114 réponses à ce sujet

[Kidd]

Aren't all of us talking past each others' heads atm? Some posts seem to talk about finishers the way they happened in DAO and some seem to talk about the cinematic finishers á la Legacy/MotA/archdemon.

[megamacka]

I loved the finishing moves in DA:O. Id very much like to see them return.

[Yrkoon]

 Me too.  They were the one thing that made the otherwise average  combat FUN to engage in. On my intolerable-corner-cutting scale, I rank their removal up there with the scrapping of the tactical camera, and the ability to talk to your companions any time. (ie. high)

Modifié par Yrkoon, 26 septembre 2012 - 03:34 .

[Palipride47]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Aren't all of us talking past each others' heads atm? Some posts seem to talk about finishers the way they happened in DAO and some seem to talk about the cinematic finishers á la Legacy/MotA/archdemon.

I think we are discussing the merits of Orgins-style vs. DA2 style. At least, that is what I was discussing (the reasons I prefer DA2 style)

[goofyomnivore]

My problem with the Origins style is it didn't account for what type of weapon you are using. Stabbing your 2h Mace through a dragon's skull was kind of ridiculous, plus there weren't that many animations anyways.


Dragon Age 2's exploding corpses wasn't any better. But some of the things they did in cutscenes with the bosses was alright.

Modifié par strive, 26 septembre 2012 - 03:42 .

[megamacka]

DA2 combat was way over the top and over exaggerated. Id like to see something in between.
And no '' spawning out of nowhere '' survival game plz. You basically killed armies in a matter of seconds lol they were everywhere.

[formaristarry]

The cinematic finishers for bosses and such are not as entertaining as being surprised when the pc does a finishing move on an enemy in the middle of a battle.

[coles4971]

I'd prefer the finishers (except super epic ones, like the archdemon) to be part of the gameplay like in DA:O. I found it kinda weird in DA2 where you kill the ogre, do the execution and it's all cutscene because I know that animation was in DA:O normally, and it was far more epic seeing my character execute some dude by themselves rather than it all being ... staged?

[Palipride47]

I didn't like the over-the-top Japanese hack-and-slash combat with more exploding parts than a Michael Bay movie, I just think the cut scenes were kinder to my crappy GPU and didn't mean my healer was getting mowed down while I was showing off my mad skillz.

And cutscenes would only be for the really important things (Meredith, Corephyus, Orsino) instead of just some random not-a-high dragon. 

And they have to be good. The Orsino one was awful, imho.

Modifié par Palipride47, 26 septembre 2012 - 04:00 .

[John Epler]

Yrkoon wrote...

Yeah, spend less money please. We'd much rather see the same perfectly animated slash, slash, poke poke, over and over and over and over for 50 hours,  Instead of, you know, neat  rare stuff to look forward to that keeps combat feeling fresh and visceral, like chopping an enemy's head off every once in a while, or thrusting your sword into their stomach and then pulling it out as they fall to the ground, lifeless.

Just keep it nice and cheap, in the DA2 way.   Give us more of those  exploding lego pieces for our dagger-wielding rogues.

<sigh>

DA2 v2.0, here we come!

In an ideal world, we could put absolutely everything that could make the game absolutely completely perfect into the game. The world we live in and work in, however, means that games have budgets and constraints, both in terms of money and in terms of time.

If you want to bemoan this fact, that's certainly your prerogative, but if you're not willing to frame the discussion in terms of reality and resources which are not unlimited, well, I don't really see how I'm going to be able to engage with you.

There are many useful discussions happening in this thread in regards to gameplay finishers versus cutscene finishers, as well as when the appropriate time to use these finishers is, but if you'd rather jump onto a single point regarding the realities of game development so you can hold it dramatically in the air and shout 'LOOK, THEY'RE NOT LISTENING TO US, WE'RE JUST GETTING DA2!' I suppose there's not much I can say to you.

