740 réponses à ce sujet

[Tankcommander]

I use Graal mainly, and sometimes Reegar.

Pirahna is inaccurate, and feels pretty weak. All other shotties are meh, but the Graal and Reegar get it done.

[slescens]

Yet to unlock Pirahna.... Insert Sad face...

Getting better at reload cancelling Claymore... insert happy face...

Crusader, learning to like, good against everything except banshees so far.

GPS... I have moments of brilliance and moments of hate with this gun. The travel time and slightly homing projectiles don't jive well with me sometimes...

Graal...want to like more, sometimes it feels like the destroyer of worlds, sometimes it feels very weak...

[Jetblackmoon]

Piranha outDPS's all the other shotguns when used on classes that can use it efficiently, i.e. Destroyer, Geth Infiltrator (any Infiltrator really, but mainly Geth). It's also lightweight and easy to use, which makes it suitable to use on classes that wouldn't normally use shotguns, like Adepts or Engineers.

I've been a huge fan of the Reegar since it came out (and honestly surprised it hasn't been nerfed, despite a weight increase) but before the Reegar and the Piranha were out, I used the Geth Plasma Shotgun. In terms of problems with non-Piranha shotguns:

- Geth Plasma Shotgun (what I used before the Reegar and Piranha) and Graal Spike Thrower both become much less effective if you're not hosting.
- Disciple does laughable damage. Yes, a main selling point of it is the stagger effect, but if you're getting close enough to where a stumble would be useful (mainly on Vanguards), I'd rather have something stronger to finish the enemy off with.
- I wanted to like the Wraith, but I felt like it didn't have a fast enough fire rate to draw me in.
- Crusader is basically a less efficient Geth Plasma Shotgun that weighs much, much more.
- Claymore is a very good shotgun, one of the most balanced shotguns in my opinion. High weight, high damage, reload canceling needed to make the most of it.

So while I don't necessarily prefer the Piranha, it's the shotgun I'll go to if I want to get through a game easily. The nerf of 8 to 6 bullets is hardly going to change anything. The Piranha will still be a dominant weapon for classes that make the most of it, and it will still be used on classes that don't even need to shoot their gun much because of its light weight.

Modifié par Jetblackmoon, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:56 .

[Rebel_Raven]

Gamemako wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

As far as the disciple goes, I know staggering is nice, and all, but what good is it if the gun that staggers the enemy can't kill them? What good is it vs armored units? Disciple needs a serious Damage boost.

I know it's good for casters, but I really don't wanna rely on my powers to take down a banshee.

The thing is, that would at least give it a niche. If the gun reliably staggered opponents, you'd consider bringing it to keep enemies from killing your squishy Fury while you're killing things. The damage is pretty bad and could use a buff, but nobody would use the thing on the grounds of damage output unless you buffed it by a huge amount (at least 50%). Stagger gives it a role and gives you a reason to take it over a more versatile pistol or pistol/SMG combo.

Rebel_Raven wrote...

GPS is the only one worth using on a caster, and even then you're taking a hit to cooldowns, and gaining the inability to shoot through guardian shields and gaining the need to have to shoot around their shields at the ground. Kinda annoying, that.

The Claymore is extremely prohibitive for casters thanks to it's weight.

The Reegar's REALLY dangerous for squishies to use. It boggles me why the quarians made such a weapon since being that close is absurdly dangerous for them.

Small wonder casters like the pirahna? There's hardly another choice coz the shotguns you listed are virtually useless in the grand scheme of things.

1) The GPS is worth using on many characters. The damage output is good, the weapon is all-range, and it offers 100% stagger (useful for anyone). Guardians are a problem, but that's hardly the issue you make it out to be. I have used it on quite a few characters. The reason I don't use it much today? Piranha, Reegar, Harrier.

2) Yes, it is too heavy for casters. I am not certain how that matters at all unless you think every weapon should be a caster weapon.

