129 réponses à ce sujet

[Foolsfolly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Different players do have different experiences. Simple as that.

Yet, here's my problem.  I'll illustrate an example:

Sylvius the Mad and I have totally different experiences playing BioWare games.  I cannot relate to him and his approach at all.  However he's perfectly capable of articulating them to me in a manner I can at least appreciate.  Because his opinions are logically constructed and solid in their basis.  Ultimately we are forced to agree to disagree almost all the time, but it's never because I can't follow along or doubt his own interpretation.

This "DA2 is for babbies" stuff has never been even partially justified to me as anything other than, well, I suppose, confirmation bias based on little more than animations people don't like.

I didn't like DAO or DA2's animations all that much - for different reasons - but they didn't alter my perception of what either game was about.

In my honest opinion there are members of these boards where you have to do a mental checklist before you respond to their post:

1- Does this need to be challenged?
2- Does this need to be challenged by me?
3- Will I get unreasonably upset if they come back with a half-baked argument?

If you still feel strongly for posting then post. I know I've gone ahead with posts that I knew would just continue the argument because no one ever changes their minds online.

Until a few months later when Game X went from being the worst game BioWare's ever done to 'The last good game they'll ever make.'

[Rawgrim]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I never really understand the idea that certain topics specifically are mature or not.

Whenever I see the idea come up I can usually expect to see people list things like rape, incest, torture, and so forth. It seems that people equate taboo with mature. It seems to me that whether or not a subject matter is mature depends more on how it's discussed.

I could have a mature presentation of friendship, and how that pertains to life and what social relationships mean to each other in the world of Thedas.


Or even death. Death never comes up, but for me it was arguably the most maturing moment that had happened in my life when I lost my brother when I was 13. Death happens in spades in video games though, and I wouldn't say it's typically dealt with in a mature fashion (not that that's a bad thing. I just blew up 4 tanks in World of Tanks and it was fun!).  But I certainly see the way that Mother Amell treats the loss of her child and it strikes up empathy in me because I can understand, on some level, how that feels.  The irrational anger and mood swings and all that.  Just as an example.

I think the movie industry is abit to blame here. Subjects that are taboo tend to be excluded from teen friendly movies. Hence it gets associated with maturity, since teens gets "spared" from such topics. In a pg-13 movie you can see a chic get shot in the breast. However, if you add a scene where someone is kissing a breast, it gets an R-rating. Therefore its easy to associate nudity with maturity. The same goes for every other "taboo" subject teen friendly movies deliberatly avoids.

Add the exagerated combat and the cartoonish elves into the mix, and its easy to get the feeling that DA2 is more aimed towards teens than adults. Its more of a way of thinking, really. I am perfectly willing to admit that the whole process of thought has some serious flaws, but its about associating subjects with teen friendly vs aimed for a mature audience.

I hope this makes sense somehow.

[upsettingshorts]

Foolsfolly wrote...

In my honest opinion there are members of these boards where you have to do a mental checklist before you respond to their post:

1- Does this need to be challenged?
2- Does this need to be challenged by me?
3- Will I get unreasonably upset if they come back with a half-baked argument?

If you still feel strongly for posting then post. I know I've gone ahead with posts that I knew would just continue the argument because no one ever changes their minds online.

Until a few months later when Game X went from being the worst game BioWare's ever done to 'The last good game they'll ever make.'

That's good advice, and probably advice I should listen to.  But I know as well as anyone who is familiar enough with my posts to say that I won't be able to help myself.

[Anarya]

I don't really see how DAO is any more or less "mature" or "grimdark" than DA2. I don't think either of them are "grimdark", and I think they're both more or less the same maturity level, with maybe DA2 edging DAO out because it does not have a classic fairytale ending.

I mean, I guess DA2 had a slightly brighter color palette but does that really change the content? The power of perception I guess. Well, perception and art direction.

[Rawgrim]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Different players do have different experiences. Simple as that.

Yet, here's my problem.  I'll illustrate an example:

Sylvius the Mad and I have totally different experiences playing BioWare games.  I cannot relate to him and his approach at all.  However he's perfectly capable of articulating them to me in a manner I can at least appreciate.  Because his opinions are logically constructed and solid in their basis.  Ultimately we are forced to agree to disagree almost all the time, but it's never because I can't follow along or doubt his own interpretation.

This "DA2 is for babbies" stuff has never been even partially justified to me as anything other than, well, I suppose, confirmation bias based on little more than animations people don't like.

