28 réponses à ce sujet

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Instead of making two seperate threads, I would like to discuss these two topics in one thread. I'll start with prophcecy in the Dragon Age universe. A reply from Mr. David Gaider regarding these two subjects would be greatly appreciated.

Are both the Warden and Hawke part of a prophecy in the Dragon Age universe? I often get the feeling (especially with DA2) that events are unfolding in a way that would cause global war and mass destruction. Also, Flemeth and Morrigan both declare that "change is coming to the world". Sounds like prophecy to me.

Onto the next subject...

Men and women in Ferelden are generally considered equals. But what about in other lands? When I talked to one of the Orlesian women in the Denerim market, it didn't sound like the men treated women with much respect in that country and are perhaps even looked down upon as second-class.

Thoughts?

[Plaintiff]

I'm under the impression that Flemeth can forsee events, but that's not the same thing as "prophecy". "Prophecy" implies fate, and as Flemeth herself says, she herself has never been able to figure out if events are pre-determined or simply a matter of chance. I'd prefer it if the writers left this question unanswered, because I think prophecy is a pretty lame plot device.

As for gender equality, it seems like a Thedas-wide thing. The dominant religion is a gynocentric matriarchy. The legend of Aveline originates from Orlais, and their current monarch is a woman.

If you're referring to the conversation I think you are, that woman was assaulted by a chevalier, basically a knight, and many of them have ties to the Orlesian nobility. I think it was more a matter of rank, rather than women being less valued generally.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm under the impression that Flemeth can forsee events, but that's not the same thing as "prophecy". "Prophecy" implies fate, and as Flemeth herself says, she herself has never been able to figure out if events are pre-determined or simply a matter of chance. I'd prefer it if the writers left this question unanswered, because I think prophecy is a pretty lame plot device.

As for gender equality, it seems like a Thedas-wide thing. The dominant religion is a gynocentric matriarchy. The legend of Aveline originates from Orlais, and their current monarch is a woman.

If you're referring to the conversation I think you are, that woman was assaulted by a chevalier, basically a knight, and many of them have ties to the Orlesian nobility. I think it was more a matter of rank, rather than women being less valued generally.

Well, I think it all depends on what kind of prophecy we're talking about. For instance, the Dragonborn in Skyrim is part of a prophecy, but he or she is still allowed to choose how things turn out. In other words, you aren't glued down to a certain path. The Elder Scrolls just tell of the return of the Dragonborn and Alduin.

Yes, that is the conversation I'm talking about with the Orlesian women in the market. If it is a matter of rank, so be it. I just thought it might have been more than that. And what about women in Qunari lands? They don't fall in line with the Chantry.

[KiwiQuiche]

Don't really think it's a prophecy, just a fact of life; all age ends and I think this current Chantry ruled age is going down.

As Plaintiff said, I think it's more so rank, then actually being unequal, since there seems to be no difference in ruling or being a warrior. After all there was a crapton of kickass females in DAO and 2 and in Orlais the current ruler is a queen and we all know the story of Aveline. Besides, I think most Orlesians are a bunch whiny fashion ****s, regardless of gender lol

[SpunkyMonkey]

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm under the impression that Flemeth can forsee events, but that's not the same thing as "prophecy". "Prophecy" implies fate, and as Flemeth herself says, she herself has never been able to figure out if events are pre-determined or simply a matter of chance. I'd prefer it if the writers left this question unanswered, because I think prophecy is a pretty lame plot device.

As for gender equality, it seems like a Thedas-wide thing. The dominant religion is a gynocentric matriarchy. The legend of Aveline originates from Orlais, and their current monarch is a woman.

If you're referring to the conversation I think you are, that woman was assaulted by a chevalier, basically a knight, and many of them have ties to the Orlesian nobility. I think it was more a matter of rank, rather than women being less valued generally.

This.

I would like to see some more sexism in the game, just because I think it's make for some interesting plots/quests if that element could be added.

[KiwiQuiche]

Also the "change is coming to the world" thing- the Chantry has ruled for what, nearly 900 years? That's a crap load of time, and now the mages and Templars have given the Divine a big FU, the Tevinter Imperium is most likely gonna have a go at everyone, as are the Qunari (as they only got driven back due to mages last time they tried to kick the sh!t out of Thedas) so damn straight there is gonna be huge change the world.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 20 septembre 2012 - 09:29 .

[Plaintiff]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm under the impression that Flemeth can forsee events, but that's not the same thing as "prophecy". "Prophecy" implies fate, and as Flemeth herself says, she herself has never been able to figure out if events are pre-determined or simply a matter of chance. I'd prefer it if the writers left this question unanswered, because I think prophecy is a pretty lame plot device.

