129 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

lv12medic wrote...

There are three guaranteed types of threads whenever a new Bioware game is announced:

1) Romance Threads
2) Multiplayer want/hate threads
3) M rating should push the ESRB to the brink of almost issuing an AO rating threads

I love a predictable universe.

Edit: Oh yeah and post EA acquisition there is a fourth one

4) How EA is ruining everything everywhere threads

Oh, I'd gladly heard all the people starting and spamming such threads into a rocket and shoot it into the Sun.

The whold would tank me.

[Wynne]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I never really understand the idea that certain topics specifically are mature or not.

Whenever I see the idea come up I can usually expect to see people list things like rape, incest, torture, and so forth. It seems that people equate taboo with mature. It seems to me that whether or not a subject matter is mature depends more on how it's discussed.

I could have a mature presentation of friendship, and how that pertains to life and what social relationships mean to each other in the world of Thedas.

I wouldn't say that specific topics by nature are mature or not. But I would say "don't show the clothes in a love scene." 

I think it's more mature to film two characters from the neck or shoulders up, or from behind and from the waist up, than to show them wearing underwear while still panting heavily but not sweating. Hell, a nearly-pitch-dark scene with both characters silhouetted would be sexier. If something is going to be implied, then I want to be able to suspend my disbelief that it actually happened. Otherwise, all the romantic drama/sexiness is lost, and it just seems like silly kid stuff to me. 

Rawgrim wrote...

Blackrising wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Full frontal male nudity.

Some people might get the willies from seeing that.

Yes, we know you find males unattractive. ;b
Same could be said for any kind of female nudity though...

That was a pun....a willy? As in penis? Full frontal nudity gives you willies?

Abit too quick on the sexicismhomophobia trigger there, mate.

 If it makes you feel better, I got it the first time, and giggled. This thread is rich with double entendres, and I like it. 

Really, those could work in a DA title, too. Most of the time, kids don't see talk about bananas as being about anything other than yellow tropical fruit.

Modifié par Wynne, 20 septembre 2012 - 09:54 .

[Wulfram]

I'm pretty sure DA2 was intended to be dark. Kirkwall was deliberately portrayed as a pretty horrible place, Hawke fails at more or less everything of note, a large chunk of the game was basically devoted to making us feel like the mass slaughter of innocents could be justified - and ultimately you can't stop that from happening even if you aren't convinced.

But it kind of works against itself when it results in you not really caring what happens to Kirkwall and the people in it, and thus not being all that fussed by all the bad things going on.

[Wowlock]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I never really understand the idea that certain topics specifically are mature or not.

Whenever I see the idea come up I can usually expect to see people list things like rape, incest, torture, and so forth. It seems that people equate taboo with mature. It seems to me that whether or not a subject matter is mature depends more on how it's discussed.

I could have a mature presentation of friendship, and how that pertains to life and what social relationships mean to each other in the world of Thedas.


Or even death. Death never comes up, but for me it was arguably the most maturing moment that had happened in my life when I lost my brother when I was 13. Death happens in spades in video games though, and I wouldn't say it's typically dealt with in a mature fashion (not that that's a bad thing. I just blew up 4 tanks in World of Tanks and it was fun!).  But I certainly see the way that Mother Amell treats the loss of her child and it strikes up empathy in me because I can understand, on some level, how that feels.  The irrational anger and mood swings and all that.  Just as an example.