I didn't like DAO or DA2's animations all that much - for different reasons - but they didn't alter my perception of what either game was about.

I didn`t say DA2 was a game for babies. I said it felt more aimed at teens. "Felt" being the key word here.

1. the exagerated combat. People leaping around like anime heroes.
2. Clothed sex scenes
3. Cartoonish elves and darkspawn
4. No way to really screw up. The game ends the same way no matter what. In DA:O it can end with the main character dying permanently, for example. Nothing really has consequences in DA2.
5. The colours in the game feels more...happy and cheerful.
6. No real tactics or planning involved. And since you can`t give companions armours or anything, you get rich fast. Don`t have to worry about money either. Feels simplified for a younger audience.


Its stuff like that that made me FEEL as if the game was aimed at a younger audience than DA:O was. Allthough I didn`t think it was a game for babies.

Hope that answers what I mean well enough.

[Darth_Trethon]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I never really understand the idea that certain topics specifically are mature or not.

Whenever I see the idea come up I can usually expect to see people list things like rape, incest, torture, and so forth. It seems that people equate taboo with mature. It seems to me that whether or not a subject matter is mature depends more on how it's discussed.

I could have a mature presentation of friendship, and how that pertains to life and what social relationships mean to each other in the world of Thedas.


Or even death. Death never comes up, but for me it was arguably the most maturing moment that had happened in my life when I lost my brother when I was 13. Death happens in spades in video games though, and I wouldn't say it's typically dealt with in a mature fashion (not that that's a bad thing. I just blew up 4 tanks in World of Tanks and it was fun!).  But I certainly see the way that Mother Amell treats the loss of her child and it strikes up empathy in me because I can understand, on some level, how that feels.  The irrational anger and mood swings and all that.  Just as an example.

All I can really say about BioWare and the M rating is how shocked I am that the company was comp,etely redefined by one false interview with fake "experts" clearly intended to attack and demolish Mass Effect by Fox News. From there everything went backwards into the childish and ridiculous.....clothed "sex" being right at the top of the list.

If I was in the shoes of the decission makers at BioWare and/or EA after that interview I would have simply said: "Ok, sequels need a lot more nudity and sex....let's go with full frontal nudity and interactive sex scenes. We bow to nobody and we do whatever the hell we want, if movies can do it so can we. THIS IS BIOWARE!!!!"

[Foolsfolly]

Anarya wrote...

I don't really see how DAO is any more or less "mature" or "grimdark" than DA2. I don't think either of them are "grimdark", and I think they're both more or less the same maturity level, with maybe DA2 edging DAO out because it does not have a classic fairytale ending.

I mean, I guess DA2 had a slightly brighter color palette but does that really change the content? The power of perception I guess. Well, perception and art direction.

They both had moments. Which is better than pouring it on. Too much is still too much.

As for animations, color palettes, and even certain abilities go I'd think most people could seperate that from the story. I know I do. Besides some of the more 'grimdark' games out there come off as more juvenile than others. In BioWare's own catalogue I point to Jade Empire which is very brightly colored, has very stylized combat styles, and even elements of Chinese flavored steampunk and it was a game that was very mature and all about power and ambition.

As for DA2 anytime a story gets a discussion about public safety vs personal freedom going, regardless of your opinions, then it's not for babies. And neither was DA:O. In fact, I see absolutely no reason to believe DA3 will suddenly devolve into childish fare either.

[Foolsfolly]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I never really understand the idea that certain topics specifically are mature or not.

Whenever I see the idea come up I can usually expect to see people list things like rape, incest, torture, and so forth. It seems that people equate taboo with mature. It seems to me that whether or not a subject matter is mature depends more on how it's discussed.

I could have a mature presentation of friendship, and how that pertains to life and what social relationships mean to each other in the world of Thedas.


Or even death. Death never comes up, but for me it was arguably the most maturing moment that had happened in my life when I lost my brother when I was 13. Death happens in spades in video games though, and I wouldn't say it's typically dealt with in a mature fashion (not that that's a bad thing. I just blew up 4 tanks in World of Tanks and it was fun!).  But I certainly see the way that Mother Amell treats the loss of her child and it strikes up empathy in me because I can understand, on some level, how that feels.  The irrational anger and mood swings and all that.  Just as an example.

All I can really say about BioWare and the M rating is how shocked I am that the company was comp,etely redefined by one false interview with fake "experts" clearly intended to attack and demolish Mass Effect by Fox News. From there everything went backwards into the childish and ridiculous.....clothed "sex" being right at the top of the list.