As for gender equality, it seems like a Thedas-wide thing. The dominant religion is a gynocentric matriarchy. The legend of Aveline originates from Orlais, and their current monarch is a woman.

If you're referring to the conversation I think you are, that woman was assaulted by a chevalier, basically a knight, and many of them have ties to the Orlesian nobility. I think it was more a matter of rank, rather than women being less valued generally.

Well, I think it all depends on what kind of prophecy we're talking about. For instance, the Dragonborn in Skyrim is part of a prophecy, but he or she is still allowed to choose how things turn out. In other words, you aren't glued down to a certain path. The Elder Scrolls just tell of the return of the Dragonborn and Alduin.

Yes, that is the conversation I'm talking about with the Orlesian women in the market. If it is a matter of rank, so be it. I just thought it might have been more than that. And what about women in Qunari lands? They don't fall in line with the Chantry.

Well, Qunari women are a different matter entirely. We don't know very much about them at all, and have never met one, except Tallis, I guess, but she's not exactly ordinary.

I don't think females are more or less "valued". Under the Qun, all people are of equal value, assuming you accept their definition of 'value', which is determined by how well you serve the Qun. However, they are limited to certain roles. They can't serve in the military, for example, which is why all the Kossith we've seen so far have been males. Females can acheive leadership positions in the other two main areas of Qun society, though, and females can still serve in something of a "combat" capacity, as spies and assassins, like Tallis.

Just for the record, I don't agree with the Qunari position on gender roles, or with any other aspect of their philosophy.

[nightcobra]

"One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide.
When he rises, everyone will see."

according to the leaks, while unconfirmed it is interesting to see this:

"A portal between the worlds unleashes hords of demons in the land, civil
wars rip apart nations and the corruption is limitless. Someone is
behind the shadows, drawing the threads which destroy the world. Time
has come for the Inquisition."

[nightcobra]

Plaintiff wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm under the impression that Flemeth can forsee events, but that's not the same thing as "prophecy". "Prophecy" implies fate, and as Flemeth herself says, she herself has never been able to figure out if events are pre-determined or simply a matter of chance. I'd prefer it if the writers left this question unanswered, because I think prophecy is a pretty lame plot device.

As for gender equality, it seems like a Thedas-wide thing. The dominant religion is a gynocentric matriarchy. The legend of Aveline originates from Orlais, and their current monarch is a woman.

If you're referring to the conversation I think you are, that woman was assaulted by a chevalier, basically a knight, and many of them have ties to the Orlesian nobility. I think it was more a matter of rank, rather than women being less valued generally.

Well, I think it all depends on what kind of prophecy we're talking about. For instance, the Dragonborn in Skyrim is part of a prophecy, but he or she is still allowed to choose how things turn out. In other words, you aren't glued down to a certain path. The Elder Scrolls just tell of the return of the Dragonborn and Alduin.

Yes, that is the conversation I'm talking about with the Orlesian women in the market. If it is a matter of rank, so be it. I just thought it might have been more than that. And what about women in Qunari lands? They don't fall in line with the Chantry.

Well, Qunari women are a different matter entirely. We don't know very much about them at all, and have never met one, except Tallis, I guess, but she's not exactly ordinary.

I don't think females are more or less "valued". Under the Qun, all people are of equal value, assuming you accept their definition of 'value', which is determined by how well you serve the Qun. However, they are limited to certain roles. They can't serve in the military, for example, which is why all the Kossith we've seen so far have been males. Females can acheive leadership positions in the other two main areas of Qun society, though, and females can still serve in something of a "combat" capacity, as spies and assassins, like Tallis.

Just for the record, I don't agree with the Qunari position on gender roles, or with any other aspect of their philosophy.

as far as Qunari goes as far as i understand, women are individuals that are better suited to a few kinds of activities like diplomacy or art while men are individuals that are better suited to be soldiers for example.
in the eyes of the Qun, a female soldier is a man by their standards and treated as a man. 

[whykikyouwhy]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

"One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide.
When he rises, everyone will see."

according to the leaks, while unconfirmed it is interesting to see this:

"A portal between the worlds unleashes hords of demons in the land, civil
wars rip apart nations and the corruption is limitless. Someone is
behind the shadows, drawing the threads which destroy the world. Time
has come for the Inquisition."

And then there is statue!Eleni Zinovia's seemingly prophetic "The prison is breached. I see the encroaching darkness. The... the shadow will consume all..." - which may be related to Sandal's prophecy, or may be something completely different.

Gaider did say that Zinovia would be seen again, though who is to say in what capacity.

