMARY weapon. The ME equivalent should be a strong weapon. It's an N7 weapon and should be tiered and spec'ed accordingly.

[Darth333]

I use it on my shadow because it is lightweight but I rarely use the gun with this class which is oriented towards melee attacks (more fun)...however, if I get into a bad situation, it can be a life saver.

[Tybo]

Pedactor wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Yes you are.

Also, the way that accuracy bonuses stack additively, increasing the spread will barely hurt GIs and Destroyers while significantly hurting other classes.  

I was sniping from the hill on Condor, using a rock for cover, across the "alleyway" behind the sniper positing where the crates lie to as far as the ramp with a GI and a smart choke. 

I picked off at least 4 troopers and 2 centurions like this.

I was shocked as hell, too. 

As a GI, due to its extremely high damage modifiers, you don't have to get headshots to kill.  Simply landing all 8 pellets on the body can kill a trooper with gear/consumables.  You will probably be needing a second shot with a Destroyer.  Look at the pics I posted.  At any real range, you're honestly relying on luck to hit headshots.  A gun with actual accuracy such as a PPR or even a Scoped Talon will be able to kill much more reliably.

[Vlandis]

I think it should have originally been UR, then it would have been fine. I mean it's basically an AA-12, and thus meant to be amazing Its closer to the USAS-12 now that I think about it. the AA12 has an effctive range of 100m with 12 gadge slugs, the USAS12's effective range is only around 30-40m. But I agree with Eric with his proposed changes though, other then that only thing I could think of is to reduce it's rate of fire, or even increase its reload time(look at it, its a "drum mag" reload isn't usually that quick with them.

*Side note*
Weapon jamming would be a cool feature to implement(full auto weapons only). Make it so the reload animation has a chance of triggering mid-clip(then not triggering for the rest of that clip or the next) would help add diversity to some weapons, The higher damaging and/or more accurate weapon that has a higher chance of jamming or the more reliable but lower dps weapon that hardly ever jams.

Just something to think about for future games. Actually I'm surprised CoD hasn't done so already. And now that I think about it, I'm not sure if its even possible with future weapons and thermal clips and all....

Modifié par Vlandis, 20 septembre 2012 - 10:18 .

[Rebel_Raven]

'mma get real here. Blunt, and brutal, and to the point.

If you -really- want me to use a shotgun, it needs to do substantial damage to a boss. 2 bars of damage on a brute on silver -minimum- in one clip without consumeables, and equipped by an engineer.
There's more than a few weapons that can actually do this, but not many shotguns that will do this. Even fewer are caster friendly.

If it can't do that, It's not my main weapon.

I play largely on silver atm, and not even the Disciple is functional there! It hardly scratches enemies, it does nothing to bosses, and if I wanna stagger something, 'll get in headshots with just about any other weapon and get more reliability.

The Scimitar is equally as useless.

If a weapon can't kill, it had better be -really- effective at something else.

[Stinja]

I use the Piranha for its close range DPS on close range characters. Mostly only on vanguards, as you can close range easily (ditto Reegar). Obviously limited by lag / hosting / vanguard glitches...
Only other characters that can use it are ones that pull in the spread (eg: Destroyer), but I don't play soldiers much.

Claymore I only use on infiltrators. It seems to suit the one-shot style.

Graal I use on versitile characters, like the Justicar. Ones that can handle the weight, fight at all ranges, and need a (headshot) shotgun to complement.

I rarely use the others listed, as they're either too weak at my level, don't suit my style or I find useless (eg: Disciple has too low damage for stagger chance. If it staggered 100% all enemies, including bosses, but as is I find it awful on gold).

Rebel_Raven wrote...

If a weapon can't kill, it had better be -really- effective at something else.

Yep, basically this, with the slight amendment of range dependancy.  Given most maps aren't huge, longer range guns can't be much worse for the supposed benefit of shooting further.  A little yes, but not the huge disparity we see.

Modifié par Stinja, 20 septembre 2012 - 10:28 .

[CookieRocket]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok,

So, you have a Claymore, a Geth Plasma Shotgun, a Graal Spike Thrower, a Disciple, a Reegar Carbine, a Piranha, a Wraith, and a Crusader. All gold plus the ultra rare and promo shotguns.

Why are you using the Piranha?

And don't give me, "Because the other shotguns suck!" That will just get you ignored.

