585 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

Xilizhra wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Isn't the whole idea of the romance subplots to be... well.. romantic? So why do so many of you ask for a potential wedding, to be a disaster and end in misery? Doesn't that defeat the entire purpose? If you want hopelessnes and despair that is all fine and dandy, but let the romance live in the romance plot dammit! If anything, the wedding (or jsut the romance subplot) should be that glimmer of light that gives the PC hope, in an otherwise dark world.

Nah, the purpose of the romantic subplots is as numerous as there are players. Without getting spoilerific, other games have done an excellent job playing with the idea of killing supporting characters to get at the Player, making them more invested in the experience. Of course, in order for killing the love interest to feel meaningful, it would also be necessary to have a good amount of romantic content in the first place to build a connection between the two.

Yes, but I don't think seething hatred towards Bioware specifically is what they want to be going for.

Also true. Even if I think the idea could be interesting, I'm guessing there would be far more criticism than praise from fans.

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 septembre 2012 - 01:34 .

[Xilizhra]

Deservedly so. It's an unnecessarily painful idea.

[demonic_cookie]

No. No weddings, no houses in country, no white picket fence, no 2.5 kids. Don't get me wrong, I love Bioware romances, but the game is about killing things and being a hero (or an idiot who always messes up no matter what choice s/he makes, like in DA2 ).

Besides, in game development it's always a question of resources. So, just to get it out there: I'd rather have a "punch yourself in the stomach" side quest than a wedding side quest.

Give us modding tools, I say. The modders will do the rest...

[lil yonce]

Marriage doesn't have to be a gateway to suburbia, demonic_cookie. It could be arranged for or elected by the protagonist for any number of currently unseen, unthought-of, and plot-related reasons.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 septembre 2012 - 05:49 .

[BouncyFrag]

Dubozz wrote...

Weddings? No thanks. I'm sure resources could be spend on more important things.

[mousestalker]

What would be really great is a wedding on dragon back!

[demonic_cookie]

Youth4Ever, the OP's question wasn't "how would you feel to have your protagonist marry someone for interesting plot reasons". It was about tying the knot with the LI and then "seeing your little character in a wedding cutscene". I extrapolated.

[demonic_cookie]

Trista Faux Hawke, I actually AM into romances BW puts in their game. And I reject the notion that liking the romances=wanting the characters to get married. I'm interested in the romance because I'm interested in the characters in the romance, not because I want to see a marriage cutscene. Marriage doesn't equal suburbia, but equating love and romance with marriage is a very suburban attitude and as a gamer I still prefer the development money be spent elsewhere. That stomach-punching quest sounds really good right about now.

You asked for opinions. This is mine.

Modifié par demonic_cookie, 29 septembre 2012 - 06:02 .

[Dessalines]

I agree to this. I love the use of time in a game, but the time epically failed when it came to Hawke's relationship which is funny since it worked with Aveline's relationship. Maybe funny is not the word.

If you think about she has probably one of the best romantic stories in Bioware game, and the use of time helped to make it even more amazing.

I don't know why they cannot craft something like that for the PC.

[lil yonce]

demonic_cookie wrote...

Marriage doesn't equal suburbia, but equating love and romance with marriage is a very suburban attitude and as a gamer I still prefer the development money be spent elsewhere.

Your first post suggested you reject a western twenty-first century marriage in the medieval DA universe, not that you object to the conception of romance and marriage being closely associated.

If a marriage option is provided in a plot-related questline, as the OP proposed, I see no issue with it's inclusion.

[BioFan (Official)]

David Gaider wrote...

If the notion is that we would have a wedding during the course of the game, and then you would move onto married life... no, I doubt we'd ever do that. If the notion is that the subject of marriage could come up, that is indeed possible and we've done it before, in fact. It really depends on the context of the game. Unless a marriage was important to the plot (like, say, the City Elf Origin wedding in DAO), it's something that will likely always be consigned to the "happily/unhappily ever after" part once the game is done.

I'm ok with that. A still of the couple might be nice though... 

[demonic_cookie]

Your first post suggested you reject a western twenty-first century marriage in the medieval DA universe, not that you object to the conception of romance and marriage being closely associated.

I was rejecting a western 21st century idea of what true love is. Meaning, marriage, kids, and a house together.

