353 réponses à ce sujet

[Default137]

ALRIGHT.

Its been TWO MONTHS but these forums FINALLY accepted my serial-key.

SO, now that I can actually post on these forums, I have to ask.

Did anyone else find Alistars behavior at Landsmeet totally character breaking? For the entire game, I had been convincing him we had to be Wardens, we had to do WHATEVER it took to beat back the Blight, I worked my butt off trying to get him to man up, heck he was even totally and utterly in love with my character, and did almost everything she told him to do.

Then all of a sudden we hit Landsmeet, I beat Loghain in a fight, and the other Warden starts talking about how he would make a formidable Warden if he survived the Joining, and I figure thats a farking brilliant plan, I agree totally, because this party has been all about doing whatever it takes to beat back the Blight.

And all of a sudden, Alistar goes into a hissy fit about how this is not something a Warden would do, how he's disappointed in me, and storms off, which in my game just ruined any character he might have built up, yeah, I could understand him being slightly angry with me, because to him Loghain killed Duncan, but I just spent the last several hours helping him get over that, and beating into his thick skull we needed to do WHATEVER it takes to survive.

I dunno, I just felt very disappointed with this outcome, it didn't feel natural, but felt forced, like Bioware was worried having two tanks in the party would complicate things, or they didn't want to have to come up with lines for Loghain and Alistar to yell at each other with, it didn't feel like it fit the story at all, but rather was just done for gameplay reasons.

Anyone else feel the same?

( And yes, this is two months late, for some reason this site refused to accept my code until just right now, I've tried everything, copying it to clipboard, checking it hundreds of times, all sorts of crazy stuff, and it would just never register as valid, I almost totally gave up, but I guess this is my Christmas present, not like it matters since the devs probably don't read these forums anymore, and won't respond. )

Modifié par Default137, 27 décembre 2009 - 06:08 .

[sidion77]

Yeah I thought it was pretty silly but he seems to have had a powerful man-crush on Duncan so I guess sparing Loghain was too much for him. Personally I think his character a bit soft but that's maybe what makes him more appealing to others.

[HarlequinDream]

At least as far as Alistair is concerned, Loghain got Duncan killed, got Cailin (Alistair's half-brother and king) killed, got all the other Gray Wardens in Ferelden killed, and tried to have the two of you killed numerous times.



I can see why he refuses to fight with Loghain.

[bas273]

But if you have hardened him and got a 100 (love) approval rating you don't expect him to cry and run away.

[HarlequinDream]

Well, even hardened, he hasn't forgotten what Loghain did. He's willing to stand as king, yes, but you've also encouraged him to look out for himself. He has no reason to trust Loghain, so it's not that big of a leap to breaking ties. Also, if he's in love with you? All the more reason to feel betrayed that you're suddenly forgiving someone who killed Duncan, Cailin, the Gray Wardens, sent assassins and bounty hunters after you...

[Eruanna Guerrein]

I can understand why Alistair couldn't bear to be a "brother in arms" with Loghain. He's willing to forgive those who hurt only him but he is not willing to forgive those who hurt someone he loves (and no, not "man love" sidion. At that point, it looks like he's going to be king (not knowing your PC could/might decide otherwise) and he has no idea that a Grey Warden is going to have to lose their life to truly defeat the archdemon. It seems to me the writers did that purposely in order to make your final decisions even more complicated. I think it sucks because it would be awesome to not allow Morrigan to recreate and become the next Flemeth and still allow your PC and Alistair to live, but then that would be too happily ever after for BioWare it seems.

[Cybercat999]

Well, its Alistair, what do you expect? He is the kind of guy you say "yes dear", pat on the head and enjoy his Shield Bash; not someone you can actually discuss with or rely on.

[Endurium]

He's not my favorite guy, for sure. In the game I just finished I did the right thing by bringing Loghain in to redeem himself. Meanwhile Anora had Alistair executed. Ah, satisfaction. (Please don't hate me ladies.)

[HarlequinDream]

I'm fond of Alistair, but my next two characters after my female mage won't be. Depending on how you play the game and what sort of personality you feel your character has, he can be seen many ways.

[Cybercat999]

Endurium wrote...

He's not my favorite guy, for sure. In the game I just finished I did the right thing by bringing Loghain in to redeem himself. Meanwhile Anora had Alistair executed. Ah, satisfaction. (Please don't hate me ladies.)

I prefer to persuade them to get married. They deserve each other. That scene when Anora comes and says how her future husband is pouting upstairs is priceless.