3) ... I don't know what game you're playing, but it's not ME3. Enemies don't miss on Gold and Platinum. Engaging opponents at long range is suicide: you can't hit them, but they suffer no penalty. It's always smarter to engage at close range, where you have fewer enemies shooting at you and don't end up missing. The reason you don't use the Reegar on a caster is that it has very little spare ammunition and lacks versatility, so then you have to add a sidearm, which clips your cooldown even further.

4) That's the problem. By and large, it's not casters using the Piranha. The gun is a favorite of Gethfiltrators and Destroyers because (1) it has insane damage output and (2) the class accuracy bonuses remove the weapon's only weakness.

No, I'd rather take something that does more damage, and staggers with my fury, like the falcon, or the acolyte which stuns and probably does more DPS over the disciple..

And yes, the disciple needs a large damage boost to be worth taking for damage. Problem is until it gets that damage, it's useless to me. Other weapons can stagger reliably, and do more damage.

1: I agree, the GPS is nice, but having cover penetration is really important to me. I dunno why I like it so much, but I do. One less advantage the nemy has, I guess.

2: No, not every weapon should be a caster weapon, but not all caster weapons have to be junk in combat either. I know not all caster weapons are, but a lot of the light weight weapons are which frustrates me as it kills my hopes of variety.

3: I do fine at all ranges of combat provided I have a fully automatic weapon that has a modicrum of accuracy, but honestly. Our expriences differ, I guess.
And, yes, that's why i don't use a reegar in a nut shell. Do keep in mind I pretty much exclusively play casters, and my reasons are not something I wanna get into here.

4: I agree. And casters are going to get punished for things like that until the end of time. The pirahna is a strong example as to why casters are hard pressed to have a gun that's decent in multiple facets of combat.
The only way to avert it is to have a weapon that isn't terrible against armor and that isn't one of the greatest weapons out there.
Problem is that means having a weapon out there that's better. Which will get used a lot. Which bioware hates, apparently. Which means it'll get nerfed. Which means there may be another best out there, or the nerf is ineffective. And it goes into an endless cycle.

I'm not saying I disagree with the pirahna nerf. Infact I'm glad they went after the DPS of it. It affects weapon platform classes, too.

What I am saying is that the pirahna's pretty much the only forgiving choice for casters aside from th GPS.
Yeah, the wraith might be good, but it's not forgiving.

Modifié par Rebel_Raven, 21 septembre 2012 - 03:03 .

[Gamemako]

Rebel_Raven wrote...

No, I'd rather take something that does more damage, and staggers with my fury, like the falcon, or the acolyte which stuns and probably does more DPS over the disciple..

And yes, the disciple needs a large damage boost to be worth taking for damage. Problem is until it gets that damage, it's useless to me. Other weapons can stagger reliably, and do more damage.

But the Falcon and GPS are heavy, which is very bad as a power-focused class. The Disciple would have the advantage of being light and offering stagger. Also, the Falcon has AWFUL DPS.

The Acolyte is an amazing gun in general due to its 5x multiplier against shields and barriers.

Rebel_Raven wrote...

1: I agree, the GPS is nice, but having cover penetration is really important to me. I dunno why I like it so much, but I do. One less advantage the nemy has, I guess.

I didn't say you had to like it, it's simply a matter that the gun is useful. That's all that really matters to me.

Rebel_Raven wrote...

2: No, not every weapon should be a caster weapon, but not all caster weapons have to be junk in combat either. I know not all caster weapons are, but a lot of the light weight weapons are which frustrates me as it kills my hopes of variety.

Yes, that is a failure of the current weapon balance. However, the current implementation of the weapon weight system means that there will be some weapons which are not meant to be used on casters, and the Claymore is one of them. You could replace it with, say, the Wraith... if only the Wraith didn't suck.

Rebel_Raven wrote...