If a marriage option is provided in a plot-related questline, as the OP proposed, I see no issue with it's inclusion.

Okay, let's count the issues:

1. It will single out a limited number of romances. Not every character will want to be married (Isabela, anyone? Zevran? Morrigan?), not every character will be able to get married (human marrying an elf? Probably not.) That inevitably leads to the perception of one romance being "truer" than the other, because 21st century western bias works like that. See for reference: marrying Alistair as seen by some of their fans.

2. It will once again exclude same-sex couples. You can say that Thedas has same-sex marriage, but that is just a ridiculous notion and I will never believe it. In a pre-industrial society marriage is for reproduction, not love.

3. It will take valuable resources away from the actually important stuff. Like the actual plot.

I have no problem with marriage as it was executed in City Elf Origin. That was interesting. I have no problem having to arrange a marriage during the course of the game to secure an alliance for political reasons. Marriage as a culmination of a romance with your LI is unnecessary, exclusionary, and should be relegated to ending slides, headcanon, mods, and fanfiction.

[lil yonce]

[quote]I was rejecting a western 21st century idea of what true love is. Meaning, marriage, kids, and a house together. [/quote]
And I stated the twenty-first century model does not have to exist in the DA universe. I can understand your rejection of it, but that conception does not categorically invalidate marriage in DA.

[quote]Okay, let's count the issues:

1. It will single out a limited number of romances. Not every character will want to be married (Isabela, anyone? Zevran? Morrigan?), not every character will be able to get married (human marrying an elf? Probably not.) That inevitably leads to the perception of one romance being "truer" than the other, because 21st century western bias works like that. See for reference: marrying Alistair as seen by some of their fans.

2. It will once again exclude same-sex couples. You can say that Thedas has same-sex marriage, but that is just a ridiculous notion and I will never believe it. In a pre-industrial society marriage is for reproduction, not love.

3. It will take valuable resources away from the actually important stuff.

I have no problem with marriage as it was executed in City Elf Origin. That was interesting. I have no problem having to arrange a marriage during the course of the game to secure an alliance for political reasons. Marriage as a culmination of a romance with your LI is unnecessary, exclusionary, and should be relegated to ending slides, headcanon, mods, and fanfiction.[/quote]

1. A fan's opinion of what marriage is does not determine the definition of true love nor purpose of marriage in the DA universe.

2. If a marriage option exists in a questline, it is likely it will be restricted to one or two characters. Exclusion is inevitable and not limited to same-sex couples.

3. Not if it contributes to the plot.
[/quote]

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 septembre 2012 - 08:28 .

[demonic_cookie]

1. You seem to think the DA universe exists on its own. It doesn't. It's a piece of fiction, and a piece of fiction needs to be viewed in the context of environment which produced it.

2. There is a huge difference between "excluded because it's not in-character for this NPC to want marriage" and "excluded because your protagonist is the wrong gender." Isabela would have never married anyone. Anders would jump on the chance of marriage, but would only be able to marry a female character. And that only happens for same-sex couples.

3. And I see no way in which that could happen as a culmination of a LI relationship. Without being even more exclusionary and obnoxious, that is. Oh, so not only are you able to marry this one LI, but it's also a big deal in the plot? I don't see how that's disproportionate time and resources spent on one character at all </sarcasm>.

Give us a plot about marrying one of the siblings in a noble house. Make it about intrigue and political gain. That is all good. But having a marriage as a culmination of a LI relationship - as I said: unnecessary, exclusionary, and should be kept to mods, headcanon and fanfic.

[lil yonce]

1. So you're saying that because some fans think marriage between a protagonist and LI exists only to validate their love, that's all marriage can ever be in the DA universe? I disagree.

2. You're assuming that every eligible character will be bisexual. That may not be the case. And responses to the marriage do not have to be seismic, only measurable.

3. Perhaps the protagonist marries a mage companion as a statement against the Chantry's restriction of familial interaction in Circles. Maybe bridges with a supporter of the Inquisitor are burned as a result of that action, or perhaps s/he gains support by the action from another faction.

So little is known about the plot, the Inquisitor, and the "gathering allies" system that is difficult to invent a scenario, but again, there may be currently unseen, unthought-of, plot related reasons to include marriage to an LI.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 septembre 2012 - 09:13 .

