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[Volus Warlord]

iakus wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Bioware does not believe in them.

Although a "Red Wedding" mission has enormous potential to be awesome. 

Care to mention anything specific?

[Iakus]

Volus Warlord wrote...

iakus wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Bioware does not believe in them.

Although a "Red Wedding" mission has enormous potential to be awesome. 

Care to mention anything specific?

Umm, all of it? 

[Palipride47]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

Palipride47 wrote...

I would not like a wedding option, especially a Skyrim wedding option (basically a fetch quest where you throw an amulet at someone and say, "we're married now")

Bioware already has dysfunctional romance, we don't need dysfunctional marriage and dysfunctional divorce.

I wouldn't want a quest where I have to run over to a magistrate and settle an estate, custody and visitation schedules between a future viscountess and her crazed apostate former lover who blew up a Chantry.

You're working too hard.

Sorry, I have an overactive imagination....I should write a fanfic!

I think the point I wanted to make was that  Skyrim is great for the "open world" aspect, not for storyline or character development (especially character dynamics,  especially the uniquely screwy Bioware dynamics)

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

 Look, people are always complaining hwo shallow romances are in games.  "x number of conversations and awkward love scene" sound familiar?

So what's wrong with adding some new/different material tied to the romance?  Including the possibility of a wedding?  Stuff that adds a level of immersion to the game, seperates it further from the standard dungeon crawler?

Romances are already optional content.  What's wrong with exploring new ways of presenting them?

Yeah, but I don't really think x number of conversations + awkward love scene + marriage to really be adding a new level of immersion. If anything, it feels like an additional excuse to keep reminding the player of how awesome we are: stop the bad guy, get the girl, etc. It's already symptomatic of why I consider some Obsidian storylines/character interactions to be a bit more complex, with the approach to Visas/Handmaiden reinforcing the overarching narrative (the PC's ability to form bonds easily).

To put it another way: if romances are going to be expanded, I don't see weddings as being the means with which to do it. I'd prefer Bioware to consider other efforts (Ex: KotOR 2) or re-examine their approach to cheating mechanics (Ex: Choosing Miranda over Ashley). Hell, even the Jacob/Thane romances would be a good approach, if it was given sufficient resources.

Of course, my ideal scenario is for Bioware to de-emphasize romances altogether. If the resources which went into LIs could be put into achieving a level of reactivity similar to Alpha Protocol, I would trade it in a heart beat.

Modifié par Il Divo, 21 septembre 2012 - 03:38 .

[Heimdall]

Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

 Look, people are always complaining hwo shallow romances are in games.  "x number of conversations and awkward love scene" sound familiar?

So what's wrong with adding some new/different material tied to the romance?  Including the possibility of a wedding?  Stuff that adds a level of immersion to the game, seperates it further from the standard dungeon crawler?

Romances are already optional content.  What's wrong with exploring new ways of presenting them?

Yeah, but I don't really think x number of conversations + awkward love scene + marriage to really be adding a new level of immersion. If anything, it feels like an additional excuse to keep reminding the player of how awesome we are: stop the bad guy, get the girl, etc. It's already symptomatic of why I consider some Obsidian storylines/character interactions to be a bit more complex, with the approach to Visas/Handmaiden reinforcing the overarching narrative (the PC's ability to form bonds easily).

To put it another way: if romances are going to be expanded, I don't see weddings as being the means with which to do it. I'd prefer Bioware to consider other efforts (Ex: KotOR 2) or re-examine their approach to cheating mechanics (Ex: Choosing Miranda over Ashley). Hell, even the Jacob/Thane romances would be a good approach, if it was given sufficient resources.

Of course, my ideal scenario is for Bioware to de-emphasize romances altogether. If the resources which went into LIs could be put into achieving a level of reactivity similar to Alpha Protocol, I would trade it in a heart beat.