As for the OP's question about the the role of the Warden and Hawke - I think that heroes are part of the prophecies/foresight, that their actions may usher in the change and perhaps determine its course, and that their hand in the knocking down of the figurative dominoes may be happenstance or intentional. Individuals will step up to the challenges before them, and those with that special something, those that emerge as heroes, wind up being those that help influence events.

Change, be it that seen by Flemeth, Sandal, or Zinovia, may not be a bad thing in the long run - it could be a time of great strife that shakes society and the land, to then settle into a new age of peace. Though sure, it could be utter chaos and destruction. Change is inevitable though, in all life, so really it boils down to how the populace will handle and face off with it. 

[Biotic_Warlock]

Flemeth

/thread

About sexual equality:

Ferelden: Mostly equal, but there are many less female soldiers than males (and almost no female soldiers during larger battles - i.e. ostragar in DAO)

Orlais - i'm kinda thinking Medieval France...

Tevinter - I wouldn't be suprised if there was a lot of sexism... i don't think women can become mages there.

Antiva - Very rare to see a female assassin (bar that one mage during the Zevran Ambush).

Qunari: I think Sten pretty much explains it all.

Modifié par Biotic_Warlock, 20 septembre 2012 - 10:19 .

[Wulfram]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

Orlais - i'm kinda thinking Medieval France...

Not really.  Female Chevaliers are known and accepted, thanks to Ser Aveline, though still somewhat rare.  And they've got a female monarch, which wasn't allowed in historical France.

The story of the Orlesian woman in the market is about class, not sex - commoners have little or no rights in Orlais, at least not when they come into conflict with the nobility.

Of course, if we're talking about gender inequality then we should mention that men are barred from rising high in the Chantry.  Except in Tevinter

Tevinter - I wouldn't be suprised if there was a lot of sexism... i don't think women can become mages there.

No, we know about some female mages in Tevinter.  Fenris kills one of them.

Modifié par Wulfram, 20 septembre 2012 - 10:30 .

[Biotic_Warlock]

Wulfram wrote...

Of course, if we're talking about gender inequality then we should mention that men are barred from rising high in the Chantry.

Female Templars seem rare, maybe men end up becoming templars Some sort of crazy made up maker nonsense about men being templars and women being priests
Kinda glad Meredith was Knight-Captain now.
Also those 2 female templars in the Gallows in DA2 i think.

Modifié par Biotic_Warlock, 20 septembre 2012 - 10:31 .

[bleetman]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

Tevinter - I wouldn't be suprised if there was a lot of sexism... i don't think women can become mages there.

Wat.

[Reaverwind]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Also the "change is coming to the world" thing- the Chantry has ruled for what, nearly 900 years? That's a crap load of time, and now the mages and Templars have given the Divine a big FU, the Tevinter Imperium is most likely gonna have a go at everyone, as are the Qunari (as they only got driven back due to mages last time they tried to kick the sh!t out of Thedas) so damn straight there is gonna be huge change the world.

The Chantry was doomed to break up from the start - simply because it entangled itself too closely with the Orlesian Empire.

[Sylvanpyxie]

Men and women in Ferelden are generally considered equals.

Although you were never truly put down for playing a woman in Dragon Age Origins, I always felt in the Human Noble Origin that "better" was expected of you. Perhaps it was just a Mother pining for a "true daughter" but I always felt like my Warrior was shunned ever so slightly in that Origin by Eleanor, not to mention Howe's obvious disdain for a Warrior Woman in the opening.

Despite the fact that the Father, Bryce, is obviously proud of his "pup", the fact that there were specific lines from Rendon Howe and Eleanor Cousland that spoke disdainfully or negatively towards the Noble's ability as a swords-woman made me feel as if my Warrior's choice was frowned upon as a whole.

Perhaps they were just particularly old fashioned views from Howe and Mother Dearest, but it still felt like, as a woman, she was expected to play the dutiful noble daughter by both of them. So I never felt, from that Origin story, that noble women were considered particularly "equal".

Maybe that's just me, but the old fashioned view of those two characters permanently marred my opinion on the equality of Women in Fereldan.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:21 .

[Biotic_Warlock]

bleetman wrote...

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

Tevinter - I wouldn't be suprised if there was a lot of sexism... i don't think women can become mages there.

Wat.

Forgot her

[bleetman]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

Despite the fact that the Father, Bryce, is obviously proud of his "pup", the fact that there were specific lines from Rendon Howe and Eleanor Cousland that spoke disdainfully or negatively towards the Noble's ability as a swords-woman made me feel as if my Warrior's choice was frowned upon as a whole.

Yep.

"Well well, Bryce Cousland's little spitfire! All grown up and still playing the man."

Redcliffe's pretty indicitative too, I'd assume. I mean, aside from that tool of a mayor who greets a female character with "so you're the Grey Warden are you? Didn't think they made women Grey Wardens", who's locked up in the Chantry? The young, the old, and the women. The men are pretty much all outside fighting, regardless of how inept they are.