Modifié par John Epler, 26 septembre 2012 - 10:07 .

[hoorayforicecream]

lx_theo wrote...

What if it was a combination of the two? The finisher starts in gameplay, then the camera changes (still looking like a gameplay camera) and slowly becomes more like a cutscene after a couple more camera changes in the finisher?

This is something much much more difficult than it seems. I've done work on this sort of system before as an engineer. I've written such a system for a AAA game, and it took me over a year to get it into a shippable state.

There's a reason that cinematic designers use cutscenes instead of gameplay. One of the most important reasons is because they can control exactly where the players in the scene are. In DA2, the finishing moves were only played in a single location, with a single enemy in a fixed location. If you make it dynamic, you open a whole set of worms, because it then has to handle the environment and any other actors who might be in the area.

Here's a short list of situations that need to be handled gracefully. The ones marked with a * will cause your game to fail certification from Sony, Microsoft, and/or Nintendo.

• Other entity (monster, companion, etc.) steps between the camera and the characters as the camera is zooming in, obscuring the view. Do you clip through them? This is heavily discouraged.
• *Object (tree, bush, rock, wagon, etc.) obscures the view while zooming in. Clipping through it with the camera is heavily discouraged.
• *Level geometry (wall, floor, etc.) obscures the view. Clipping through this cannot be allowed.
• Camera's new location places the camera someplace that violates any of the above situations as well.
• Difference in height causes finishing move animation to get all screwy (Alistair is fighting an ogre on a slope. This can cause him to float above the ground for the animation)
• *The position you're standing in will not allow for any camera locations relative to the action to frame it properly. E.g. Alistair is backed into a corner, the Ogre is in front of him. The camera cannot go back, or it will violate the 'no clipping level geometry' rule.
• There isn't enough room to perform the finishing move animation. The ogre's death animation can end up clipping through geometry, or objects. Or Alistair might jump through a solid object to perform it.
• There is room to perform it, but the system does not provide a good opportunity to frame the shot properly (e.g. the ogre is in a doorway, Alistair tries to cut its head off, the walls and crossbar above the doorway cut off any view you might have of the action)
• When forcing the animations to occur, who lines up to whom? Synchronized animations like finishing moves require both the victim and the killer to be lined up perfectly, or else they won't look right (much like grabbing someone by the wrist... if your orientation is off by even a little bit, the whole thing will look wrong).

You could come up with solutions to all of these situations, but honestly it isn't easy and it takes a significant amount of time to engineer such things (not to mention going back and forth between the animators, cinematic designers, and engineering to make sure that the data for all of this is being built within the constraints). This sort of system is incredibly involved, and unless you ended up using it all the time, there are much higher priority things to spend precious programming zots on.

[thats1evildude]

Palipride47 wrote...

And they have to be good. The Orsino one was awful, imho.

What? The cutscene kill of Orsino was the best one in the whole game.

If you can't see what's awesome about tearing off the head of a giant flesh golem and stomping it to death, then … well, I don't know what to say.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 26 septembre 2012 - 11:15 .

[Goldark]

John Epler wrote...

I should also add that, if we do choose to do finishing moves again, we would probably only do it for the absolute last creature of a group or for very specific situations where it makes sense. Having your character dramatically stab an ogre in the face was swell, right up until all of his buddies made mincemeat of your party because the guy you rely on to tank was busy being dramatic.

I definitely understand this viewpoint, where some people would get frustrated at not being able to control one of their characters while they were busy mauling an enemy.  I think it would be interesting if you guys added gameplay related reasons that would offset that drawback.

Maybe personal or party-wide buffs that would activate on the execution of a finishing move.  You can even implement it in a particular class' skill tree.  For example, maybe the Champion would have a passive that would give party-wide health/mana regen when performing a finisher.  While a Berserker would have a more personalized buff that would give them double attack speed following a finisher.  I don't know, just shooting out ideas.