3: I do fine at all ranges of combat provided I have a fully automatic weapon that has a modicrum of accuracy, but honestly. Our expriences differ, I guess.
And, yes, that's why i don't use a reegar in a nut shell. Do keep in mind I pretty much exclusively play casters, and my reasons are not something I wanna get into here.

But being a caster doesn't really make a difference. Actually, it gives you even more reason to stay out of long-range situations: you can't afford to take the hits that will come your way in long-range fights. I'm much more likely to engage at longer range on, say, a Destroyer with a Typhoon, who can take a few hits.

Rebel_Raven wrote...

4: I agree. And casters are going to get punished for things like that until the end of time. The pirahna is a strong example as to why casters are hard pressed to have a gun that's decent in multiple facets of combat.
The only way to avert it is to have a weapon that isn't terrible against armor and that isn't one of the greatest weapons out there.
Problem is that means having a weapon out there that's better. Which will get used a lot. Which bioware hates, apparently. Which means it'll get nerfed. Which means there may be another best out there, or the nerf is ineffective. And it goes into an endless cycle.

Fixing the existing guns would solve the problem. I have raged plenty about the inaction on rubbish weapons. You don't need a new gun, you need to make the guns that already exist stop sucking so goddamn much. There's no reason for the Disciple to be worthless. There's no reason that the Tempest and Geth Pulse Rifle should be perpetual jokes. Everyone is going to continue to use the Piranha as long as it puts out 4x the DPS of the GPR. It's just that simple.

Rebel_Raven wrote...

I'm not saying I disagree with the pirahna nerf. Infact I'm glad they went after the DPS of it. It affects weapon platform classes, too.

What I am saying is that the pirahna's pretty much the only forgiving choice for casters aside from th GPS.
Yeah, the wraith might be good, but it's not forgiving.

The Talon is an excellent choice, for starters.

[Cyonan]

Actually Gamemako, the Falcon's weight was reduced. It's 1.0 to the Piranha's 0.9 now.

You still going for the nerf we took to about 6 pages of theorycrafting and discussion?

[Gamemako]

Cyonan wrote...

Actually Gamemako, the Falcon's weight was reduced. It's 1.0 to the Piranha's 0.9 now.

Hah, I sorta stopped playing right about the time of that buff. Whoops!

Cyonan wrote...

You still going for the nerf we took to about 6 pages of theorycrafting and discussion?

Technically, yes, but it would also require a damage buff at this point since it was nerfed below its original damage.

[Rebel_Raven]

[quote]Gamemako wrote...

[quote]Rebel_Raven wrote...

No, I'd rather take something that does more damage, and staggers with my fury, like the falcon, or the acolyte which stuns and probably does more DPS over the disciple..

And yes, the disciple needs a large damage boost to be worth taking for damage. Problem is until it gets that damage, it's useless to me. Other weapons can stagger reliably, and do more damage.[/quote]

But the Falcon and GPS are heavy, which is very bad as a power-focused class. The Disciple would have the advantage of being light and offering stagger. Also, the Falcon has AWFUL DPS.

The Acolyte is an amazing gun in general due to its 5x multiplier against shields and barriers.[/quote]
The falcon probably has better DPS than the disciple, better range, more reliable staggering, and better crowd control. Neither it, or the GPS are -that- heavy. I'll take that cooldown hit if it means I'm not worthless when fighting a banshee with it.

Still, I've staggered with headshots from SMGs aiming down the sights. Due to that, the Tempest, and Locust, thanks to their controllability are my first choices as main weapons. The Hurricane has a bit too much muzzle climb for my likings, and using the recoil means not using heat sink, or HVB. Recoil Gear/consumeables means less focus.

If the Acolyte had more ammo, and a larger clip, I'd be crazy enough to try and use it as a main weapon. Sometimes in a wave I do, temporarily, thanks to it's flashbang like properties, and damage.