If I was in the shoes of the decission makers at BioWare and/or EA after that interview I would have simply said: "Ok, sequels need a lot more nudity and sex....let's go with full frontal nudity and interactive sex scenes. We bow to nobody and we do whatever the hell we want, if movies can do it so can we. THIS IS BIOWARE!!!!"

DA:O had underware during sex. But other than that the other games have had clothed characters initate sex but fading to black over the actual deed. I don't remember seeing Fenris in his armor taking Hawke from behind while elven music plays over the top of it all.

Although I'd have probably pissed myself laughing if it had happened.

[Atalanta]

The "childish" feel of my DA2 playthrough had a lot to do with the protagonist delivering almost every line with amused sarcasm, regardless of the situation. That was 100% my own fault for choosing the silly dialogue options, though.

[Anarya]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Anarya wrote...

I don't really see how DAO is any more or less "mature" or "grimdark" than DA2. I don't think either of them are "grimdark", and I think they're both more or less the same maturity level, with maybe DA2 edging DAO out because it does not have a classic fairytale ending.

I mean, I guess DA2 had a slightly brighter color palette but does that really change the content? The power of perception I guess. Well, perception and art direction.

They both had moments. Which is better than pouring it on. Too much is still too much.

As for animations, color palettes, and even certain abilities go I'd think most people could seperate that from the story. I know I do. Besides some of the more 'grimdark' games out there come off as more juvenile than others. In BioWare's own catalogue I point to Jade Empire which is very brightly colored, has very stylized combat styles, and even elements of Chinese flavored steampunk and it was a game that was very mature and all about power and ambition.

As for DA2 anytime a story gets a discussion about public safety vs personal freedom going, regardless of your opinions, then it's not for babies. And neither was DA:O. In fact, I see absolutely no reason to believe DA3 will suddenly devolve into childish fare either.

I would hope most people are able to separate visual elements from thematic ones, but whenever I see threads like this here, it's full of people citing visual cues as evidence of maturity or immaturity. Either that or "adult" content like boobs and gore, etc., which can probably be blamed on the ratings system and the terms it uses for its ratings. 

[Foolsfolly]

Anarya wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Anarya wrote...

I don't really see how DAO is any more or less "mature" or "grimdark" than DA2. I don't think either of them are "grimdark", and I think they're both more or less the same maturity level, with maybe DA2 edging DAO out because it does not have a classic fairytale ending.

I mean, I guess DA2 had a slightly brighter color palette but does that really change the content? The power of perception I guess. Well, perception and art direction.

They both had moments. Which is better than pouring it on. Too much is still too much.

As for animations, color palettes, and even certain abilities go I'd think most people could seperate that from the story. I know I do. Besides some of the more 'grimdark' games out there come off as more juvenile than others. In BioWare's own catalogue I point to Jade Empire which is very brightly colored, has very stylized combat styles, and even elements of Chinese flavored steampunk and it was a game that was very mature and all about power and ambition.

As for DA2 anytime a story gets a discussion about public safety vs personal freedom going, regardless of your opinions, then it's not for babies. And neither was DA:O. In fact, I see absolutely no reason to believe DA3 will suddenly devolve into childish fare either.

I would hope most people are able to separate visual elements from thematic ones, but whenever I see threads like this here, it's full of people citing visual cues as evidence of maturity or immaturity. Either that or "adult" content like boobs and gore, etc., which can probably be blamed on the ratings system and the terms it uses for its ratings. 

It's honestly crazy how much people want nudity in these games. I'm not going to go insane if I see a bare ass or ****** in a video game. But neither am I going to demand it. And regardless of its presence it doesn't make something mature.

But a lot of times here you hear the same old arguement "It's rated M. Show me boobies!" Which belittles the entire franchise and BioWare as a company, which has rather good track record of being mature. Even in their all ages games like Knights of the Old Republic which is a damn sight more mature in its handling or race, power, and the Jedi than most of the movies.

[Direwolf0294]

DA2 actually went there quite a bit, but the way it was presented wasn't in a mature fashion which caused it to be either laughable or not even noticeable. For example, the over the top enemies exploding gore.

[Crowlover]

lv12medic wrote...

There are three guaranteed types of threads whenever a new Bioware game is announced:

1) Romance Threads
2) Multiplayer want/hate threads
3) M rating should push the ESRB to the brink of almost issuing an AO rating threads

I love a predictable universe.

Edit: Oh yeah and post EA acquisition there is a fourth one

4) How EA is ruining everything everywhere threads

It's funny because it's true. 