Well, so would I, but I don't think the resources that go into romance are really substantive enough to make that big a difference 

[Il Divo]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Well, so would I, but I don't think the resources that go into romance are really substantive enough to make that big a difference 

Fair point. This would be alot easier if we had a receipt or something telling us how much any particular feature costs to implement, as well as our total funds. But sadly I don't think Bioware's going to let us in on the nitty-gritty details.

[BENIIICHAT]

I think Wedding should be  one of various choice for Great Romance Scene/moment (Beyond Sex scene of course) like Companion A great moment is Wedding / Companion B is a Big date in Beautiful/romantic place (depend on what kind of this companion) / etc.,

[blueumi]

a wedding would be good I always wished that Alistairs wedding had been in the game thank god for mods

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

 Look, people are always complaining hwo shallow romances are in games.  "x number of conversations and awkward love scene" sound familiar?

So what's wrong with adding some new/different material tied to the romance?  Including the possibility of a wedding?  Stuff that adds a level of immersion to the game, seperates it further from the standard dungeon crawler?

Romances are already optional content.  What's wrong with exploring new ways of presenting them?

Yeah, but I don't really think x number of conversations + awkward love scene + marriage to really be adding a new level of immersion. If anything, it feels like an additional excuse to keep reminding the player of how awesome we are: stop the bad guy, get the girl, etc. It's already symptomatic of why I consider some Obsidian storylines/character interactions to be a bit more complex, with the approach to Visas/Handmaiden reinforcing the overarching narrative (the PC's ability to form bonds easily).

To put it another way: if romances are going to be expanded, I don't see weddings as being the means with which to do it. I'd prefer Bioware to consider other efforts (Ex: KotOR 2) or re-examine their approach to cheating mechanics (Ex: Choosing Miranda over Ashley). Hell, even the Jacob/Thane romances would be a good approach, if it was given sufficient resources.

Of course, my ideal scenario is for Bioware to de-emphasize romances altogether. If the resources which went into LIs could be put into achieving a level of reactivity similar to Alpha Protocol, I would trade it in a heart beat.

If Bioware had that level of reactivity, I think it would apply to the romances as well.  There were four LIs in Alpha Protocol, after all 

But the point is, how can romances be "improved?"  I'd rather not go the standard route of "gut it completely" which has been done to other game aspects.  Weddings (depending on how they were handled) could be one way (not the only way, by any means) to add more flavor to the romances.  Not just to show "how awesome you are" but to show the deepening of the bond between the characters.  

There are of course other ways.  Including, as you ponted out, improving cheating mechanics and their consequences.

[BioFan (Official)]

Wedding would be nice. I'd like to see it. We never did get to see our Alistair or Sebastian ceremonies

[Renmiri1]

Palipride47 wrote...

I would not like a wedding option, especially a Skyrim wedding option (basically a fetch quest where you throw an amulet at someone and say, "we're married now")

Bioware already has dysfunctional romance, we don't need dysfunctional marriage and dysfunctional divorce.

I wouldn't want a quest where I have to run over to a magistrate and settle an estate, custody and visitation schedules between a future viscountess and her crazed apostate former lover who blew up a Chantry.

Tehehe... Of course the mom gets most time with the baby.. unless the kid is a a mage, then Anders gets custody 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:15 .

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

OMG this thread exploded. I still remember when it was just a baby. Anyway, I think something like freeform marriage belongs more in the Sims and open world games with no real narrative structure. Otherwise it will seem out of place and odd that it isn't part of the story. But the wedding for as a scenario for drama and whatnot is in fact very popular in fiction. There was a wedding in DAO actually.
That would be excellent, and I don't see why you wouldn't be able to choose your lover in a kinda of Kashley Walenko cookie cutter way.

(biscuits)

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

If Bioware had that level of reactivity, I think it would apply to the romances as well.  There were four LIs in Alpha Protocol, after all  

True, but my relevant point was that in the grand scheme of things, what the romance is achieving might not be considered particularly noteworthy. I was impressed with the concept when I first saw it in KotOR. But aside from exchanging a kiss for sex, I can't say Bioware games have pushed the concept in any interesting direction, Morrigan's Dark Ritual aside. Now, if Bioware wanted to take romances down that direction instead, I could certainly get behind it.