Cheers

Trick question.  I'm using a Carnifex on my caster, and having lots of fun.  Ergo, Carnifex should be nerfed.  I should have to empty at least five clips into a Geth Trooper to kill it, right?

[Moress]

it's light and doesn't tickle enemies like the scimetar, so it lets my QFE carry a shotgun and be effective. Other than her I make much, much more use out of the claymore, graal and wraith. In that order

[scheherazade]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok,

So, you have a Claymore, a Geth Plasma Shotgun, a Graal Spike Thrower, a Disciple, a Reegar Carbine, a Piranha, a Wraith, and a Crusader. All gold plus the ultra rare and promo shotguns.

Why are you using the Piranha?

And don't give me, "Because the other shotguns suck!" That will just get you ignored.

Cheers

Note :
Keep in mind that in Gold/Plat (especially in Plat), how good a gun is versus large units becomes more important.
Since Platinum has a massive glut of heavy (armored) units, effectiveness versus heavy (armored) units becomes the only metric that matters.
Basically, damage after armor DR is the key stat. Good shield gate penetration is assumed as a standard for any SG.

Piranha:
PIranha has best/easiest anti-armor damage of the bunch.
Gold/Plat damage revolves around how good a gun is versus armor.
So if you're playing gold/plat, then you're using the Piranha.
It also doesn't suffer so much as to become not-worth-while when you're out of certain Gold/Plat preferred mods (SG+AP).
The light weight also makes this gun usable on a power-heavy class, without any meaningful impact on power usage.
Smart choke tends to extend the range of the Piranha far enough to allow firing from safe ranges.

Reegar :
"Reegar + AP ammo + SG mod" is also an amazingly good combination.
But without AP+SG, the reegar's effectiveness plummets very hard (harder than other gun's effectiveness would) - and the reegar is outclassed by other guns.
Basically, if you don't have the mods, the Reegar isn't worth using.
And you can't use "Reegar+SG+AP" all the time because you simply run out of those consumables faster than you can replenish them (RNG).
Reegar is also [practically] limited to classes that can easily avoid damage (invul frames / TC) or absorb damage (krogans). Soft classes when using this gun require a large skill threshold (to avoid damage) that many players can't cross.

Claymore :
It's a great gun.
It's the only shotgun where running out of AP ammo makes me think "Oh well, no matter".
Amazing infiltrator weapon.
Good sniper rifle alternative with smart choke.

GPS :
I don't use it much.
Damage is good.
Good claymore alternative on an infiltrator.

Graal :
I don't use it much.
Damage is good.
It once was the claymore for classes that are weight sensitive.
When headshots were in the game, this gun was a great gun. Fully charged headshots over long distance with shield gate penetration. Top notch.
Versus the GPS, you gave up ease of use, but gained headshot damage.
After headshots were removed, this gun had no reason to be used over a GPS.
GPS offers par damage, easier usage.

Disciple :
Trash damage
Good caster weapon - but the piranha is meaninglessly heavier, and superior in effectiveness.

Wraith :
Inter-shot delay is too long... It's annoyingly long.
Claymore is this gun but delivers most of both shots at the same time.
Why wait for the second shot, when you can deliver both at once? Basically, no reason to use wraith over claymore (That may change at lxl X after it improves... but the delay is still annoying.)

Crusader :
Shield gate.
Sniper rifle that doesn't get sniper rifle damage bonus.

-scheherazade

Modifié par scheherazade, 20 septembre 2012 - 10:57 .

[Rebel_Raven]

What scheherazade said, but I'd apply it to all difficulties. Or at least with silver, too.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Why are you using the Piranha?

I used the Piranha a few times and stopped. For a long time, I didn't use the Claymore, but once I used it I haven't often used any of the others. If I wanted a better clip-size, I'd either go with the GPS or the Graal. Not the Piranha - somehow it feels weird. Hard to explain. I just don't enjoy using it.

[Rebel_Raven]

I hope Bioware is still keeping tabs on this thread. There's some consistent data I happen to agree with in this thread.

Mostly that most shotguns across the rarity scale simply lack in damapge output, hence they aren't getting used.

[Asebstos]

scheherazade wrote...
After headshots were removed, this gun had no reason to be used over a GPS.

I'm sorry, but what? The only unit for which headshots were removed, that would have affected the Graal, was the Prime. One unit in one faction.

[scheherazade]

Asebstos wrote...

scheherazade wrote...
After headshots were removed, this gun had no reason to be used over a GPS.