[Anarya]

Foolsfolly wrote...

It's honestly crazy how much people want nudity in these games. I'm not going to go insane if I see a bare ass or ****** in a video game. But neither am I going to demand it. And regardless of its presence it doesn't make something mature.

But a lot of times here you hear the same old arguement "It's rated M. Show me boobies!" Which belittles the entire franchise and BioWare as a company, which has rather good track record of being mature. Even in their all ages games like Knights of the Old Republic which is a damn sight more mature in its handling or race, power, and the Jedi than most of the movies.

I, for one, legitimately do not care how much nudity DA3 has, as long as it's not thrown in gratuitously in a way that's offensively objectifying. I mean, I'm an adult. I consume media that has nudity. It really has no bearing on how much I'll like the media in question. I *love* maturity in my narrative-focused games, but yeah, what I want when I say I want a "mature" game is difficult or thought-provoking themes that are handled in a mature way. 

But yeah, totally agree. And conflating boobies with maturity drives me crazy.

[Dave of Canada]

 I'd love to have the same feels in DA3 that I do with TWD game.

[Anarya]

Dave of Canada wrote...

 I'd love to have the same feels in DA3 that I do with TWD game.

What's TWD?

[Dave of Canada]

Anarya wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

 I'd love to have the same feels in DA3 that I do with TWD game.

What's TWD?

The Walking Dead.

[Anarya]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

 I'd love to have the same feels in DA3 that I do with TWD game.

What's TWD?

The Walking Dead.

Ohh. I actually have been playing those as they come out, and I think they're really well done, but I can't say I've had strong feelings while playing them. 

I guess what resonates with people is highly idiosyncratic. 

[BrookerT]

 IMO Dragon Age 2 is Darker than Dragon Age Origins.

For me its all about the difference between High Fantasy and Low Fantasy.

High fantasy is a world where things are fantastical. It a world where the problems people face have little grounding in reality. World that are High Fantasy are Lord of the Rings, Terry Pratchett's Colour of Magic. 

Low Fantasy is a world where the fantastical elements take a back seat to "real world" issues, which are much more liekly to have grounding in reality. Worlds that are low fantasy are A Game of Thrones, Terry Pratchett's Guards! Guards!.

While there are elemts of Low Fantasy in Dragon Age Origns (Dwarven Caste system and Elvish repression), it is a world primarly concerned with a fantastical threat. The Dark Spawn have little grounding in reality, and as a result, an issue we will never truly fear. While they may be scary, we know that no matter how scary they are, they are an abstaract evil, one we will never have to face.

This is where, IMO, Dragon Age 2 becomes darker. Of course Dragon Age 2 has elemts of high fantasy, like the red lyrium, Merril's eluvian, Justice/Anders, the problems the characters face are real issues. Ethnic oppression, Genocide, Paedohilia (either this or madness), Religious intolerance and Refugees. All these issues are factors which have a very real bearing in reality. These are issues we all truly fear. Maybe not all of them, but these have basis in the real world, and we lose the confort of going to sleep at night saying "no matter how scared I am, it's not real".

Dragon Age Origins, has plenty of low fantasy elements, and this is where the game truly shines. The Broodmoter is an abstarct threat, while scary, it can never trult harm us. But the Ethnic supression of the Elves is a real, (and briliiantly portrayed) threat. While not elves, it has happened before, the ethnic containing, and sunbsiquent genocide. But these elements are hidden behind a fantastical veil. They take a back seat to the problem of the Drakspawn.

In Dragon Age 2 however, there is no veil (well there is but, you know). Every issue is front and centre. The Darkspawn are not important in the story. Even though the darkspawn create a mass exodus, instead of focussing on the darkspawn, the game focuses on the refugees. With Anders/Justice, instead of focusing on the fantastical element of their realtionship, the game focuses on the very real internal argument over right and wrong, "One man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter". Its these issues which make a gam dark and mature. The knowledge that the issues we tackled, and how they affected us will be carried with us into the real world when we stop playing.

[AlienWolf728]

I like how the all the DA3 threads have the same people saying the same things. Atakuma talks about how amazing she thinks Skyrim is, Upsettingshorts argues with everyone, LTD doesn't want nudity/sex and Maria Caliban wants to see full frontal nudity. Also Logan Cloud is Logan Cloud.

[Mistress9Nine]

You don't wanna go there, Bioware.  Sandra will f*** you up!

Modifié par Mistress9Nine, 20 septembre 2012 - 08:26 .