But the point is, how can romances be "improved?"  I'd rather not go the standard route of "gut it completely" which has been done to other game aspects.  Weddings (depending on how they were handled) could be one way (not the only way, by any means) to add more flavor to the romances.  Not just to show "how awesome you are" but to show the deepening of the bond between the characters.  

Personally, I think that there are much more effective means of illustrating the deepening of bonds between characters or to increase interactivity, hence my dislike of this particular approach, ones which don't even need to depend on a character being a love interest in order to accomplish. Some of the best relationships in ME (and other games) for example weren't even developed with the LIs (Garrus and Male shep, Mordin, etc). But the key issue that caused this wasn't that the player couldn't marry their LI.

But If the topic is adding flavor to romances, I find conflict to be a more interesting approach. That, or tying the romances back to the overarching point of the story, hence the KotOR 2 comparison. Love interests there referenced Kreia's point that the PC was able to form force bonds to others more easily. Hell, a female exile could inadvertently cause Atton to fall to the dark and attack Disciple by rejecting him in the TSLRCM. I find the implications there to be more intriguing.

Modifié par Il Divo, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:37 .

[Aetheria]

An in-game wedding for the protagonist wouldn't necessarily be a lame tacked-on feature a la Fable/Skyrim, as long as it was treated as a story event rather than a random side quest. So if you're getting married in the midst of saving the world, it probably would be like other posters have suggested - some kind of last-minute, might-as-well-before-we-die thing.

And then, of course, your love interest actually could die, and that would be a good emotional plot twist.

Aside from that, a generic, non-plot-point wedding planning side-quest sounds boring and is the last thing I want to see in DA3. I've already had to plan a real-life wedding once and have no desire to do it again in any form.

Modifié par Aetheria, 21 septembre 2012 - 04:36 .

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

If Bioware had that level of reactivity, I think it would apply to the romances as well.  There were four LIs in Alpha Protocol, after all  

True, but my relevant point was that in the grand scheme of things, what the romance is achieving might not be considered particularly noteworthy. I was impressed with the concept when I first saw it in KotOR. But aside from exchanging a kiss for sex, I can't say Bioware games have pushed the concept in any interesting direction, Morrigan's Dark Ritual aside. Now, if Bioware wanted to take romances down that direction instead, I could certainly get behind it.

But who's to say this wouldn't take romances in a new direction?  What if a mage protagonist and a templar LI wanted to marry?  What kind of stir would that make?  Would a dalish accept an Andrastrean wedding?  What does a dwarf wedding even look like?

 The beliefs and prejudices of the various peoples in Thedas could make any public declaration of love very interesting indeed.

Personally, I think that there are much more effective means of illustrating the deepening of bonds between characters or to increase interactivity, hence my dislike of this particular approach, ones which don't even need to depend on a character being a love interest in order to accomplish. Some of the best relationships in ME (and other games) for example weren't even developed with the LIs (Garrus and Male shep, Mordin, etc). But the key issue that caused this wasn't that the player couldn't marry their LI.

There are many ways to show the strengthening of bonds among characters.  Including LIs.  But this particular thread is about weddings.  I certainly don't think marrying the LI is end-all/be-all of the relationship.  But I do think it has the potential to add something to certain relationships.

But If the topic is adding flavor to romances, I find conflict to be a more interesting approach. That, or tying the romances back to the overarching point of the story, hence the KotOR 2 comparison. Love interests there referenced Kreia's point that the PC was able to form force bonds to others more easily. Hell, a female exile could inadvertently cause Atton to fall to the dark and attack Disciple by rejecting him in the TSLRCM. I find the implications there to be more intriguing.