Your idea about making finishers work only on the last remaining enemy is the other route to go.  If you do it this way, it would be cool if it worked on our party as well.  If you are down to your last party member...better watch out, cause now its open season on you, lol.  This would give your animation team some fun times of thinking what kind of crazy ways an ogre or dragon could finish off a pesky human.  Just a thought.

Bottom line, though:  I preferred the cool looking animations from DA:O as opposed to the body explosions from DA2.  Either of the above two methods (mid combat, but with buffs or last enemy standing) could work.  Here's hoping you guys can do it.  Take care.

[cindercatz]

John Epler wrote...

Now! That being said, we have a goal of replacing a lot of our more common animations with new ones, and mocapping some new basic gestures.

Good news! I was hoping to see something like that (mocapped basic animations that repeat for like walking back and forth, better hand gestures and posture shifts, etc.) Very cool.

John Epler wrote...

I should also add that, if we do choose to do finishing moves again, we would probably only do it for the absolute last creature of a group or for very specific situations where it makes sense. Having your character dramatically stab an ogre in the face was swell, right up until all of his buddies made mincemeat of your party because the guy you rely on to tank was busy being dramatic.

I reeallly hope we do get finishers back for basic combat. I was hoping we could even have a quickie finisher or three for each weapon (like a quick head split or neck slit, the stab and slice decapitation, roundhouse slashes, etc.) that would trigger at least like half the time you kill anything with a regular attack, and then a couple more elaborate finishers for final enemy kills. Any chance of that?

randomlycosmic wrote...

I honestly can't think of a single instance in which my party died because my tank was being dramatic. And it was really cool to be the one dealing out the finishing moves. I hope to see them return, but if not, I guess you don't always get what you want.

Same here. I've got six playthroughs plus all the dlc, etc., and being tied up in a finishing move was never once an issue. Quick point, you can always cycle off your finishing character to another and keep fighting, aiding your mage, whatever. I usually cycle to the mage if they're surrounded and get them out of harm's way anyway. Set your AI to defend itself and avoid close combat if they're not cqc capable, and it should usually give you plenty of time to react to anything. Also, save often.

I'd much rather have a couple of quick finishers that cycle through contextually for every regular attack kill in the game, and like I asked, a special couple for last enemy kills that take a little longer. I don't know what people are talking about with the slowdown. For me, it just added oomph, a visceral bit of adrenaline.

Honestly, when you're in a real fight, time kind of seems to pause throughout, because you've got all that adrenaline going and your brain has to process what's going on and make snap decisions. I feel a little bit of that every time I see one of the DA:O finishers. They're very satisfying.

The only real slowdown I found problematic was just how slow two handers were in general, but their finishers were actually quicker than their basic combat skills, seemed to me, so still not an issue.

Modifié par cindercatz, 27 septembre 2012 - 01:04 .

[Yrkoon]

John Epler wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Yeah, spend less money please. We'd much rather see the same perfectly animated slash, slash, poke poke, over and over and over and over for 50 hours,  Instead of, you know, neat  rare stuff to look forward to that keeps combat feeling fresh and visceral, like chopping an enemy's head off every once in a while, or thrusting your sword into their stomach and then pulling it out as they fall to the ground, lifeless.

Just keep it nice and cheap, in the DA2 way.   Give us more of those  exploding lego pieces for our dagger-wielding rogues.

<sigh>

DA2 v2.0, here we come!

In an ideal world, we could put absolutely everything that could make the game absolutely completely perfect into the game. The world we live in and work in, however, means that games have budgets and constraints, both in terms of money and in terms of time.

If you want to bemoan this fact, that's certainly your prerogative, but if you're not willing to frame the discussion in terms of reality and resources which are not unlimited, well, I don't really see how I'm going to be able to engage with you.