[Freestorm Skinn]

In my second playthrough, I hardened Alastair and convinced him and Anora to marry, and spared Loghain. He left in a huff, and man, was he frosty to me in the celebrations after everyone survived the fight with the archdemon.

[Hoylander]

I agree, actually I though a few other things at the end of the game was a bit too drastic as well.

[Sabriana]

I agree with the OP. He should never be allowed to leave the Grey Wardens, it negates everything Duncan said in Ostagar. It even negates the Warden Oath. It makes Jory's murder at Duncan's hands a senseless slaying. No matter what he feels, even if he wants to leave the group, I'm okay with that. But I want his arse on the tower fighting the archdemon. If not with my PC, then alone, or with another group. He knows full well that Ferelden needs all the GWs it can get.

I also wouldn't mind offing Loghain's head if the suggestion came from anyone else but the senior Grey Warden, Riordan. Anyone with at least a little power of logic and sense can at least pause and think about why the man whose friend (Duncan), and whose sisters/brothers in arms were practically slaughtered, and who suffered imprisonment and torture at Loghain's hands would put up such a suggestion.

I also find it proper punishment for Loghain to slay the demon. He can sacrifice himself for the country he loves so much that it blinded him and made him power-mad. Of course, no statue for him, no hero-revernce. I also dislike Anora very much, so off to the tower she goes. Unfortunately, that leaves me with the only option to declare Alistair the Deserter as King instead of letting him become the useless drunk he deserves to become. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to support the man who turned his back on the country in its hour of greatest need, but there are no other options, unfortunately.

Loghain's punishment is to lose titles and all royal power, he is being forced to become that which he despises most. He becomes exactly that which he hunted and haunted during the whole campaign, a Grey Warden. He is now tainted, and will die fighting Darkspawn in the Deep Roads. He becomes a Grey Warden, an organisation with strong ties to Orlais, of all places.

Alistair never grasps the true meaning of being a Grey Warden. For him it is as much the glory and honor as it is for Jory, he just has a major hang-up with Duncan, and therefore does what the man says without complaint. Grey Wardens do everything it takes to get rid of the archdemon, heck, they don't even forbid blood-magic. Alistair doesn't understand any of this, hence his hissy-fit about using Jowan, when allowing Isolde to atone by sacificing herself.

[Lotion Soronarr]

It didn't comes as a surprise to me. Alistair is clearly not the type that will do ANYTHING. He has lines he won't cross, and you're crossing them.



In fact, he warns you that he will NOT fight with Loghain.

Alistair never grasps the true meaning of being a Grey Warden.

Do you? That's just it. You're so sure you know what a Grey Warden should be that you don't even consider he could be right.

And you fail to consider he strongly believes he is right.



It's natural that when two strong opposing views collide, there will be fallout.





In fact, it's Loghains admission to the Wardens seems forced to me. His sudden and retarded change of mind, Riordans appearance and suggestion and Loghians little speech before you off him.

[MKATAKM]

The reason is simple, Alistair cannot be side-by-side with someone he hates. Hate is not logical, nor pragmatic. But it is one of things that define us.

[Sabriana]

Replay Ostagar and listen to Duncan. Read and/or listen closely. That will tell you what is expected of true Grey Wardens. Listen to the oath again. Alistair doesn't grasp it at all, even though he speaks it. My PC gets told that she has to put the slaughter of her whole house on the back-burner because the blight is what is important. Duncan tells her it is 'far' more important than the butchering of her family, lover, and friends/servants. You may hear something different, but that's how I understand what is repeated over and over. We do whatever it takes. No disclaimers, or restrictions, or exceptions.

There is no personal line in the Grey Wardens. Blood magic is allowed, murder is allowed, everything is allowed as long as it wipes out the archdemon. Alistair forsook having 'personal lines' when he joined. If Jory has to die, so does Alistair. No two sets of rules should apply.

He doesn't have to fight side by side with my girl and her group, but I want him fighting for Ferelden. His half-brother dies doing just that, and so does Duncan and the rest of the Grey Wardens in Ostagar. Yes, they were betrayed, but they fought and died nevertheless. Instead, he runs and hides behind his righteous indignation. Something he gave up (supposedly) when he joined the GW.

My human noble would be outraged should the Senior Grey Warden suggest that Howe joins up. She might very well refuse to fight side by side with Howe, but she would never forsake Ferelden. I'm just throwing that in, because that will inevitably brought up, even though Howe is a sniveling coward, and Loghain is not.