I don't think those depravities are included in M fashion 'fan-wishlist' but more like how the BW titles recently become more and more ''toned-down''. After the first Mass Effect media ''incident'' of 5 sec ''booty shot '' , the games that come after tend to take the 'safety net ' even further.  I kinda feels like we are being threated with Kiddie gloves. Just thinking of the 'Shover with undies ! '' fiasco of ME3 and so forth, makes me kinda wonder '' What is the point of putting these in if you are making it ridiculous like this '' Be creative about it. Nobody would be asking for full-frontal nudity or so but at least make the effort to hide it creatively.  An example of change I saw was the preview for new DA games where in DA:O the trailer kinda showed the ''alleged sex scenes'' to be without a garment while in the game , it is quite cloaked. Or the DA romance Screenshots where Hawke and love interest seemed to have no garment ( again ) but in game, fully dressed.  Again, I am not asking a full on , steamy moments...All I am saying it if you are putting a tag on to your game, take advantage of that. Use it to it's full potential. It worked wonders for Witcher 2 as it was not threating their audience as they are sheltered children. Irony is that in a game where you murder thousands of people, 5 sec bare-skin moment was the most ''contrevorsial''... It boggles the mind.

As for Death, it has become such a part of Every game we play, I rarely see the ''power'' of it other than some games actually put an effort to it. I mean it is trivial to kill off bandits you see on your way in any game nowadays and you don't feel any remorse afterwards. But there are such moments or full games that focus on that and shows us ''killing'' is not as fun as we know. A recent example would be the Spec Ops : The line. It was a big suprise for me as it actually felt bad to kill those nameless NPCs. Which made me realize that if you want , you can make your game actually play on emotions that you want players to feel.

DA2 had that strange vibe of ''Nameless people's deaths ,not a care given. A named Character's death...feast on emotion ! ''. It kinda felt hypocritical to me as It felt so dreadfull when *spoiler* Hawke lost his mother to the manaical mage. But after that, I returned to the world and slay 100 bandits, mages , thugs and so forth with not a care in the world. So it is about making people care about those moments and the issue of 'Death' become a ''core gameplay'' rather than an actual emotional point unless , as I pointed out , the game focus on it as a big aspect ( Walking Dead is another example )

So what I will say in closing, if you are intending to take a certain Tag for your game... use it to the fullest. Don't be afraid to express the 'moment' itself and be afraid of the 'Fury of Close-minded' community. And don't think of the extremes either like 'Torture' and other depravities as I don't think they are THAT popular to be in the top 5 wish-list.  All I can say is, if you want to create a moment, whether it is emotional or romantic...just make it proper and let it feel natural rather than ''censored by community ! ''. The real world is bad enough as it is to hide anything in a virtual one...

Modifié par Wowlock, 20 septembre 2012 - 10:08 .

[snackrat]

Wynne wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I never really understand the idea that certain topics specifically are mature or not.

Whenever I see the idea come up I can usually expect to see people list things like rape, incest, torture, and so forth. It seems that people equate taboo with mature. It seems to me that whether or not a subject matter is mature depends more on how it's discussed.

I could have a mature presentation of friendship, and how that pertains to life and what social relationships mean to each other in the world of Thedas.

I wouldn't say that specific topics by nature are mature or not. But I would say "don't show the clothes in a love scene." 

I think it's more mature to film two characters from the neck or shoulders up, or from behind and from the waist up, than to show them wearing underwear while still panting heavily but not sweating. Hell, a nearly-pitch-dark scene with both characters silhouetted would be sexier. If something is going to be implied, then I want to be able to suspend my disbelief that it actually happened. Otherwise, all the romantic drama/sexiness is lost, and it just seems like silly kid stuff to me. 

Quoted For Truth.

The moment of supposed to be tender and romantic (or fiery and passionate, depending on romanced character) - not awkward like some High School sex-ed tape.
Maybe DA3's preorder bonus should be a banana and a box of certain wrapped items... 

[Killer3000ad]

With the good doctors gone from EA, i am afraid that Bioware might well and truly get executive-decisioned into making a safe-bet game designed to appeal to the masses rather the RPG crowd. That also means pg-13 sadly.

[Skydive84]

I agree with OP.
M should mean M..