I'm sorry, but what? The only unit for which headshots were removed, that would have affected the Graal, was the Prime. One unit in one faction.

- Nevertheless that's still the only advantage Graal had over the GPS
- There are plenty of Primes to shoot at in a platinum match, especially when you start with geth (which IMO is the easiest platinum run).
- AFAIK (last I read) the anti-headshot protection still exists in the atlas, albeit it's imperfect around the edges (Or was that just for the Typhoon?). Maybe you're saying the protection was removed, but I haven't taken the time to count shots or investigate anything recently.

-scheherazade

Modifié par scheherazade, 21 septembre 2012 - 12:11 .

[JaimasOfRaxis]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok, so most people seem to agree the other shotguns are good.

How
would you propose to bring the Piranha in line with the other shotguns
so you, as players have a tough choice of which shotgun to bring to the
field, without disrupting the damage economy?

My fixes for the shotguns are as follows:

Katana: Reduced weight. It's the entry Shotgun and should weigh the least other than the Disciple.

Scimitar: Improved fire rate, slight mag increase. Make it the Piranha's angry little half-brother which isn't as meaty but is at least usable for something.

Eviscerator: Improved fire rate.

Disciple: Improve stagger.

Graal Spike Thrower: Improve netcode to allow better shot pathing and prevent "off-host weapon" syndrome. You fixed it for the Falcon, Krysae, and Striker, so you can do it for this.

Geth Plasma Shotgun: See Graal.

Piranha: Reduced magazine to 6. Remember to allow magazine upgrades to proc correctly so they're worth using.

Claymore: Fine as is.

Reegar: Smart Choke should negligably extend range on this weapon (by 10% per level).

Crusader: Subdivide primary projectile into 5 smaller projectiles that carry the same linear trajectory, to keep the appearance of a slug. Lower per-pellet damage to keep per-shot damage and DPS Identical. Bam, viable, shield gate-ignoring slug shotgun.

Wraith: Improved fire rate. Negligably improved reload rate.

[Rebel_Raven]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ok, so most people seem to agree the other shotguns are good.

How
would you propose to bring the Piranha in line with the other shotguns
so you, as players have a tough choice of which shotgun to bring to the
field, without disrupting the damage economy?

My fixes for the shotguns are as follows:

Katana: Reduced weight. It's the entry Shotgun and should weigh the least other than the Disciple.

Scimitar: Improved fire rate, slight mag increase. Make it the Piranha's angry little half-brother which isn't as meaty but is at least usable for something.

Eviscerator: Improved fire rate.

Disciple: Improve stagger.

Graal Spike Thrower: Improve netcode to allow better shot pathing and prevent "off-host weapon" syndrome. You fixed it for the Falcon, Krysae, and Striker, so you can do it for this.

Geth Plasma Shotgun: See Graal.

Piranha: Reduced magazine to 6. Remember to allow magazine upgrades to proc correctly so they're worth using.

Claymore: Fine as is.

Reegar: Smart Choke should negligably extend range on this weapon (by 10% per level).

Crusader: Subdivide primary projectile into 5 smaller projectiles that carry the same linear trajectory, to keep the appearance of a slug. Lower per-pellet damage to keep per-shot damage and DPS Identical. Bam, viable, shield gate-ignoring slug shotgun.

Wraith: Improved fire rate. Negligably improved reload rate.

As far as the disciple goes, I know staggering is nice, and all, but what good is it if the gun that staggers the enemy can't kill them? What good is it vs armored units? Disciple needs a serious Damage boost.

I know it's good for casters, but I really don't wanna rely on my powers to take down a banshee.

[Gamemako]

scheherazade wrote...

- AFAIK (last I read) the anti-headshot protection still exists in the atlas, albeit it's imperfect around the edges (Or was that just for the Typhoon?). Maybe you're saying the protection was removed, but I haven't taken the time to count shots or investigate anything recently.

There is no headshot on Atlas mechs. The issue is with wepaons that have penetration, which causes them to hit the cockpit multiple times (even three times if fired in the right spot). That bug was supposed to be fixed, but it isn't. The GPS and Graal both have no penetration and cannot get any sort of double/triple hit.

The Brute had a head to shoot, IIRC. Primes definitely did. Don't remember about Banshees.

Rebel_Raven wrote...

I hope Bioware is still keeping tabs on this thread. There's some consistent data I happen to agree with in this thread.

Mostly that most shotguns across the rarity scale simply lack in damapge output, hence they aren't getting used.