Still, sometimes I actually wanna use a shotgun. I'm really frustrated with the small arsenal of weapons that can hurt a boss, yet don't cut deep into my cooldown.

[quote]Gamemako wrote...

[quote]Rebel_Raven wrote...

1: I agree, the GPS is nice, but having cover penetration is really important to me. I dunno why I like it so much, but I do. One less advantage the nemy has, I guess.[/quote]

I didn't say you had to like it, it's simply a matter that the gun is useful. That's all that really matters to me.
[/quote]
I know. I don't argue it's useful! It's one of my fav weapons! But it's one of 2 shotguns useful to a caster that's forgiving (in that it does damage to all enemy types, and has a good rof/ammo capacity).  You said it yourself, it's heavy.

[quote]Gamemako wrote...

[quote]Rebel_Raven wrote...

2: No, not every weapon should be a caster weapon, but not all caster weapons have to be junk in combat either. I know not all caster weapons are, but a lot of the light weight weapons are which frustrates me as it kills my hopes of variety.[/quote]

Yes, that is a failure of the current weapon balance. However, the current implementation of the weapon weight system means that there will be some weapons which are not meant to be used on casters, and the Claymore is one of them. You could replace it with, say, the Wraith... if only the Wraith didn't suck.
[/quote]
I know. I'm perfectly fine with some weapons not being tailored for casters. I get that some weapons aren't tailored for them.

And, yes, the wraith sucks. It's RoF gets me killed, and I'm not a great person for making headshots.

[quote]Gamemako wrote...

[quote]Rebel_Raven wrote...

3: I do fine at all ranges of combat provided I have a fully automatic weapon that has a modicrum of accuracy, but honestly. Our expriences differ, I guess.
And, yes, that's why i don't use a reegar in a nut shell. Do keep in mind I pretty much exclusively play casters, and my reasons are not something I wanna get into here.[/quote]

But being a caster doesn't really make a difference. Actually, it gives you even more reason to stay out of long-range situations: you can't afford to take the hits that will come your way in long-range fights. I'm much more likely to engage at longer range on, say, a Destroyer with a Typhoon, who can take a few hits.
[/quote]
I stay in cover a lot if I can. I don't get hit much unless I'm careless. I have to be careful with low shields, and health. That said, I am comfortable at most any range. 

Being close just means they can melee, or hit me with a flame thrower. Then there's the fact that they might have a buddy near by to shoot me in the back.

If I had, oh, I dunno, a potent, forgiving, crowd control weapon, like a shotgun that has a good rate of fire, and substantial (but not OP) damage potential to all enemy types, I might get more up close and personal.

[quote]Gamemako wrote...

[quote]Rebel_Raven wrote...

4: I agree. And casters are going to get punished for things like that until the end of time. The pirahna is a strong example as to why casters are hard pressed to have a gun that's decent in multiple facets of combat.
The only way to avert it is to have a weapon that isn't terrible against armor and that isn't one of the greatest weapons out there.
Problem is that means having a weapon out there that's better. Which will get used a lot. Which bioware hates, apparently. Which means it'll get nerfed. Which means there may be another best out there, or the nerf is ineffective. And it goes into an endless cycle.[/quote]

Fixing the existing guns would solve the problem. I have raged plenty about the inaction on rubbish weapons. You don't need a new gun, you need to make the guns that already exist stop sucking so goddamn much. There's no reason for the Disciple to be worthless. There's no reason that the Tempest and Geth Pulse Rifle should be perpetual jokes. Everyone is going to continue to use the Piranha as long as it puts out 4x the DPS of the GPR. It's just that simple.
[/quote]
I agree! If they made the scimitar gold viable at level X, for instance, I'd gladly use it!

If the Disciple actually killed people aside from myself in trying to use it as a weapon, I'd use it.

While I agree the GPR is struggling to be effective, I commonly use the Tempest X as a main weapon, and can kill anything I point it at at a better rate than most ARs, and shotguns, and pistols. The Locust is at a similar point.