In DA2, my favorite romance was the Merrill rivalmance.  I enjoyed how you can have Hawke clearly care about her while at the same time disapproving of her reckless use of blood magic.  And over the course of the game they overcome this obstacle (though not without sorrow).

 Isn't that what a heroic fantasy game is about, overcoming obstacles? 

[Xilizhra]

In DA2, my favorite romance was the Merrill rivalmance.

Don't look under your Hawke's bed tonight. It's a waste of time. I assure you that I've planted no means of heinous revenge for your brutal emotional abuse whatsoever.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 septembre 2012 - 05:13 .

[TEWR]

I demand the option to hug my LIs when they're in tears!

By the Ancestors did I want to just give Merrill a big hug after she was crying because of Pol's suicidal charge into the Varterral's lair and Marethari's Abomination suicide.

Xilizhra wrote...

In DA2, my favorite romance was the Merrill rivalmance.

Don't look under your Hawke's bed tonight. It's a waste of time. I assure you that I've planted no means of heinous revenge for your brutal emotional abuse whatsoever.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 septembre 2012 - 06:07 .

[ColGali]

Wedding is a good idea. Another sign that the character is not a terminator but a human(?) being with emotions and plans.

[Deemz]

My only disappointments with DA:O were that I did not get to see my wedding to Anora and that I did not get to see the cheering people when I open the door.

[Biotic_Warlock]

Trista Faux Hawke wrote...

I believe you could have an in-game wedding in Fable 3 and also in Skyrim, right? Are there any others? Unsure.


and then actually see your little character in a wedding cut-scene. 

1st part... are you insane... marriage in skyrm was rediculously pathetic.


Second part:

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

But who's to say this wouldn't take romances in a new direction?  What if a mage protagonist and a templar LI wanted to marry?  What kind of stir would that make?  Would a dalish accept an Andrastrean wedding?  What does a dwarf wedding even look like?

 The beliefs and prejudices of the various peoples in Thedas could make any public declaration of love very interesting indeed.

But do these concepts require weddings to be inherently explored? Would a dalish accept an Andrastean in the first place? The consequences of a Mage and Templar relationship can be examined without the Wedding, but far as I remember a Mage Warden and Alistair hooking up doesn't have that much relevance. The problem, like I said, is that Bioware games don't tend to give relationship problems any additional relevance. Let's worry about fixing the main problem before we start moving into other areas.

There are many ways to show the strengthening of bonds among characters.  Including LIs.  But this particular thread is about weddings.  I certainly don't think marrying the LI is end-all/be-all of the relationship.  But I do think it has the potential to add something to certain relationships.

 I don't believe anyone here thinks weddings are the only method of strengthening bonds, but there are other places Bioware can go. As you said, this particular thread is about weddings so I think it necessary to express thing's I'd prefer to see. If we have to expand on romances,  there's other ways I'm more interested in observing: tie them into the main narrative more directly, give the player a VS-style choice, make them more interactive than simply dialogue, Dark Ritual etc, etc.

But a wedding? That's not really the solution to my issue with Bioware romances. I feel it would just be an opportunity to reaffirm the whole "PC is awesome" point, which we already have enough of being the protagonist destined to save the world in most Bioware games.

In DA2, my favorite romance was the Merrill rivalmance.  I enjoyed how you can have Hawke clearly care about her while at the same time disapproving of her reckless use of blood magic.  And over the course of the game they overcome this obstacle (though not without sorrow). 
Isn't that what a heroic fantasy game is about, overcoming obstacles? 

To an extent, but that's actually one of my less enjoyable aspects of heroic fantasy, hence why I've always made frequent comparisons to games like KotOR 2, Alpha Protocol (Rome sequence), Mass Effect's Virmire Survivor, The Darkness, and more recently Spec Ops the line. There's alot of things I love about Bioware games, but they have potential to move far beyond the overcoming obstacles tale. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing Bioware move into the darker areas of storytelling, but perhaps without ME3's nonsensical climax.

Modifié par Il Divo, 21 septembre 2012 - 02:36 .