I don't think that's true. The Reegar, Claymore, and GPS are excellent weapons. The Piranha is just objectively overpowered. This is very clear from the math and is clearly borne out in BioWare's usage data. There are guns that need buffs -- Katana, Scimitar, Eviscerator, Disciple, Wraith -- but that does not mean that the Piranha isn't just too powerful. Compare it to the larger picture and it's just insane.

[Rebel_Raven]

Gamemako wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

I hope Bioware is still keeping tabs on this thread. There's some consistent data I happen to agree with in this thread.

Mostly that most shotguns across the rarity scale simply lack in damapge output, hence they aren't getting used.

I don't think that's true. The Reegar, Claymore, and GPS are excellent weapons. The Piranha is just objectively overpowered. This is very clear from the math and is clearly borne out in BioWare's usage data. There are guns that need buffs -- Katana, Scimitar, Eviscerator, Disciple, Wraith -- but that does not mean that the Piranha isn't just too powerful. Compare it to the larger picture and it's just insane.

GPS is the only one worth using on a caster, and even then you're taking a hit to cooldowns, and gaining the inability to shoot through guardian shields and gaining the need to have to shoot around their shields at the ground. Kinda annoying, that.

The Claymore is extremely prohibitive for casters thanks to it's weight.

The Reegar's REALLY dangerous for squishies to use. It boggles me why the quarians made such a weapon since being that close is absurdly dangerous for them.

Small wonder casters like the pirahna? There's hardly another choice coz the shotguns you listed are virtually useless in the grand scheme of things.

[JaimasOfRaxis]

I think I'd be cool with the Disciple doing a bit more damage, Raven.

Also, idly, you have the best avatar on this entire forum.

[godlike13]

Rifneno wrote...

It's lightweight and provides good damage.

[Rebel_Raven]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

I think I'd be cool with the Disciple doing a bit more damage, Raven.

Also, idly, you have the best avatar on this entire forum.

I'd like the disciple to do a lot more damage, honestly. it needs to actually have a chance to kill targets on silver. staggering isn't good enough coz I can do that with the falcon. And better, in general.

Also, thank you. :3

[Gamemako]

Rebel_Raven wrote...

As far as the disciple goes, I know staggering is nice, and all, but what good is it if the gun that staggers the enemy can't kill them? What good is it vs armored units? Disciple needs a serious Damage boost.

I know it's good for casters, but I really don't wanna rely on my powers to take down a banshee.

The thing is, that would at least give it a niche. If the gun reliably staggered opponents, you'd consider bringing it to keep enemies from killing your squishy Fury while you're killing things. The damage is pretty bad and could use a buff, but nobody would use the thing on the grounds of damage output unless you buffed it by a huge amount (at least 50%). Stagger gives it a role and gives you a reason to take it over a more versatile pistol or pistol/SMG combo.

Rebel_Raven wrote...

GPS is the only one worth using on a caster, and even then you're taking a hit to cooldowns, and gaining the inability to shoot through guardian shields and gaining the need to have to shoot around their shields at the ground. Kinda annoying, that.

The Claymore is extremely prohibitive for casters thanks to it's weight.

The Reegar's REALLY dangerous for squishies to use. It boggles me why the quarians made such a weapon since being that close is absurdly dangerous for them.

Small wonder casters like the pirahna? There's hardly another choice coz the shotguns you listed are virtually useless in the grand scheme of things.

1) The GPS is worth using on many characters. The damage output is good, the weapon is all-range, and it offers 100% stagger (useful for anyone). Guardians are a problem, but that's hardly the issue you make it out to be. I have used it on quite a few characters. The reason I don't use it much today? Piranha, Reegar, Harrier.

2) Yes, it is too heavy for casters. I am not certain how that matters at all unless you think every weapon should be a caster weapon.

3) ... I don't know what game you're playing, but it's not ME3. Enemies don't miss on Gold and Platinum. Engaging opponents at long range is suicide: you can't hit them, but they suffer no penalty. It's always smarter to engage at close range, where you have fewer enemies shooting at you and don't end up missing. The reason you don't use the Reegar on a caster is that it has very little spare ammunition and lacks versatility, so then you have to add a sidearm, which clips your cooldown even further.

4) That's the problem. By and large, it's not casters using the Piranha. The gun is a favorite of Gethfiltrators and Destroyers because (1) it has insane damage output and (2) the class accuracy bonuses remove the weapon's only weakness.