[SerenityRebirth]

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

Nah, I could care less about boobs. My point is the world isn't as dark as it should be, as it claims to be. I mean hell, in DAO you had the option of killing a possessed kid. I never really believed that the world and the conflict was as bad as they claimed it was in DA2. I also remember reading an article recently about how God of War developers were going to take a step back from stuff like violence against women, because of the sensitive world today. People are afraid to go to these places these days for fear of being in the spotlight of some angry mob arguing about rights. The few people that do go there, in a good way, are now just said to be looking for shock value. Heavy Rain is a game that went "there" with It's story and characters and look how well that paid off.

I have to agree with you. Dragon Age Origins was my first foray into a dark fantasy. The story was not what I was used to - being that I played many Japanese RPG's prior to it. Slowly but surely, this changed. Dragon Age became a game I loved and played over and over and will continue to play again soon. What I thought was so great about the first one was the sense darkness all around. Everything seemed to morally marginal. This only made just moments of light that much more appealing. I refer to the moment in which you romance Alistair. He comments on how he has found a rose (you and the literally the rose) in such a dark and ugly place. I found that to be such a powerful moment. That moment was only powerful given that the dark fantasy element was embraced. I have now become more embracing of darker tales thanks to Dragon Age Origins.  

[Renmiri1]

Please just don't confuse emo nihilism with maturity. Mass Effect 3 endings already did that nad were awfully cheesy. Killing everyone is not mature, is a copout.

[upsettingshorts]

Rawgrim wrote...

1. the exagerated combat. People leaping around like anime heroes.

Hence my comment about animations.

Rawgrim wrote... 

2. Clothed sex scenes

DA2 didn't have sex scenes.  It had about-to-have-sex scenes.  

DAO had sex scenes, and they were awful.  Like... among my Top 10 list of worst things BioWare has ever done awful.  Hardly "adult."  Scenes that were meant to convey some mix of passion, love, romance, etc just made a lot of people adults laugh out loud at everything.  And the music, my god, the music.

Rawgrim wrote... 

3. Cartoonish elves and darkspawn

...no more "cartoonish" than DAO's.  People just don't like the design.  That's fine. There's nothing inherently less "realistic" about either of them except perhaps the new elves neck, which Im guessing is not working as designed.

Good luck trying to prove in a remotely convincing way that new elves and new darkspawn (are meant to) appeal more to teens and kids.  

Rawgrim wrote...  

4. No way to really screw up. The game ends the same way no matter what. In DA:O it can end with the main character dying permanently, for example. Nothing really has consequences in DA2.

WHAT?!  How could anyone miss the point of two games so thoroughly.

If the Warden dies in DAO it is in an act of selfless, heroic sacrifice to save a nation and potentially its future king from having to do the same, or doing a dubious ritual with an ambiguously-motivated apostate.  That is hardly failure, it's an unequivocal success. 

In DA2 you can screw up if you are roleplaying a character that was trying to keep the peace.  This is exactly my experience, and as a result DA2 is the first game I've ever played (that I can recall) that allowed me to both 1) "Beat" the game, 2) Fail utterly.  I believe it deserves credit for this.

Rawgrim wrote...   

5. The colours in the game feels more...happy and cheerful.

Working as designed.  However, the point Matt Goldman made when talking about the new art style was you do not have to have dark environments to convey dark themes.  Putting the bad thing in the dark place is... kind of basic, one might even say... immature.

Rawgrim wrote...    

6. No real tactics or planning involved. And since you can`t give companions armours or anything, you get rich fast. Don`t have to worry about money either. Feels simplified for a younger audience.

Bad encounter design is not an intended push towards teens and kids, it was just bad encounter design.

Don't tell me about getting rich fast when the comparison is DAO, a game where you can quite easily craft and sell potions by the truckload.  

Yeah, customization was reduced though, but I have a hard time buying that this is somehow a ploy to entice a younger audience.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 septembre 2012 - 04:37 .

[Gabey5]

Mature can mean different things. Stark Trek TNg for instance was a mature show. The moral dilemmas, scientific thinking and existentialism. Things that are taboo like rape and murder for instance also fall under the mature category. IF you are going to create a fictional world be it in a movie, book, or game adds realism.Few games venture in to the later example though which is why i think people request it more often.