There are many useful discussions happening in this thread in regards to gameplay finishers versus cutscene finishers, as well as when the appropriate time to use these finishers is, but if you'd rather jump onto a single point regarding the realities of game development so you can hold it dramatically in the air and shout 'LOOK, THEY'RE NOT LISTENING TO US, WE'RE JUST GETTING DA2!' I suppose there's not much I can say to you.

  There isn't much that can be said, no.   Well, at least until the time comes where you can show us something you've actually added to the game, that wasn't in DA2.

I totally understand  cost/budget limitations.  But, just how  much are you guys willing to cut from the game in order to deliver that perfect cinematic experience?   Don't you think  enough of the basic gameplay has already been removed, here? 

[Mike_Neel]

I HATE HATE in combat finishers. They slow things down, they allow the enemy to (usually) take pot shots at you, and in the least your dude is busy showing off to no one in particular while the rest of your party is busy trying to hold their own. I hated that ogre finishing move just because of the slow motion. Same thing with the Fallout NV kills. About 20 mins in the game you look through the menus trying to find if you can turn them off because oh here we go slow motion. Never mind you are in the middle of a hectic fight. That's just annoying to me.

But I LOVE LOVE cutscene finishers. Nothing like raising the fires on the high dragon or jumping on his neck with your daggers. In fact, I would love to see more variety in cut scene executions. Too often did DAII rely on the all powerful murder knife. Lets see each class handle a few situations differently. Lets get some mage gore explosions, or maybe a mind wipe and just have their eyes roll back and a bloody nose. Maybe a rogue could use a murder knife, or get the perfect arrow shot. A warrior could go for a no nonsense gut slash or neck decapitation. It doesn't necessarily have to be flashy and epic, leave that for bosses and mandatory characters the game sends you to. Just something with variety.

[Yrkoon]

cindercatz wrote...
Same here. I've got six playthroughs plus all the dlc, etc., and being tied up in a finishing move was never once an issue. Quick point, you can always cycle off your finishing character to another and keep fighting, aiding your mage, whatever. I usually cycle to the mage if they're surrounded and get them out of harm's way anyway. Set your AI to defend itself and avoid close combat if they're not cqc capable, and it should usually give you plenty of time to react to anything. Also, save often.

This, plus the whole argument  of "oh no! slo-mo!  My squishies are gonna Die!" is an absurd red herring anyway.

DA:O did not have a bajillion long finishers.  it had  *2* that could occur in the middle of combat:  2)An Ogre kill, and 2) a dragon kill.  And the Dragon kill always resulted in the END of the combat encounter, so there was no risk whatsoever of  the player getting locked in the combat and thus unable to 'protect' anyone.  

The rest of the finishers were as quick or *quicker* than  the regular talents you activated.  Decapitations?  instant. coup de grace swings?  Instant.  Sword-to-stomach-then-pull-out?  Faster than shield bash.   The rogue's 1-2-3 finisher?   Instant.  etc.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 27 septembre 2012 - 02:07 .

[John Epler]

Yrkoon wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Yeah, spend less money please. We'd much rather see the same perfectly animated slash, slash, poke poke, over and over and over and over for 50 hours,  Instead of, you know, neat  rare stuff to look forward to that keeps combat feeling fresh and visceral, like chopping an enemy's head off every once in a while, or thrusting your sword into their stomach and then pulling it out as they fall to the ground, lifeless.

Just keep it nice and cheap, in the DA2 way.   Give us more of those  exploding lego pieces for our dagger-wielding rogues.

<sigh>

DA2 v2.0, here we come!

In an ideal world, we could put absolutely everything that could make the game absolutely completely perfect into the game. The world we live in and work in, however, means that games have budgets and constraints, both in terms of money and in terms of time.

If you want to bemoan this fact, that's certainly your prerogative, but if you're not willing to frame the discussion in terms of reality and resources which are not unlimited, well, I don't really see how I'm going to be able to engage with you.