Those 2 guns really saved the caster arsenal for me.

[quote]Gamemako wrote...

[quote]Rebel_Raven wrote...

I'm not saying I disagree with the pirahna nerf. Infact I'm glad they went after the DPS of it. It affects weapon platform classes, too.

What I am saying is that the pirahna's pretty much the only forgiving choice for casters aside from th GPS.
Yeah, the wraith might be good, but it's not forgiving.[/quote]

The Talon is an excellent choice, for starters.[/quote]

Don't get me wrong, I like the Talon. i don't -love- the talon, but I like it enough to use it. I didn't include it coz this is a thread about the shotgun category.

It's a bit slow, and a bit low in mag/spare ammo for my likings, but the extra damage vs shields (150%) makes up for it enough for me to take it out, and use it now and then.

Modifié par Rebel_Raven, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:53 .

[squidney2k1]

DPS without any major drawbacks (i.e. it's very light).

Just like the GPS, your (Bioware) mistake was making this gun a Rare instead of an Ultra-Rare. Before the Piranha it was GPS spam left and right.

[Robot_94]

if the wraith gets buffed ill start to use that alot more, love it in single player, things the the wraith needs buffed are the weight, in the description it says its lighter than the eviscerator yet at level 10 they both way the same, holds less spare and smaller clip size, same accuracy and fire rate, the only thing the wraith has is its damage

[darkpassenger2342]

[/quote]

3) ... I don't know what game you're playing, but it's not ME3. Enemies don't miss on Gold and Platinum. Engaging opponents at long range is suicide: you can't hit them, but they suffer no penalty. It's always smarter to engage at close range, where you have fewer enemies shooting at you and don't end up missing. The reason you don't use the Reegar on a caster is that it has very little spare ammunition and lacks versatility, so then you have to add a sidearm, which clips your cooldown even further.
[/quote]


this absurd statement is the reason everyone that cant shoot wants to use the pirahna. The pirahna encourages people to play recklessly without consequence, and requires very little strategy while doing so...
run straight to the spawn, blast 4 clips.

"the only effective range in mass effect 3 is cqc"... ridiculous.

these are the same type of players who don't want it "nerfed" because they say the pirahna isnt OP because you have to get close on other threads.

Modifié par darkpassenger2342, 21 septembre 2012 - 05:15 .

[IamDanThaMan]

Robot_94 wrote...

if the wraith gets buffed ill start to use that alot more, love it in single player, things the the wraith needs buffed are the weight, in the description it says its lighter than the eviscerator yet at level 10 they both way the same, holds less spare and smaller clip size, same accuracy and fire rate, the only thing the wraith has is its damage

I agree with this. I have a wrath 7 and I never use it because it is just outclassed by other things for the same purpose. If the Pihranna was a little bit heavier and the wraith was a little bit lighter, I would use the wraith on my casters that I like to put a shotgun on, like my shadow.

Modifié par IamDanThaMan, 21 septembre 2012 - 05:17 .

[Yoshi Fan007]

I use the Piranha for very specific characters (Destroyer primarily) because it can fire rapidly and doesn't do negligible armor damage like the other "automatic" shotguns, the Scimitar and the Reegar. The automatic fire allows me to hit fast-moving targets while its moderate armor damage (with the AP mod) makes it effective on heavier targets as well, especially the Atlas.

Most other times I like using the Claymore (Shadow, Kroguard) or the Reegar (Demolisher, Vorcha).

[Necroticon377]

A combination of many things such as the clip size, spread, and reload time.

With most other shotguns I feel that they do not have enough spread to their shots in combination with too few bullets in their clip. When in shotgun range, it is not always about precision aiming - you often want the spread that I feel only the pirahna gives. I enjoy using the Wraith and the Claymore, but I feel they are weaker than the pirahna because I can quickly spray damage across multiple targets with one clip (or barrage a single powerful enemy). With those 2 shotties I can only hit a single enemy or a few very closely bunched enemies before needing to reload.