[TheWout]

Just re-use some topless chick-artwork this time and we'll forgive you

[Rawgrim]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

1. the exagerated combat. People leaping around like anime heroes.

Hence my comment about animations.

Rawgrim wrote... 

2. Clothed sex scenes

DA2 didn't have sex scenes.  It had about-to-have-sex scenes.  

DAO had sex scenes, and they were awful.  Like... among my Top 10 list of worst things BioWare has ever done awful.  Hardly "adult."  Scenes that were meant to convey some mix of passion, love, romance, etc just made a lot of people adults laugh out loud at everything.  And the music, my god, the music.

Rawgrim wrote... 

3. Cartoonish elves and darkspawn

...no more "cartoonish" than DAO's.  People just don't like the design.  That's fine. There's nothing inherently less "realistic" about either of them except perhaps the new elves neck, which Im guessing is not working as designed.

Good luck trying to prove in a remotely convincing way that new elves and new darkspawn (are meant to) appeal more to teens and kids.  

Rawgrim wrote...  

4. No way to really screw up. The game ends the same way no matter what. In DA:O it can end with the main character dying permanently, for example. Nothing really has consequences in DA2.

WHAT?!  How could anyone miss the point of two games so thoroughly.

If the Warden dies in DAO it is in an act of selfless, heroic sacrifice to save a nation and potentially its future king from having to do the same, or doing a dubious ritual with an ambiguously-motivated apostate.  That is hardly failure, it's an unequivocal success. 

In DA2 you can screw up if you are roleplaying a character that was trying to keep the peace.  This is exactly my experience, and as a result DA2 is the first game I've ever played (that I can recall) that allowed me to both 1) "Beat" the game, 2) Fail utterly.  I believe it deserves credit for this.

Rawgrim wrote...   

5. The colours in the game feels more...happy and cheerful.

Working as designed.  However, the point Matt Goldman made when talking about the new art style was you do not have to have dark environments to convey dark themes.  Putting the bad thing in the dark place is... kind of basic, one might even say... immature.

Rawgrim wrote...    

6. No real tactics or planning involved. And since you can`t give companions armours or anything, you get rich fast. Don`t have to worry about money either. Feels simplified for a younger audience.

Bad encounter design is not an intended push towards teens and kids, it was just bad encounter design.

Don't tell me about getting rich fast when the comparison is DAO, a game where you can quite easily craft and sell potions by the truckload.  

Yeah, customization was reduced though, but I have a hard time buying that this is somehow a ploy to entice a younger audience.  

Bioware did say there were going to streamline the game to reach a broader audience, when they were making DA2.

Still. I just listed up stuff that made me feel like I was playing a game intended for a younger audience, thats all. I wasn t going for solid logic to hammer into everyone elses mind to convince them one way or another.

[SafetyShattered]

After reading your first post I was like going to comment on this being another one of "those" posts. But after reading some of your others I know what your saying. I'd like for DA3 to go in a darker direction as well.

[BrookerT]

bhsup wrote...

Dazaster Dellus wrote...

I must admit that DA2 is a lot more timid than DAO in. I just want to say that Dragon Age is M for a reason. Don't be afraid to use that M. I'm not saying abuse it and make everything overly ridiculous. But being timid in certain areas is also bad too.

   Timid??  I certainly don't recall anyone in DA:O talking about winning if Aveline ever sticks her thumb up...heh, yeah okay, probably not acceptable in the forum.

Anyway, I found the sexual banter between companions in DA2 far more lively than DA:O.

At this point, I think people are willing to lie to themselves to critiscize Dragon Age 2, There was NOTHING sexualy timid about that game. Any game which explores sexual liberation as an actual issue cannot be called timid.

[BrookerT]

Nyoka wrote...

We killed a child in DA:O. I think the OP wants to eat one now.