Modifié par bleetman, 20 septembre 2012 - 12:36 .

[berelinde]

This thread reminds me of a store I visited once in Massachusetts. Half furniture store, half IMAX theater. An odd combination.

If past games are anything to go on, players who choose to play female characters will not find that their characters are nerfed due to gender assumptions. It is possible that female characters will have to endure petty annoyances like Meeran's elevator eyes, but that's life. It's possible that male characters are also objectified from time to time, but it didn't stand out in my memory.

Sexism in Thedosian society exists, as others have already pointed out, but it is what it is.

[hexaligned]

I got the feeling that Flemeth was just... ancient and prescient, rather than unfaltering prophetic. There are certain underlying themes to humans that drive us to do what we do.  With enough experience I imagine it's possible to perceive causality in a broader cyclic way, that might seem to be prophesy to the random monkeys she interacts with.

To the second topic, I think men and women have equal rights under the law in the nations we have seen. In as much as there is law. It seems like they are still very much Might makes Right societies, however. Where you only have what right you can take, but I could make that argument about any nation in our own world (I'll refrain).

Modifié par relhart, 20 septembre 2012 - 02:26 .

[SerTabris]

bleetman wrote...

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

Despite the fact that the Father, Bryce, is obviously proud of his "pup", the fact that there were specific lines from Rendon Howe and Eleanor Cousland that spoke disdainfully or negatively towards the Noble's ability as a swords-woman made me feel as if my Warrior's choice was frowned upon as a whole.

Yep.

"Well well, Bryce Cousland's little spitfire! All grown up and still playing the man."

Redcliffe's pretty indicitative too, I'd assume. I mean, aside from that tool of a mayor who greets a female character with "so you're the Grey Warden are you? Didn't think they made women Grey Wardens", who's locked up in the Chantry? The young, the old, and the women. The men are pretty much all outside fighting, regardless of how inept they are.

I've had a sort of feeling that Ostagar, Redcliffe, and some of the origins were made earlier in the development cycle, and they became more progressive later on. To me, Ostagar and Redcliffe feel different from the rest of the game (nobody says this kind of stuff in main-quest Denerim, as far as I recall, and they have Ser Cauthrien). Not sure quite why I feel this way, but I'm on my third time through DA:O now and I've started to guess this. (I'm playing HN this time - my other playthroughs were female elves, where people seem less sexist outside the origin because their racism supercedes it in the dialogue.)

[Mims]

I always got the impression that men and women were essentially equal, but given its still a medieval-esque society, they would prefer women to be child rearers than warriors. This would especially be true in smaller communities.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

About prophecy, it certainly seems a lot of it is floating around, yes. At least, in the background. The statue in the mage origin in DA:O and Sandal's breif (and creepy) bout of clarity in DA2 both come to mind there. Events definitely seem to be building toward some overarching storyline that we haven't quite caught a straight look at, yet.

Men and women in Ferelden are generally considered equals. But what about in other lands? When I talked to one of the Orlesian women in the Denerim market, it didn't sound like the men treated women with much respect in that country and are perhaps even looked down upon as second-class.

Thoughts?

My canon warden is a female dwarf noble. Even in her origin story, there were some dwarf NPCs who said things like "Well, its interesting to see Orzammar have a woman Commander." And his tone clearly said it was anything, but interesting to him.   I am guessing that, if she wasn't his princess at the time (and hadn't just trounced everyone to win her own Proving >_>), he'd have been openly more hostile about it. Other female dwarves, one fighter in particular, praised my girl for being an inspiration for her.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they are 2nd class, but I took those things as evidence that women in Orzammar may have to fight a bit harder than men to get their due respect in some arenas.

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

Tevinter - I wouldn't be suprised if there was a lot of sexism... i don't think women can become mages there.

I assume you mean magisters, here? Or at least 'mage" in terms of a social position. If so: Hadriana. And Varania, too, assuming Denarius was actually going to keep his promise to her.

Modifié par AlleluiaElizabeth, 20 septembre 2012 - 08:09 .

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

EDIT: Double post that I can apparently not delete. Sorry. New to actually posting stuff. >_>

Modifié par AlleluiaElizabeth, 20 septembre 2012 - 08:10 .

[Gabey5]

Noble women and female knights are considered mostly equal in Ferelden. We don't have much experience with the 'normal' women in Ferelden. It was extremely rare to have females in the Templars and in the armed forces[ Ser Cautherin] as well. Female mages fall under the same category. So in short you are equal as a female in Ferelden and Kirkwall if you have power.

Modifié par Gabey5, 20 septembre 2012 - 08:11 .