The coup de grace is that the reload time on the pirahna is roughly the same (if not faster, I don't know the times offhand) than these other 2. So in addition to being able to hit more enemies in one clip, I can also get that next clip out in roughly the same amount of time as the other shotties.

These three things combined make the pirahna more fun and more powerful than the other two, even if the other 2 have more damage output in theory. In practice the pirahna will always prove more useful when I want a shotgun.

Hope that helps

[DrFace007]

I use it because it has high DPS, kills enemies fast, and is easiest for me to kill more things with than other shotguns. Also the incentive. The goal is to complete a match fast, and with this shotgun, you can kill things very fast.

I think if your goal is to get people to play with variety of shotguns, then instead of modifying gun attributes up/down to encourage certain guns and discourage others, rather look at it from an incentive-system point of view.

Like give users of least used shotguns / weakest shotguns bonus credits for completing the match, using a weaker weapon, etc.

The person probably won't be able to contribute as much, but likely, you will see a variety of "weaker weapons" being used from all 4 players, effectively increasing weapon use variety, and adding to the challenge of the game, both things it appears you are wanting to do...

Either that or give every weapon in the entire game exactly the same DPS / attributes.

EDIT: Adding to derek's damage economy with a twist to illustrate the simple point.

In your analogy, every unique position at work represents a shotgun / weapon, and the salaries of those positions represents the weapon stats (high salary = high stats) and giving every position a raise is equal to giving every weapon a buff (higher stats). makes sense.

The way I say you should consider looking at it is: every unique position at work still represents a shotgun / weapon, and the salaries of those positions still represents the weapon stats. The difference is how we look at the raise. Since in the proposed solution, we are completely removing the "weapon buff/debuff just to equal out weapon use" factor from the equation, we can now represent the salaries as actual [credits per unit of time] representation.

As of right now, the highest paying position (allows highest credits per unit of time on average) seems to be the piranha, and the lowest paying position is... disciple perhaps? this is now a much more accurate representation of how the weapon strengths actually measure up to how fast you can complete a match (get credits) with them.

The proposal is to simply even out the salaries by the means of year end bonuses (bonus credits at end of match) (determining the amount of these bonus credits is completely up to your judgement). In the example where the position representing the disciple pays the lowest, make it the "highest paying bonus" job at your company! do this by giving the "raise / bonus" credits after the match proportional to its place in the gun rank.

For example, lets say the #1 highest paying job was Piranha at $8 / year, and the #2 highest paying job was Claymore at $7 / year  and so on until we get to the second worst paying job of Crusader at $2 / year and the worst paying job of Disciple at $1 / year.

At the end of the year (end of the match), the Piranha job (user with the Piranha shotgun) gets $0 in bonuses, the Claymore job gets $1 in bonuses, the Crusader gets $6 in bonuses, and the Disciple gets a huge $7 in bonuses.

In this way, you still are able to fill all the positions / jobs, including the Disciple and Crusader jobs, because in the end, the pay is going to be the same (although a team with 4 inferior weapons will be getting individual bonus credits for using inferior weapons, that match will take longer than an all-superior weapon team) (once again, it comes down to average math numbers to determine the [credits per unit of time] to determine the bonus credits that should be received).

The pay will even out due to the length of match increases when weaker weapons are used. But this illusion of higher credits bonus will end up in a vareity of weapons being used and an increase in challenge.

As for determining which weapon is ranked where, that can be by DPS or weapon popularity by which weapons get used what percent of the time, etc. (excluding collector rifle)

If using the popularity approach, you will also need to account for weapon rarity in the equation.

Modifié par DrFace007, 21 septembre 2012 - 06:56 .

[ELSQuantum0000]

Five words for my reason: Automatic Frag Cannon, N7 Edition.