Is he the Baby Eating Bishop of Bath and Wells?. ( cookie for the reference) 

[Dasher1010]

IMO, I'd rather have serious themes than watch as boobs get chopped off and people start eating each other alive.

[Linksys17]

OP marketing games to kids is much more profitable and parents dont want
Adult themes in said games EA knows where the money is

[NKKKK]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I never really understand the idea that certain topics specifically are mature or not.

Whenever I see the idea come up I can usually expect to see people list things like rape, incest, torture, and so forth. It seems that people equate taboo with mature. It seems to me that whether or not a subject matter is mature depends more on how it's discussed.

I could have a mature presentation of friendship, and how that pertains to life and what social relationships mean to each other in the world of Thedas.


Or even death. Death never comes up, but for me it was arguably the most maturing moment that had happened in my life when I lost my brother when I was 13. Death happens in spades in video games though, and I wouldn't say it's typically dealt with in a mature fashion (not that that's a bad thing. I just blew up 4 tanks in World of Tanks and it was fun!).  But I certainly see the way that Mother Amell treats the loss of her child and it strikes up empathy in me because I can understand, on some level, how that feels.  The irrational anger and mood swings and all that.  Just as an example.

Death is cheapened by our culture, other things are not, going there is going where society hasn't cheapened those taboo things.

I'm all for meaningful death, but your company and many others haven't done a good job of putting emotion into it latetly.

[Ninja Stan]

This argument comes up a lot whenever the issue of "maturity" or "M rating" comes up. Some people are under the misapprehension that Mature needs gore, nudity, and rampant profanity in order to fit the rating. This is SO not the case. The bloody violence alone in an M-rated game is usually enough to get that rating. Everything else is a content advisory.

BioWare has proven time and again that they are not "afraid to "go there"" when it comes to mature content; however, the posts that pop up in the forums after release also prove that there are sections of BioWare's online community that just want boobs and sex and aren't interested in "maturity" in the least. Once those people can admit those wants, as well as discuss the other aspects of "maturity" that they don't necessarily like--gay romances, exploration of character and feelings, political intrigue, character death--without freaking out or hating, only then do I think that the "BioWare games need more maturity" argument will ever have merit.

TL;DR: Maturity does not equal boobs. If you can't even discuss maturity without being immature, you're kinda proving you're not "mature" enough to handle Mature concepts.

[Dasher1010]

Ninja Stan wrote...

This argument comes up a lot whenever the issue of "maturity" or "M rating" comes up. Some people are under the misapprehension that Mature needs gore, nudity, and rampant profanity in order to fit the rating. This is SO not the case. The bloody violence alone in an M-rated game is usually enough to get that rating. Everything else is a content advisory.

BioWare has proven time and again that they are not "afraid to "go there"" when it comes to mature content; however, the posts that pop up in the forums after release also prove that there are sections of BioWare's online community that just want boobs and sex and aren't interested in "maturity" in the least. Once those people can admit those wants, as well as discuss the other aspects of "maturity" that they don't necessarily like--gay romances, exploration of character and feelings, political intrigue, character death--without freaking out or hating, only then do I think that the "BioWare games need more maturity" argument will ever have merit.

TL;DR: Maturity does not equal boobs. If you can't even discuss maturity without being immature, you're kinda proving you're not "mature" enough to handle Mature concepts.

Honestly, I'd rather see DA2 take a more grounded stance towards things. Keep sex intimate and not referenced every 10 seconds and save gore for cutscenes while the actual combat is mostly bloodless. I'm incredibly worried about DA going in the same direction as Saints Row.

[BrookerT]

Nyoka wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

We killed a child in DA:O. I think the OP wants to eat one now.

Is he the Baby Eating Bishop of Bath and Wells?. ( cookie for the reference) 

Now that I think of it, I killed two children actually.

And I kicked puppies in Jade Empire.

I have an obsession with kicking every chicken in every Fable game.

Modifié par BrookerT, 20 septembre 2012 - 07:27 .