There are many useful discussions happening in this thread in regards to gameplay finishers versus cutscene finishers, as well as when the appropriate time to use these finishers is, but if you'd rather jump onto a single point regarding the realities of game development so you can hold it dramatically in the air and shout 'LOOK, THEY'RE NOT LISTENING TO US, WE'RE JUST GETTING DA2!' I suppose there's not much I can say to you.

  There isn't much that can be said, no.   Well, at least until the time comes where you can show us something you've actually added to the game, that wasn't in DA2.

I totally understand  cost/budget limitations.  But, just how  much are you guys willing to cut from the game in order to deliver that perfect cinematic experience?   Don't you think  enough of the basic gameplay has already been removed, here? 

I'm confused. Are you suggesting that 'killing blows' are anything other than cinematic? They serve no gameplay purpose, they aren't controlled or initiated by the player, they don't advance the plot - all they really are is eye candy to say 'look how awesome your character is!'. Literally the only difference between that and a cutscene is that we only take away control of a single character and it's usually poorly framed.

If you want to use us saying 'well, cinematic killing blows are very expensive and they pull you out of gameplay - those are marks against it, as much as they are pretty neat' as ammunition for your anti-cinematic crusade, I suppose I can't prevent you from doing so. But you seem to be barking up the wrong tree entirely.

[Sylvianus]

So, maybe no finishing moves either ? * sigh *

[cindercatz]

..a quick little followup..

By contextual, I meant for instance, the character would have maybe two quick frontal finishers, and then if you attack from the left side, maybe a neck stab, from the right side a rib stab, from the back a blade run through, etc. Very quick moves that allow the characters to remain in their general postion on the synched animation. I'm hoping basic combat can be very synched up, even if you have a character simultaneously parrying and dodging three or four enemies at once, things like that. Something along the lines of Assassin's Creed or Arkham Asylum/City as far as the animation synching goes, though not as elaborate.

Modifié par cindercatz, 27 septembre 2012 - 01:12 .

[John Epler]

Sylvianus wrote...

So, maybe no finishing moves either ? * sigh *

Me pointing out the costs associated with finishing moves is not me saying 'HAHA SUCKERS NO FINISHING MOVES FOR YOU', it's attempting to give folks all the relevant background information so, whatever our eventual decision is (and I really have no idea, as this falls under the auspice of combat), you'll have some background as to why we arrived at that particular decision.

Do I like finishing moves? Yes, I do - they're neat, and they add a little extra to the game. Do I know the costs associated with them? Yes, I do - they're expensive, particularly if you want them to sync up and look good (see - the invisible ogre problem). Do I have anything to do with the decision to include them or not? I don't - but, you know, if you'd like to argue that every time we bring up the costs associated with any feature request or content request we're clearly sacrificing everything to turn the game into an on-rails cinematic masterpiece, like Yrkoon, that is entirely up to you.

Modifié par John Epler, 27 septembre 2012 - 01:15 .

[slimgrin]

TW2, one of my favorite RPG's, has finishers. They're cool the first time and that's it. I hate them now, with a passion. DA:O did it right. The finishers are very rare, they don't interupt combat, and they're done with the in-game camera. That is the only way finshers should be implemented.

Gameplay>eye candy.

Modifié par slimgrin, 27 septembre 2012 - 01:23 .

[SlottsMachine]

*likes* John Epler

[Maria Caliban]

**deleted**

slimgrin wrote...

TW2, one of my favorite RPG's, has finishers. They're cool the first time and that's it. I hate them now, with a passion. DA:O did it right. The finishers are very rare, they don't interupt combat, and they're done with the in-game camera. That is the only way finshers should be implemented.

Gameplay>eye candy.

Finishers not interrupting combat was bad. What should have been a cool visual reward became a slo-mo stun-lock. And no, it wasn't that bad, but it was just frustrating enough that I couldn't enjoy myself.

The finisher needs to be on the last/only critter or the rest of the scene needs to pause while it happens.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 27 septembre 2012 - 01:29 .