[demonic_cookie]

1. I'm saying that, given the context of our culture, it's dishonest to say that allowing marrying one character but not the other does not convey more importance to the marriable character.

2. And having the character not only be heterosexual-only but also marriageable is not at all exclusionary, I suppose? There is no measurable equivalent of marriage for same-sex romances in DA, or in real life. Marriage is marriage; just try saying "sure, you can marry him as a woman, but you get an extra fetch quest as a man" and see how ridiculous that sounds.

3. And if I don't like that mage companion I don't get to see that plot-significant content, or have that ally? Wow, that sounds like such fun.

there may be currently unseen, unthought-of, plot related reasons to include marriage to an LI.

And I gave you my reasons for not thinking that would work. If you think those reasons are not important, you're welcome to your own opinion.

[iSignIn]

laecraft wrote...

A wedding ceremony between characters? Only if a dragon attacks during the wedding and kidnaps the groom. Then you can go on a quest to save your fiance from the dragon.

At the same time, the local king, doubting your ability to combat the dragon (you did let it snatch the groom from under your nose after all, and nobody cares that you got entangled in your wedding dress), issues a reward for everyone who can save your fiance - two chests of gold and marrying the groom instead of you. So now you have to compete against them all.

In the process, you find out that your fiance is actually a bastard child of the king and the king sent the dragon to the wedding in hopes of giving his kid a better chance for a wife.

Only if you can convince the dragon (via Magic or whatever) to eat the king.

[Palipride47]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Marriage doesn't have to be a gateway to suburbia, demonic_cookie. It could be arranged for or elected by the protagonist for any number of currently unseen, unthought-of, and plot-related reasons.

But....but....it would be so much more fun if it was! 

Hawke and LI decorate a new nursery, throw dinner parties, blow up a Chantry and run away together......

[Dasher1010]

IMO, I'd really like to see a wedding scene go wrong where the potential for a dead LI is a very real possibility.

[lil yonce]

1. I'm saying that, given the context of our culture, it's dishonest to say that allowing marrying one character but not the other does not convey more importance to the marriable character.

It is not dishonest. Marriage does not validate love. It does not make one love "truer" than any other. The near fifty percent divorce rate in the US demonstrates this.

Alistair is not more important or better than Morrigan, yet he is eligible for marriage and she is not.

2. And having the character not only be heterosexual-only but also marriageable is not at all exclusionary, I suppose? There is no measurable equivalent of marriage for same-sex romances in DA, or in real life. Marriage is marriage; just try saying "sure, you can marry him as a woman, but you get an extra fetch quest as a man" and see how ridiculous that sounds.

Again, exclusion is not limited to same-sex couples and the eligible character may heterosexual, not playersexual. Additionally, characters that are not eligible for marriage should have their own unique arcs.

I don't think it is necessary to weigh importance or satisfaction through marriage only. Alistair's and Morrigan's romance arcs are equal. I wouldn't call the conclusion to Morrigan's DA:O romance a fetch quest.

3. And if I don't like that mage companion I don't get to see that plot-significant content, or have that ally? Wow, that sounds like such fun.

I never proposed that you wouldn't at all be able to interact with a potential ally because you don't romance or marry a certain companion. And again, the impact it is not seismic, only measurable and not significant when choices with your choosen LI impact the game in their own way.

And I gave you my reasons for not thinking that would work. If you think those reasons are not important, you're welcome to your own opinion.

Marriage could simply another storytelling tool. Another way to increase player immersion and support game-world reactivity. It doesn't have to be used strictly as a statement of true love or be agreed to for political reasons.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 02 octobre 2012 - 03:50 .

[Palipride47]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Marriage could simply another storytelling tool. Another way to increase player immersion and support game-world reactivity. It doesn't have to be used strictly as a statement of true love or be agreed to for political reasons.

Agreed. It worked for City Elf origin. That was neither a marriage of love, or a poltical play, merely tradition. And it ended badly, so it was a storytelling device. But I see where there might be a concern that you get something when you follow a romance vs. not romancing anyone, and that is unfair to those players who don't do the romances. 

That is why the marriages might only work in that way. Although, one could make an argument regarding that DLC "chaste marriage" that you can have with Sebastian. However, that was not a storytelling device per se and added no meaning to marriage itself, IMO. 

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Meh. I'm already married in real life. Why the hell would I want to get married in a video game? :-D