[SarEnyaDor]

I'm on Alistair's side on this, I only spared Loghain for the achievement.

Really, it is stupid to trust Loghain at that point. You only do it because you are 1) meta-gaming or 2) hate Alistair and like to see him upset. Those are the only logical reasons to choose a man who abandoned the king - his son-in-law!!, sold Ferelden citizens into slavery, poisoned Arl Eamon, and instigated an uprising in the mages tower.

Only the Dalish and Dwarves had their own problems, every other thing you had to do in this game is cleaning up after Loghain!

No one can honestly say that they, as a character, after spending months fighting this rat-bastard and trying to squash the Blight that he allowed to flourish all of sudden thinks it's a swell idea to work with this man. Remember that at this point your character DOES NOT KNOW that a Grey Warden must be sacrificed.

So, you choose this ending because you are working with knowledge your character does not have, or you do it just to ****** off Alistair and break him, or you are a supremely naive-SpongeBob-esque character who thinks that everyone can just get along and chase jellyfish together into eternity.....

Mr. Spock would fail to see the logic in this decision.


edited to add-> plus, let's not forget Sophia Dryden... forcing that political enemy to become a Grey Warden turned out really well, didn't it?

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 27 décembre 2009 - 12:53 .

[ResoluteOne]

The entire story has been about how Logain destroyed the Wardens and has utterly failed to confront the blight.   Alistair has complained about this the entire time and suggested from the begining ways of getting rid of him.  It was the entire reason he tells you to even go to Redcliffe.

But you think he is the pansy when he stands up to you because you made the weak choice of sparing this enemy?  Reorden's suggestion from left field is the idea of someone desperate for another resource and ally.  Alistair's reaction is one of strength of princple.

[MKATAKM]

I see Sabriana is a very reasonable person. But Alistair is not, he is an emotional one. And hate is one of the very strong emotions. The one which drags its owner to the dark side eventually. Remember what Master Yoda said about Anakin's hate when Obi-Wan attempted to recruit him:)

Modifié par MKATAKM, 27 décembre 2009 - 12:56 .

[LynxAQ]

Wasnt out of character as far as I am concerned. Alistair is a little child. If he doesnt get his way he will throw his toys out of the pram, and thats exactly what he did here. You better off with Loghain, ad have Alistairs head chopped off, everybody is happy!

[MKATAKM]

LynxAQ wrote...
... Alistair is a little child...

Anakin was too, look what he became.

[LynxAQ]

ResoluteOne wrote...

The entire story has been about how Logain destroyed the Wardens and has utterly failed to confront the blight.   Alistair has complained about this the entire time and suggested from the begining ways of getting rid of him.  It was the entire reason he tells you to even go to Redcliffe.

But you think he is the pansy when he stands up to you because you made the weak choice of sparing this enemy?  Reorden's suggestion from left field is the idea of someone desperate for another resource and ally.  Alistair's reaction is one of strength of princple.

Disagree. Rioldan did exactly what Duncan would of done. Alistairs reaction was nothing more than blinded vengeance, so blinded he couldnt see any logic. Also remember Alistair has this deluded fool notion that GW's are honourable warriors and it is a privilege to be one, when that is the furtherest thing from the truth.

At least you where honest enough to admit that Alistair lied to you about his motivations from the start. The fact is throughout the whole recruiting army process, Alistair did not care about it, all he was waiting for was to get his vengeance. He didnt care about the blight or the arch demon, else he wouldnt abandon the fight.

[MKATAKM]

SarEnyaDor wrote...
You only do it because you are 1) meta-gaming or 2) hate Alistair and like to see him upset..
.

It is not meta-gaming when you hate Alistair? There is no real Alistair, he is as a meta-person as Loghain. LOL.

[SarEnyaDor]

Riordan has knowledge Alistair doesn't have, maybe if Riordam cared so darn much he would have pulled Alistair aside and explained the WHY of the Grey Wardens to him and AListair would have been able to see the point then, but Riordan doesn't.



Expecting Alistair to magically grok why it is so important to have one more (trecherous) Grey Warden for the big battle when two had been good enough for the past year or so is silly.

[SarEnyaDor]

MKATAKM wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...
You only do it because you are 1) meta-gaming or 2) hate Alistair and like to see him upset..
.

It is not meta-gaming when you hate Alistair? There is no real Alistair, he is as a meta-person as Loghain. LOL.

No.

Some people hate Alistair's voice, they hate his frowny face, they hate the way he waves his hands by his head in the fade as he disappears, none of that is meta-game knowledge at all....